Wiggins in clean tour win shocker?

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Dec 30, 2011
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Parrulo said:
where have we heard stuff like marginal gains and hard/more professional training stuff before?

it's all about high cadence and weight loss right?
It is plausible, as I have said before maybe it is true maybe it isnt but in comparison to the Movistar example it is a more plausible explanation which was why I raised it.

Btw I dont deny that Wiggins and Sky may dope.
 
Froome19 said:
I agree with the last part 100%, but the fact is that imo people may be more inclined to believe Sky as they have a plausible explanation for their excellence and superiority which was something which did not emerge after the Tour and the superiority but a long time before. That is the marginal gains and the extremely thorough training which they make every rider go through. In the sport of professional cycling logically every rider has the potential to achieve the best he can if he peaks specifically for a race. People doubting Arroyo and Kiryenka is not because we do not believe them capable as Arroyo and Kiryenka have shown in the pass that they are more than capable at performing at a level with the best, but rather because all 4 of those riders are performing well. That is resolved as Sky do the extreme rigorous training which does not allow riders to stray at all and therefore the chances of them being on form will increase tenfold as why should a rider not be on form if his training is spot on?
Why would Sky's training methods be so superior to everyone else's, especially compared to teams like Movistar which had been in the sport for some 30 years? The other teams also have elite coaches and DS's. Saying the ones at Sky are just that much better is exactly like saying the riders themselves are just that much better.

Their training methods resulted in a pretty crappy 2010 season, too, so they must have learned new tricks since then. Now, what can change the balance of power so quickly in professional sports? It's not warming down.
 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/jul/22/tour-de-france-bradley-wiggins#start-of-comments

"The trick of creating Wiggins 2.0 was to change the arithmetic: a rule of thumb says that a grand tour winner needs to be able to produce at least seven watts per kilo at peak aerobic output (to put that in perspective, a handy amateur racer might manage four watts/kg). For 2009, Wiggins shed 6kg (about a stone) off a frame where it was not obvious how such savings might be made. Maintaining "negative energy balance" is neither easy nor fun when your body is craving calories to compensate for the rigours of racing multiple back-to-back 200km-plus stages."

Not doping, arithmetic.

"Whoever still can't put one and one together about what happened in cycling is beyond my help."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ullrich-to-discuss-doping-in-a-book
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Froome19 said:
I agree with the last part 100%, but the fact is that imo people may be more inclined to believe Sky as they have a plausible explanation for their excellence and superiority which was something which did not emerge after the Tour and the superiority but a long time before. That is the marginal gains and the extremely thorough training which they make every rider go through. In the sport of professional cycling logically every rider has the potential to achieve the best he can if he peaks specifically for a race. People doubting Arroyo and Kiryenka is not because we do not believe them capable as Arroyo and Kiryenka have shown in the pass that they are more than capable at performing at a level with the best, but rather because all 4 of those riders are performing well. That is resolved as Sky do the extreme rigorous training which does not allow riders to stray at all and therefore the chances of them being on form will increase tenfold as why should a rider not be on form if his training is spot on?
Jonny Vaughters starting laying his plausible deniability groundwork shtick about 9 months before his first tour.
 
hrotha said:
Why would Sky's training methods be so superior to everyone else's, especially compared to teams like Movistar which had been in the sport for some 30 years? The other teams also have elite coaches and DS's. Saying the ones at Sky are just that much better is exactly like saying the riders themselves are just that much better.

Their training methods resulted in a pretty crappy 2010 season, too, so they must have learned new tricks since then. Now, what can change the balance of power so quickly in professional sports? It's not warming down.
Let's not forget that Abarcá Sports, in their Banesto incarnation, pretty much invented the template that Sky follow.
 
Dec 30, 2011
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hrotha said:
Why would Sky's training methods be so superior to everyone else's, especially compared to teams like Movistar which had been in the sport for some 30 years? The other teams also have elite coaches and DS's. Saying the ones at Sky are just that much better is exactly like saying the riders themselves are just that much better.
.
My point was not that their training methods are superior not at all.

Rather they focus on every rider and man manage him accordingly and ensure that they reach their peak form, other teams may be training in a better fashion but Sky ensure no one slips under the radar as it prone to occur in a sport which still lacks an edge of professionalism in some areas and that is why it is more likely that Sky will have 4 riders coming out good than other teams . I read a fascinatin interview which I will try to dig up where a Sky rider was commenting about how it was difficult for him to adapt as he was not used to being man managed and having a programme tailored specifically to him but rather just doing the general thing. The marginal gains point is an aside which is debatable and I probably should not have mentioned. The fact is that in professional cycling you see many riders complaining that the bike did not suit him for that season which is why they under performed etc and that is what Sky manage to eradicate at least from what I have read as they constantly monitor every detail about the rider and can ensure nothing is being inhibited in his quest for top form.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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TubularBills said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/jul/22/tour-de-france-bradley-wiggins#start-of-comments

"The trick of creating Wiggins 2.0 was to change the arithmetic: a rule of thumb says that a grand tour winner needs to be able to produce at least seven watts per kilo at peak aerobic output (to put that in perspective, a handy amateur racer might manage four watts/kg). For 2009, Wiggins shed 6kg (about a stone) off a frame where it was not obvious how such savings might be made. Maintaining "negative energy balance" is neither easy nor fun when your body is craving calories to compensate for the rigours of racing multiple back-to-back 200km-plus stages."

