Will Contador Be Juiced Up Again Upon His Return

[Walkman]

Check out my "fun on Velocipede Salon" thread, where Evans, Green, Hesjedal, and such are called out for bringing blood vector doping to MTB.

Not saying Evans isn't/wasn't doping. Just that comparing him with AC is like comparing random GC-rider during 1999-2005 with Armstrong. Kind of unbalanced if you ask me.

Liberty Seguros - Operación Puerto
Discovery - Do I really need to say more?
Astana - No team wanted to sign AC after 2007 (kind of weird since he wn the Tour, don't you think?!) except JB who brought him to Astana (Discovery more or less). Medical waste story during 2009 Tour.
Saxo Bank - Tested positive and was convicted

Pantani, Basso and Armstrong. Probably the three biggest doper during the last 15 years. Coached by Martinelli, Riis and Bruyneel. Guess what?! Contador has been coached by all of them.

 

[Cookster15]

also lol at the bolded proves for evans being clean.

The bolded wasn't added these to say he was clean but to explain why some see him as "the second coming" in your words or Revered by Aussies in my words. And noone has explained what happened with Popovich or Horner when they rode with other teams.

 

[the asian]

The bolded wasn't added these to say he was clean but to explain why some see him as "the second coming" in your words or Revered by Aussies in my words. And noone has explained what happened with Popovich or Horner when they rode with other teams.

May be Lotto's doctors sucked.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Thanks I do not care what people over here say I know Alberto is the best. They're just jealous

Could you please keep this fangirl act for the 'I Love Alberto' thread in the Professional Race section?

With posts like these:

Wtf

Cycling is different

Vamos Alberto and Piti!!

Shorter stages = less hard = less doping

(or something like that)

I don't think it attributes a lot to any discussion.

On topic then. Alberto looks more human than ever I must say. Or are the two others much better prepared?

In case of Valverde I am pretty sure.
Rodriguez is incredible, I can't recall him being this good in the above 2000 metres mountains. Really don't know what to think of him.

These 3 Spanjards are truly in a league of their own. To be fair, the other contenders are not that great of course taking into account the Froomster couldn't keep a 3 month peak.

 

[Lanark]

There is no equivalence between Contador and Evans. Contador was a Fuentes client, he rode for teams that were so dirty they weren't allowed at the Tour on multiple occasions (something even Evans hasn't done yet), he tested positive in 2010, he had plasticizer levels that indicate blood doping, blood-levels that can't be explained by natural causes and are in line with doping (Ashenden).

Now I doubt that Evans is clean, but to a neutral observer it's obvious why Contador is much, much more suspect. In fact, I would say there are few if any active riders with more damning evidence against them than Contador.

 

[sartoris]

Exactly. The 1988 Olympic Men's 100m is proof of that.

That was clever.

 

[sartoris]

Contador:
Unable to reproduce in 2009 Tour form in subsequent Tours. Check.
No satisfactory explanation for his reduced level in 2010 Tour. Check.
His best GT performance was in the Giro - the Italians / Italian police are not as strict on doping as the French. Check.
Being able to stay with Rasmussen in 2007. Check.
Riding for Discovery, the home of Pharmstrong. Check.
Wins the 2008 Giro after sitting on a beach. Check.

Evans:
Never picked by a dirty team to ride the Tour. Check (eg Telekom, Ulrich, 2004).
Quoted by some prominent Pros as being 'the only clean GC rider' (e.g. Boonen). Check.
Riding for Lotto who couldn't replicate Popovich's or Horner's form at Astana. Check.
Twice World Cup mountain bike champ. Check.
Highest Vo2 max ever scored in the AIS (while still a mountain biker). Check.
Only GC contender to look like he was truly suffering in 2007 on climbs. Check.
Won the stage to Mount Wellington in 1999 while still a mountain biker and at just 22 years of age. Check.

Ferrari took an interest in Evans when referred by Tony Rominger in his mountain bike days. It is well documented Evans impressed Ferrari further when he did some repeat mountain tests. This does not automatically make him guilty of doping. Evans performance on Mount Wellington in 1999 grabbed my attention too and well before I heard Phil Liggit say it.

There's very good reasons why Evan's was so revered especially by Aussie's or Anglophiles who for many years had no GC rider's to cheer for since Phil Anderson.

This post summarises the spirit of The Clinic. I mean, everyone of us can speculate as much as we can no matter how outlandish and ludicrous our hypothesis might be. It's free and it has something cathartic about it. Good on the whole.

