Wiggins speaks about drugs

[poupou]

Who stare at goats?

There is people who have to look at "men who stare at goats" !

 

[luckyboy]

The psychology of French riders now is that they do not believe they can win, so they never will. If you do not believe you can make 10th then you are going to find 11th very hard work indeed.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/france-on-the-rise



Also, everyone seems to be forgetting Wiggo's weird blood test results..

That's a mighty handy spike in hemoglobin on the final rest day before the final slew of mountain stages and the TT huh?

 

[python]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/france-on-the-rise



Also, everyone seems to be forgetting Wiggo's weird blood test results..

That's a mighty handy spike in hemoglobin on the final rest day before the final slew of mountain stages and the TT huh?

weird test results were armstrong's.

i call this not enough info and it would be right to ask why.

 

[luckyboy]

The link and the chart say Wiggins, not Armstrong.

Hemoglobin falls during a Grand Tour (if you are clean). It doesn't just suddenly go up again for no reason. Armstrong's Hb was up and down - stuck around the 14 mark during the Tour- his Hb was higher at the end than it was at the beginning.


Even if that unusually high result at Sion can be explained by "smoking, dehydration due to diarrhea/sweating, carbon monoxide exposure, living at a high altitude, anabolic steroid use, congenital heart disease, Scarring and thickening of the lung tissue, failure of the right side of your heart, kidney disease and polycythemia vera.", it still doesn't explain how his Hb was at the same level at the end as it was half way through.

 

[python]

The link and the chart say Wiggins, not Armstrong.

Hemoglobin falls during a Grand Tour (if you are clean). It doesn't just suddenly go up again for no reason. Armstrong's Hb was up and down - stuck around the 14 mark during the Tour- his Hb was higher at the end than it was at the beginning.

i know and im telling whats wield and what not in my book. not enough info to pontificate.

 

[blackcat]

The link and the chart say Wiggins, not Armstrong.

Hemoglobin falls during a Grand Tour (if you are clean). It doesn't just suddenly go up again for no reason. Armstrong's Hb was up and down - stuck around the 14 mark during the Tour- his Hb was higher at the end than it was at the beginning.

and Wigans was pushing 16.

 

[luckyboy]

16? Where did you see that?


And its debating, not pontificating. If it's not proof of doping, then you have to say it's highly suspicious.

 

[blackcat]

his second point in the Tour, where it jumps, before going back down. It is high 15, I dont have the stats, what is it, 15.8, pushing 16 then it goes back. This is not normal. Ofcourse, nice spinning by Wigans, learnt from the best in StrongArm.

 

[luckyboy]

Oh yeah, the Sion one. I should've looked at the numbers before posting

 

[python]

16? Where did you see that?


And its debating, not pontificating. If it's not proof of doping, then you have to say it's highly suspicious.

if you start with the mind set of highly suspicious you will find what you are looking for as highly suspicious. as i mentioned, there is not enough information in that chart compared to armstrongs. no % rets, only four data points, no confirming variables. the right question to ask would WHY wiggins released something thats interpretable and useless one way or the other ? why is he engaging in the pr with useless data ?

but i'll leave you to 'debate' this useless chart with those who agree with you.

 

[blackcat]

you are right at the paucity of data points. But it is divergent from his Giro curve (if one can plot a curve with 4 points).

It is more than suspicious where his hemoglobin pushes 16, which is a number that should bring alert in itself.

 

[luckyboy]

if you start with the mind set of highly suspicious you will find what you are looking for as highly suspicious. as i mentioned, there is not enough information in that chart compared to armstrongs. no % rets, only four data points, no confirming variables. the right question to ask would WHY wiggins released something thats interpretable and useless one way or the other ? why is he engaging in the pr with useless data ?

but i'll leave you to 'debate' this useless chart with those who agree with you.

If there was more information, it'd probably look worse in my opinion.

Anyway this is point I was trying to make - "It is more than suspicious where his hemoglobin pushes 16, which is a number that should bring alert in itself."

The Hb should be lower as the Tour progresses. I just don't see, logically, how anyone can argue with that. That is what happens in clean guys

And I'm not being some anti-whoever fanboy or anything. I don't paticularly like Wiggins for how he left Garmin and that debacle, but it just seems logical to call out an anomaly in the natural curve.


Say if you saw this graph of someone's Hb (excuse the unlikeliness of the values and the general crappiness)

There would be some suspicion in your mind regardless of whether there were values for reticulocytes and whatever else, right?

 

[Jim Jones]

Wiggins' DS at the time, Jonathon Vaughters, was so offended by these allegations that he came onto this forum to defend Wiggins. Hardly the actions of someone who was doping their rider. He was obviously very confident that he was clean.

If the lines move together then it's more than likely not doping. It's when they start going the wrong way that problems arise. This movement occurred simply because of the time of day the test was taken on the rest day. The fact that it quickly falls shows that it is part of a downward trend and not a blood transfusion.

Why would he bother releasing his number after the tour if he thought they would show doping? This is not like Armstrong who had already commited to making them public so was stuck with it.

At the time of their release, Wiggins numbers were widely praised.

"Wiggins' values point to cleaner peloton"
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-values-point-to-cleaner-peloton

 

[goggalor]

LOL, that graph is so funny. Here's another version of it I made in paint.

 

[Jim Jones]

As I say, if the lines move together then it's more than likely NOT doping.

Johnathon Vaughters says the values with the higher numbers was from a test taken in the morning when the crit is always higher. The rest of the tests were post stage. That's why there is a difference.

 

[blackcat]

As I say, if the lines move together then it's more than likely NOT doping.

Johnathon Vaughters says the values with the higher numbers was from a test taken in the morning when the crit is always higher. The rest of the tests were post stage. That's why there is a difference.