Not doping, arithmetic.

"Whoever still can't put one and one together about what happened in cycling is beyond my help."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ullrich-to-discuss-doping-in-a-book
Isn't it a bit sketchy to keep someone at such a low bodyweight for such a long time? Dunno how much his weight would have fluctuated in the offseason and between races, but presumably he's been at extremely low bodyfat since Paris-Nice at least.
 
taiwan said:
Isn't it a bit sketchy to keep someone at such a low bodyweight for such a long time? Dunno how much his weight would have fluctuated in the offseason and between races, but presumably he's been at extremely low bodyfat since Paris-Nice at least.
In 2009, Wiggins was said to be at 72 kg and 4% (!!!) body fat. He acknowledged that wasn't healthy and couldn't sustain it for long.

In 2012, Wiggins' weight is listed as 69 kg. I imagine he replaced his remaining body fat with helium.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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hrotha said:
In 2009, Wiggins was said to be at 72 kg and 4% (!!!) body fat. He acknowledged that wasn't healthy and couldn't sustain it for long.

In 2012, Wiggins' weight is listed as 69 kg. I imagine he replaced his remaining body fat with helium.
Again speculating, but maybe there's a technique around maintaining a skeletal level of bodyfat and avoiding sickness, which wouldn't be using banned substances. Doesn't explain unaffected /improved TTing though.

Anyhow it seems to be acknowledged that this was a project begun in 2009 on Garmin, as blackcat notes (I wonder who he was working with then?). Unless I'm misunderstanding that interview.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Froome19 said:
My point was not that their training methods are superior not at all.

Rather they focus on every rider and man manage him accordingly and ensure that they reach their peak form,
only gotta manage the 7 support (plus reserves/bubble). May as well focus on where the money is won.
 
taiwan said:
Again speculating, but maybe there's a technique around maintaining a skeletal level of bodyfat and avoiding sickness, which wouldn't be using banned substances.

Anyhow it seems to be acknowledged that this was a project begun in 2009 on Garmin, as blackcat notes. I wonder who he was working with then?
I have no idea, but if there's a substance out there doing that, and it isn't banned yet, it should be. We're talking X-Men stuff here.

Looking at Froome now and in 2008 it would seem he's on the same stuff, whatever it is.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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taiwan said:
Anyhow it seems to be acknowledged that this was a project begun in 2009 on Garmin, as blackcat notes (I wonder who he was working with then?). Unless I'm misunderstanding that interview.
I was alluding to the fact that JV seeded pieces to the press about CvdV having better testing at USPS pre season camps, better lactic acid numbers, than Armie, and more talent than Armie, but they could not tell anyone cos StrongArm would be ****ed, so the sports boffins had to do the pin *** lactic test, and tell StrongArm, "all good, your numbers are the best".

Then he gets Laurent Lefevre, and talked to Jean Marie LeBlanc, and greases the wheels for his July invite.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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blackcat said:
I was alluding to the fact that JV seeded pieces to the press about CvdV having better testing at USPS pre season camps, better lactic acid numbers, than Armie, and more talent than Armie, but they could not tell anyone cos StrongArm would be ****ed, so the sports boffins had to do the pin *** lactic test, and tell StrongArm, "all good, your numbers are the best".

Then he gets Laurent Lefevre, and talked to Jean Marie LeBlanc, and greases the wheels for his July invite.
Ah right not Wiggins specifically, the team in general... sry, nvm.
 
Jul 8, 2012
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Maxiton said:
I would petition the mods to change the title of this thread, since it is misleading. Some would call it an outright lie, but that's debatable. What isn't debatable is that it's misleading.

The only thing that was shocking about this Tour was how very blatant the doping was from Sky. Given that they were the only team so doped, it certainly points the finger at UCI and ASO complicity, which, to some, would also be shocking.

After years of struggle for a clean sport, we get this, which makes everything done by LA and his team look like great subtlety and respect for the sport by comparison.

A fair and honest title for this thread, rather than a misleading, trolling one, would be "Wiggins - A clean winner?" or something to that effect.
Where's the proof he doped, not just because you say so?
 
Mar 13, 2009
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where is the proof the 197 others in the Tour did not dope?

That is the more accurate question.

We can all ask everyone on the starting line in July when they beat their wife or boyfriend. Cos it aint one July rider in Sky costume. sorry. Or two riders. sorry. Or all 8 plus Konsta Siutsou even tho KS did not get his rest day bloodbag refill
 
Jul 8, 2012
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blackcat said:
where is the proof the 197 others in the Tour did not dope?

That is the more accurate question.

We can all ask everyone on the starting line in July when they beat their wife or boyfriend. Cos it aint one July rider in Sky costume. sorry. Or two riders. sorry. Or all 8 plus Konsta Siutsou even tho KS did not get his rest day bloodbag refill
But the 'brown sticky stuff' isn't being thrown at the others, is it?