 

[sartoris]

Evans has a very similar career path to contador being the positive the only ( and big) difference yet he is considered by many the second coming of the baby jesus and first clean tour winner in human history (hyperbole)

so exactly what is so different about them?

riding for dirty teams? check
connections to dirty doctors? check
being up there during dirty times? check
winning big races? check

only real difference are 50 pico grams of clentuberol per liter of blood apparently.

Well said. But that's not the only difference. The main difference between AC and CE is that Contador is a better cyclist than Evans and that's that.

 

[Galic Ho]

The bolded wasn't added these to say he was clean but to explain why some see him as "the second coming" in your words or Revered by Aussies in my words. And noone has explained what happened with Popovich or Horner when they rode with other teams.

That has been explained in depth in other threads before.

Check who Popovich's best friend is. Then see when he got busted. It was the same year Popovich joined Predictor Lotto to help Cadel. Without Bruyneel and LA to cover for him, he was scared out of his mind. Remember when the feds raided his apartment? Same form drop as well. Popo gets scared easily and does the smart thing...he hops off the juice and is thus suddenly utterly useless.

Horner? Never could keep up during the second coming. His best form is when he joined Brurneel and LA, when he wasn't with Cadel anymore. Same program LA was on. How did they know LA could come back and do well? Because Horner was the same age and doing very, very well. In 2009, he was technically in better form than LA. Granted he isn't very smart, so he's easily manipulated and he has kids to feed, he's a loyal lackey. The program LA was on in his 3rd coming, Horner was on the same thing almost to the letter.

Note the theme here? Ride for Lance and Johan, career best form. Don't and you're left to your own devices, you are a different rider. Hence the confusion. It also didn't help that the DS at Lotto was skint. He refused to pay riders what they were worth...hence another reason for lowered performance. The lack of funding. Drugs cost $$$ you know!

 

[Galic Ho]

Contador:
Unable to reproduce in 2009 Tour form in subsequent Tours. Check.
No satisfactory explanation for his reduced level in 2010 Tour. Check.
His best GT performance was in the Giro - the Italians / Italian police are not as strict on doping as the French. Check.
Being able to stay with Rasmussen in 2007. Check.
Riding for Discovery, the home of Pharmstrong. Check.
Wins the 2008 Giro after sitting on a beach. Check.

Was taking a few days off before the 2008 Giro. Still training dude. No pro isn't training full time in April/May. That's a myth.

Cadel Evans in 2007? Best form he has ever had. Just as dirty as the rest. Sure Bottle suddenly found the best recovery in the final week, but Evans mitigated his time to Contador very well. Closet anyone has ever come to beating Contador. So again, another myth.

CONI??? Yeah, those Italian's sure love Spaniards!!! Maybe you forgot about Valverde and the blood bag labelled 'Piti' from Puerto? Want me to go over the list of riders the Italians have been phone tapping and cracking down on? Take a look at Lampre's mediocre results...CONI are hard on doping. Just as hard as the French. So again, another myth.

Evans:
Never picked by a dirty team to ride the Tour. Check (eg Telekom, Ulrich, 2004).
Quoted by some prominent Pros as being 'the only clean GC rider' (e.g. Boonen). Check.
Riding for Lotto who couldn't replicate Popovich's or Horner's form at Astana. Check.
Twice World Cup mountain bike champ. Check.
Highest Vo2 max ever scored in the AIS (while still a mountain biker). Check.
Only GC contender to look like he was truly suffering in 2007 on climbs. Check.
Won the stage to Mount Wellington in 1999 while still a mountain biker and at just 22 years of age. Check.

Been covered on here before...many, many times. Porte went up Mt Wellington much faster than Evans.

Highest VO2max at the AIS? Another lie. Yes, a lie. 87 ml/min/kg...nice, but no Greg Lemond. Brett Aitken scored 92 ml/min/kg. Not the highest. Another myth.

Tommeke? Was banging 16 year old girls and hitting up so many lines of coke he thought it was constantly snowing in Belgium. Not a reliable source. Thor and Tom often say stuff like that. They also think LA was clean. Another myth.

Never picked by dirty teams to ride GT's? Another myth. Rode the Giro and on debut almost won the race. Evans not being picked comes down to his 'winning' personality as a young man. Short story, he was a tool. Europeans won't tolerate that kind of attitude, especially from an Aussie. Note Cadels form on the road and improved relations with team mates happened when he calmed down, relaxed and stopped being such a highly strung manic depressant. He's a loner. His personality cost him greatly in his early career...had nothing to do with being 'clean' or 'dirty'.

Ferrari took an interest in Evans when referred by Tony Rominger in his mountain bike days. It is well documented Evans impressed Ferrari further when he did some repeat mountain tests. This does not automatically make him guilty of doping. Evans performance on Mount Wellington in 1999 grabbed my attention too and well before I heard Phil Liggit say it.