I really dont give a fu<k what Vaughters' said. I don't trust him. Too much disinformation and obfuscation.

First, they wanted us to believe they had Wigans tagged at 80kg watts, then climbing for the power to weight of 70kgs with the ouput at the 80.

Then they were seeding talking points in the meedja, about Wigans losing all this weight. And Vaughters was not at all concerned at his hemoglobin topping out nigh on 16, going up during the Tour.

So, you believe JV and Wigans. You also have about 50 different accounts, and some multi-personality problems dude.

 

[Winterfold]

That chart will not convince anyone who thinks he is doping that he is not, nor will it convince anyone that gives him the benefit of the doubt that he is.

It's a bit of PR.

 

[Jim Jones]

I really dont give a fu<k what Vaughters' said. I don't trust him. Too much disinformation and obfuscation.

First, they wanted us to believe they had Wigans tagged at 80kg watts, then climbing for the power to weight of 70kgs with the ouput at the 80.

Then they were seeding talking points in the meedja, about Wigans losing all this weight. And Vaughters was not at all concerned at his hemoglobin topping out nigh on 16, going up during the Tour.

So, you believe JV and Wigans. You also have about 50 different accounts, and some multi-personality problems dude.

The crit is always higher in the morning because you've been a sleep all night and recovered somewhat, plus the body is not as hydrated yet. That's why people often have puffy skin in the mornings - the blood is always thicker earlier in the day. And the body is not like a computer with nice straight lines - there is always to be some give and take.

Vaughters would not take the highly unusual step of coming onto an internet forum if he was not sure that Wiggins was clean.

Everybody who has studied his numbers say they are clean. All the Denmark guy said is that usually the trend is down. He was much more suspicious of Armstrong's numbers.

Wiggins numbers were praised throughout the peloton.

 

[Big GMaC]

Wiggins' DS at the time, Jonathon Vaughters, was so offended by these allegations that he came onto this forum to defend Wiggins. Hardly the actions of someone who was doping their rider. He was obviously very confident that he was clean.

If the lines move together then it's more than likely not doping. It's when they start going the wrong way that problems arise. This movement occurred simply because of the time of day the test was taken on the rest day. The fact that it quickly falls shows that it is part of a downward trend and not a blood transfusion.

Why would he bother releasing his number after the tour if he thought they would show doping? This is not like Armstrong who had already commited to making them public so was stuck with it.

At the time of their release, Wiggins numbers were widely praised.

"Wiggins' values point to cleaner peloton"
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-values-point-to-cleaner-peloton

So you join in march, but have search all the way back to when JV was around?

to quote publicus: I spy

 

[Hugh Januss]

It's almost been a year now since this tool has been trolling away hasn't it? I think he'll stick around even after his Mancrush retires.

I think he came with the forum software that CN used to start up this forum.

 

[Polish]

"Believing that Crap"

The anti-doping crusaders have done more damage to the sport than good imo
Young riders need to stop believing the doping "gives another gear" crap that the anti-doping zealots so often preach.

Brad is "telling it like it is" bravo. Stop believing the crap. The truth is doping = fail.

How can we possible compete with these guys, they've got another gear.' You actually start believing that crap after a while. I believed that there was no way of getting top ten in the Tour if you didn't take drugs. But then......everything changed for me."

However, is "stop believing the doper crap" by itself enough of a boost to
transform a rider into a Grand Tour Danger Man? Mind-set change enough?

Seems to me there must be more to it....stuff like
Higher cadence
Weighing one's food with a gram scale
Losing weight
training training training
pre-riding stages

 

[bobbins]

The only riders who don't take drugs are the ones that never made it as pro cyclists and have to while away their days *****ing on internet forums about a subject they know nothing about.

 

[BroDeal]

Four data points is not enough when they are that close in value.

It is interesting to look at the riders who placed ahead of Wigans.

The first came out of a teamwide doping program and was then hired by a manager who came out of the same program and was running his own teamwide program, at least he was while FLandis was on his team. That manager's program was evidently still ongoing as evidenced by the use of illegal infusions during last year's Tour.

The second place finisher has a brother who was connected to the same doping operation as the first place finisher. He was on a team run by a confessed doper. Other star members of that team were also connected to that doping operation. The team manager threatened Jorge Jaksche, a former team member, that if he talked then the manager would make sure he would never return to the sport.

The third place finisher's blood profile shows manipulation, and he was on the same team as the first place finisher. He also has a history of dope use and a relationship with the same dodgy team manager of the first rider.

That leaves Wigans in fourth place. He came out of nowhere to place fourth, the same way his teammate did the previous year. We are supposed to believe that Wigans was the top clean rider, the real winner of the Tour de France? Consider me highly suspicious.

 

[BroDeal]

Young riders need to stop believing the doping "gives another gear" crap that the anti-doping zealots so often preach.

Yeah. Dope does not work. It is all a fantasy. Those studies that show the performance increases of EPO and blood doping, garbage! In fact there is not reason to dope at all. The pros who risk their careers if they get caught are idiots to do so for something that is completely ineffective. They should all be eating rice cakes instead.

 

[Big GMaC]

The anti-doping crusaders have done more damage to the sport than good imo
Young riders need to stop believing the doping "gives another gear" crap that the anti-doping zealots so often preach.

Brad is "telling it like it is" bravo. Stop believing the crap. The truth is doping = fail.



However, is "stop believing the doper crap" by itself enough of a boost to
transform a rider into a Grand Tour Danger Man? Mind-set change enough?

Seems to me there must be more to it....stuff like
Higher cadence
Weighing one's food with a gram scale
Losing weight
training training training
pre-riding stages

Stop believing the crap? I think that is what you need to be doing!

EPO = Wins
Blood Doping = Wins
Recovery doping = Winning more frequently