Why is that I wonder?
 
Mar 22, 2011
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TubularBills said:
Occam's Razor:

"when you have two competing theories that make exactly the same predictions, the simpler one is the better."

Two theories:

SKY dominated the Tour Clean.

SKY dominated the Tour Dirty.
This is quite an abuse of Occam's Razor, choosing one or the other only simplifies our personal decision and bias.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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stampedingviking said:
But the 'brown sticky stuff' isn't being thrown at the others, is it?

Why is that I wonder?
Some are busted and time served dopers, some aren't doing anything to merit the attention, some aren't being touted as the new, clean team...
 
Jul 17, 2009
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Angrylegs said:
McQuaid raised this too when talking to Harmon on ES not too long ago, when he praised Sky for proving cycling was cleaner and that the Tour could be won clean. He said their attention to detail and training regimen gave them a huge edge, allowing them to dominate this Tour and that it wanst surprising at all.

Like they actually discovered something in training regimen that has never been found before? Was an odd statement. We've heard it before though.
the discovery?

chimp paradox: Brainsford brought in Dr Steve Peters to mind mold success in training. Apparently training puts the body and mind in constant stress and no team has ever tried to manage this stress in training day in and day out.

team Sky has gone where no cycling team has gone before. They have learned to manage the chimp inside each rider.

http://www.chimpparadox.co.uk/
---------------------------------------
Do you sometimes behave irrationally or impulsively? Do you face some situations with fear and trepidation? Do feelings of self-doubt consume everyday activities?

Leading Consultant Psychiatrist, Dr Steve Peters, knows more than anyone how impulsive behaviour or nagging self-doubt can impact negatively on our professional and personal lives.

In this, his first book, Steve shares his phenomenally successful mind management programme that has been used to help elite athletes and senior managers alike to conquer their fears and operate with greater control, focus and confidence.

Seemingly complex concepts are made simple with the use of memorable analogies — such as the ‘chimp’, that seemingly irrational and impulsive being that inhabits our minds — and real-life case studies. Never before will you have had such a deep and clear understanding of your own behaviour and natural responses to certain people or situations.

This knowledge, combined with simple techniques that can be easily incorporated into daily life, will help you to control your emotional impulses and reach your full potential, leading to success at work and a happier, harmonious professional cyclist
 
Aug 18, 2009
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Boeing said:
the discovery?

chimp paradox: Brainsford brought in Dr Steve Peters to mind mold success in training. Apparently training puts the body and mind in constant stress and no team has ever tried to manage this stress in training day in and day out.

team Sky has gone where no cycling team has gone before. They have learned to manage the chimp inside each rider.

http://www.chimpparadox.co.uk/
---------------------------------------
Do you sometimes behave irrationally or impulsively? Do you face some situations with fear and trepidation? Do feelings of self-doubt consume everyday activities?

Leading Consultant Psychiatrist, Dr Steve Peters, knows more than anyone how impulsive behaviour or nagging self-doubt can impact negatively on our professional and personal lives.

In this, his first book, Steve shares his phenomenally successful mind management programme that has been used to help elite athletes and senior managers alike to conquer their fears and operate with greater control, focus and confidence.

Seemingly complex concepts are made simple with the use of memorable analogies — such as the ‘chimp’, that seemingly irrational and impulsive being that inhabits our minds — and real-life case studies. Never before will you have had such a deep and clear understanding of your own behaviour and natural responses to certain people or situations.

This knowledge, combined with simple techniques that can be easily incorporated into daily life, will help you to control your emotional impulses and reach your full potential, leading to success at work and a happier, harmonious professional cyclist
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. Certainly, removing your inner chimp would improve your W/kg by a goodly amount. I shouldn't laugh though, I'm secretly wondering how to 'tame my chimp'. Although I'm pretty sure I worked it out shortly after puberty :eek:
 
Jun 18, 2012
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Geordieracer said:
The POINT is that there is nothing to suggest wiggins is doping
NOTHING all the increases in performance can be explined by certain things (too many to mention)
Its a free world i,m expressing my point , supporting someone whom i believe to be clean
I,m not even a huge fan on the ocasions we have met ive found him quite Aloof
There is. To be one of the top 10 riders in the world, you're doping. Simple as that. And a good doping program.

You really don't know him nor does anyone else. You have no idea what someone will do to win. Nor the huge ego it takes to ride at that level. a long time pursuit rider doesn't lend itself to a top GC rider, sorry, don't care how much weight loss you have. When you loose weight, you loose power. Pure fact. I don't care how much spin you put on your training program, it falls short in explanation. There is nothing new in sports science. It's like books on happiness, there are thousands of them, but yet no one still achieves true nirvana. Every trainer has the answer, but the results are the same.
 
Jul 16, 2011
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Geordieracer said:
Lad Ha Ha its a long long time since i,ve been called that
I,m on here today only , got too much life to live to spend any quality time on here
Just wanted to put my view out in the open , I dont have countless hours to type or copy and paste endless points and arguments :D
You're posting on the, perhaps, most cynical cycling forum in the world, basically asking people to take you word, that BW is clean.... kind of naive I think.
 

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