There's very good reasons why Evan's was so revered especially by Aussie's or Anglophiles who for many years had no GC rider's to cheer for since Phil Anderson.

Yeah? Revered, because he was Aussie and the only one winning.

Who else were the rampant patriots Down Under to cheer for? Michael "I too visited Ferrari once' Rogers? The man had and still does have trouble staying upright. Same way that LA was revered. He was the biggest name from said country of origin and naturally you cheer for your own. Even more so when you're a part time fan.

No, Cadel Evans, is naturally very talented. But he is no cleaner than Contador. FFS he rides for Phonak reincarnated!!! He won the Tour, like they did with Floyd. Same owner, same DS. Same career best ever form. If you wanted to make a strong case for him being super talented, you'd have quoted Aldo Sassi who compared both Basso and Evans, he star pupils. But you clearly haven't heard what he said before he passed away.

One last thing. 2007 Tour de France. Third best rider in the race. Cadel in 2007 form, heck anyone in the top 10 would smack their current day self so hard in terms of a right proper beating, it would be hilarious. Clean...far from it.

I suggest you go get your jollies else where. Cadel is no cleaner than any of the top Spaniards. Be it Contador, Samu, Valverde, or Purito.

Hearing this stuff people are putting out is ridiculous. Evans gradually improved? Contador won the Tour at 24!!! Youngest winner since Ullrich FFS! Evans first raced it @28 years. The first time he stepped onto the podium he was 30 and a half years of age. Contador will be that age NEXT YEAR. FFS ladies, keep it real. Contador makes a very, very strong case for being naturally the best. He was up there young. Evans...oh that's right, Mt Wellington and the winning personality. Check, he always had it. True...Contador had more and showed it younger. Give it a rest.

 

[Cookster15]

That has been explained in depth in other threads before.

Check who Popovich's best friend is. Then see when he got busted. It was the same year Popovich joined Predictor Lotto to help Cadel. Without Bruyneel and LA to cover for him, he was scared out of his mind. Remember when the feds raided his apartment? Same form drop as well. Popo gets scared easily and does the smart thing...he hops off the juice and is thus suddenly utterly useless.

Horner? Never could keep up during the second coming. His best form is when he joined Brurneel and LA, when he wasn't with Cadel anymore. Same program LA was on. How did they know LA could come back and do well? Because Horner was the same age and doing very, very well. In 2009, he was technically in better form than LA. Granted he isn't very smart, so he's easily manipulated and he has kids to feed, he's a loyal lackey. The program LA was on in his 3rd coming, Horner was on the same thing almost to the letter.

Note the theme here? Ride for Lance and Johan, career best form. Don't and you're left to your own devices, you are a different rider. Hence the confusion. It also didn't help that the DS at Lotto was skint. He refused to pay riders what they were worth...hence another reason for lowered performance. The lack of funding. Drugs cost $$$ you know!

ok, thanks I was not aware of al this!

 

[Galic Ho]

Thanks I do not care what people over here say I know Alberto is the best. They're just jealous

It's funny how after the rest day, Contador is the 'biggest doper' because he made the most time. Then today, Rodriguez puts 40 odd seconds into him. Of the top 3, he was the weakest today.

All of the top 3 had days where they went too hard in the wrong place and paid for it. Take Valverde's lost 50 seconds back and the race would have been different.

Contador was no dirtier as far as I can see than the others. Purito was better than I have ever seen him, but he did have a bad day. Can't say the same for those Sky boys at the Tour. They were never weak.

Saxo, Katusha and Movistar had bad days. When their GC leader needed some help and it wasn't there. Every day in the Tour Wiggins needed help, he had it and from a squad that was technically down 3 riders. Sky did something in July above and beyond what the 3 top teams and their riders have done here.

And it was far more entertaining. The World Championships will be interesting. I'd really like to see Valverde, Rodriguez and Contador working together. Poor Gilbert is going to likely be tag teamed to hell by these three. To think they're missing Samu. I'm expecting one of these 3 to be in Rainbow colours and for the first time if Rodriguez is left to cover the winning move I think he most definitely has the form to beat anyone (unlike 2009 where Spain stuffed up on the last lap).

Spanish Rider should be the next World Champion. One of the guys on the Vuelta podium. Good thing, because at the end of the day they are 3 of the classiest guys on bikes.

 

[jilbiker]

After reading Tyler's book, I have a better understanding on the importance of weight loss and wattage per weight. I always wondered why Tyler looked very sickly and skinny during the TDF. And why Lance looked so skinny during TDF his cheek bones and ribs where clearly visible. The loss of weight leads to immediate loss of power and over time, years, wattage can be built up. That TTM is shortened to months via juice.

Wrt Contador,I look at his physiology, weight, arms, cheeks during the Vuelta and I compare to previous years 2008-2010 and there is a difference. He looks more rosy and healthy and fresh now. The result? I seriously think that is why he can't maintain the burst of power in the Vuelta like before. I thought it was due to time off but after reading Tyler's book, I believe the difference is from the juice. Tyler actually talked about Ferrari who said maintaining the burst of power was connected to correct wattage/weight ratio and weight loss.

For those AC fans who think in the next coming months as AC comes to "form" he will have that long burst of power, they should think otherwise. Not unless AC gets back on the juice train. I like it that he won the Vuelta, because it will convince him that what he needs to compensate for the loss of "special" skill is bravery and smarts. Actually he did say it in his post stage 20 interview, he said he won the Vuelta through bravery, that is a code word I believe. I guess his own paniauga word.

 

[Galic Ho]

ok, thanks I was not aware of al this!

That second reply I gave...I replied to your comment because you had the most info.

End of the day, Evans is exceptionally talented. So is Contador and Valverde.

Cadel's public image, especially in Australia and other Anglo-Saxon nations, is far better than any Spaniards could ever be. It's not because he is cleaner, it's like Parrulo suggested, public opinion favours certain riders because they fall into a select bracket that unfortunately, is given more credence.

Evans has played his media hand well. He says next to nothing about doping. So does Contador and Valverde to a lesser extent. He's also been lucky regarding doping probes and testing. Then again his manager is Tony Rominger...he plays it safe. Evans also profited, like Basso from the Mapei clinic and performing at a very high standard in GT's that were far more impressive to watch. Neither beat their opponents senseless in their wins, unlike Wiggins. I don't think being Mapei Clinic guys that makes them clean, just clearly not as dirty as Sky or Wiggins and Froome. Basso and Evans have been consistent GC riders all their careers. But so has Contador, even more so.

Not working in Evans favour is his late appearance at the Tour. However, he has been very consistent. Evans would have had younger results in GT's if he had a different personality. Short story, career wise he hasn't played his cards as well in terms of wins, but he reversed that at an older age. Team selection and staying away from the guys who mud sticks to (doping angles), yes, Evans has been far more fortunate. The fact is, he's been one of the few guys to keep up with and even beat Contador and other high class Spanish riders, like Valverde and Samu. He's not that good clean that he can do that against guys who are doping. People need to extend their reasoning to EVERYONE. Not just those who it's cool to stereotype as 'doper' because of their nationality and countries rep.

Another thing. Recent years, Contador has had to win his GT's alone. Evans has had remarkable success with a few helpers who were never up to the level his GC opponents had (like CSC's 3 pronged attack in 2008). With better help and some good luck, he'd have won maybe 3 GT's in total. Maybe even 4. But that comes down to his personality again...which I did note, he improved, rectified and joined BMC and found career best form. It is about dotting the 'i' and crossing your 't'. That also plays into why Evans copped next to no criticism in 2011 for winning the Tour than Wiggins has this year. The parallels and contrast. Evans was always close. Just needed to not have the bad day, or the fall and to have enough helpers. Minor improvements, that can be considered 'clean' and not drug assisted. Wiggins is in another realm altogether. Over the Spaniards and Evans.

 

[ebandit]

thoroughbred

Well said. But that's not the only difference. The main difference between AC and CE is that Contador is a better cyclist than Evans and that's that.

your right there it's like comparing a donkey with a thoroughbred.....(i will let the reader decide which is comparable with evans)

however thread is about contador.............my thought is that he doped and still is doing so

just like evans

but remember some cyclists will always respond better to certain substances

 

[LaFlorecita]

After reading Tyler's book, I have a better understanding on the importance of weight loss and wattage per weight. I always wondered why Tyler looked very sickly and skinny during the TDF. And why Lance looked so skinny during TDF his cheek bones and ribs where clearly visible. The loss of weight leads to immediate loss of power and over time, years, wattage can be built up. That TTM is shortened to months via juice.

Wrt Contador,I look at his physiology, weight, arms, cheeks during the Vuelta and I compare to previous years 2008-2010 and there is a difference. He looks more rosy and healthy and fresh now. The result? I seriously think that is why he can't maintain the burst of power in the Vuelta like before. I thought it was due to time off but after reading Tyler's book, I believe the difference is from the juice. Tyler actually talked about Ferrari who said maintaining the burst of power was connected to correct wattage/weight ratio and weight loss.

For those AC fans who think in the next coming months as AC comes to "form" he will have that long burst of power, they should think otherwise. Not unless AC gets back on the juice train. I like it that he won the Vuelta, because it will convince him that what he needs to compensate for the loss of "special" skill is bravery and smarts. Actually he did say it in his post stage 20 interview, he said he won the Vuelta through bravery, that is a code word I believe. I guess his own paniauga word.

Are you saying he looks "more rosy and healthy and fresh" because he stopped doping or because he gained weight?

I like it that he won the Vuelta, because it will convince him that what he needs to compensate for the loss of "special" skill is bravery and smarts.

He was just lucky, it's not gonna happen a second time. He isn't gonna win a GT this way again

By the way I believe that if he doped he never stopped, I mean isn't he supposed to be a blood doper surely stopping would show up in the tests

 

[sartoris]

your right there it's like comparing a donkey with a thoroughbred.....(i will let the reader decide which is comparable with evans)

however thread is about contador.............my thought is that he doped and still is doing so

just like evans

but remember some cyclists will always respond better to certain substances

I'd say MULE vs. THORUGHBREAD. More accurate. And I don't think any of them dope.

 

[Benotti69]

I'd say MULE vs. THORUGHBREAD. More accurate. And I don't think any of them dope.

Them maybe you need to change your name to Omèrtà

 

[Walkman]

Hearing this stuff people are putting out is ridiculous. Evans gradually improved? Contador won the Tour at 24!!! Youngest winner since Ullrich FFS! Evans first raced it @28 years. The first time he stepped onto the podium he was 30 and a half years of age. Contador will be that age NEXT YEAR. FFS ladies, keep it real. Contador makes a very, very strong case for being naturally the best. He was up there young. Evans...oh that's right, Mt Wellington and the winning personality. Check, he always had it. True...Contador had more and showed it younger. Give it a rest.

Well, then we have to agree to disagree. I am one of those who thinks AC's early results is due to a good program and his later results 2007-onwards is due to a Armstrong like program with Bruyneel. I see no reason for why Bruyneel wouldn't give AC the "Armstrong treatment" when LA was gone and none of the other Disci boys seemd up to the task of be the next Tour winner.

So what I am basiclly saying is that I do think AC did dope more/more advanced that Evans. I don't have any facts with which I can back this up other than me believing that JB would countinue with what he used to do with Lance.

By the way, just a question. What are you trying to say with:

Contador won the Tour at 24!!!

That he was so talented he could win the Tour at that age? Because to me it's more of an example on how doped up he must have been seeing he almost could keep up with the Chicken in the mountains while being only 24.

 

[Parrulo]

i think we can stop the myth of the magical hog program. we all know the one who handled LA's doping was ferrari and ferrari alone.

 

[Walkman]

i think we can stop the myth of the magical hog program. we all know the one who handled LA's doping was ferrari and ferrari alone.

Yeah, but I kind of meant that JB had connections with the UCI and all that. Furthermore Tyler said Lance was two years before his competitors program-wise, I see no reason why AC wouldn't have gotten to taste that advantage. That's my point.

 

[Parrulo]

Yeah, but I kind of meant that JB had connections with the UCI and all that. Furthermore Tyler said Lance was two years before his competitors program-wise, I see no reason why AC wouldn't have gotten to taste that advantage. That's my point.

oh i have no problem believing contador was being protected by the UCI in his hog days.

hell he was even being protected in 2010 and if it weren't for that leak his positive would have most likely been hidden. thankfully it wasn't tho.

i just don't think he was on the full ferrari exclusive program. certainly not in 2009 with armstrong wanting to win the tour, i highly doubt he would let any1 other then himself get their hands on ferrari's super juice.

 

[roundabout]

Evans turned full time pro at 25. Was in the lead of the Giro with a mountain stage and a TT to go. Not the most difficult Giro, but still a GT.

Between 2002 and 2005 the only GT that he raced was the 2004 Vuelta. He managed to finish 8th in the dopefest of 2005. He finished 4th in 2006. And 2nd in 2007. Seems like a gradual improvement, no?

And of course there was a magical hog program. Or at the very least remarkable tolerance of doping on the behalf of hog. How else does a Northern Classics rider/sprinter win the Tour queen stage and finish top 15 on GC?

Of course it's also possible that post Fuentes revelations Contador went solo. He most have become acquainted with Pepe around 2007?

 

[Mr.38%]

...ferrari's super juice...

There is nothing like that.

 

[the asian]

yr. I think Contador was on a solo program with Marti, while Bruyneel had his own program with the rest.
Marti was Bertie's personal trainer, and it's reported that bertie had his own people.
He joined Bruyneel in 2007, so he must have started with Marti then.