Will Contador Be Juiced Up Again Upon His Return

[Parrulo]

Your cynicism is now the norm in the Clinic. All the brayers who are the most prolific posters and loquacious self appointed experts are just like you. It is as though there is no one left in the World in any sport who has athletic talent anymore, but rather are just juiced up also rans.

And while there is plenty of reasons for cynicism especially in cycling, the constant negativity in the Clinic is making the Clinic redundant. Your ultra negative view contradicts the reality that some humans are skilled at athletics and most are not. Your view counters the human experience, logic and reason.

Alberto is one hell of a talented cyclist. His only known positive is the clen in 2010 which everyone who understands the issue in his case could not have given him a performance enhancement in the 2010 TDF. All the other suspicions about him are just sheer speculation - navel gazing.

This thread is about whether or not in 2012 he would come back to the peloton juiced, We are now 2.25 years beyond that and the navel gazing is as idiotic as ever. I will declare my bias. I believe AC is the best GT rider of his generation based on his talent and athletic skill. Just like Cancellera is a great one day rider. Just like Cavendish is a great sprinter and so on. Just like Derek Jeter is a great baseball player or Ronaldo and Messi are great footballers or Kevin Durant is a great basketball player. Why - talent and athletic skill. No dope.

Some of you brayers need to get a life!

So following your logic, up to 2012, LA was also clean to you. Right?

 

[Beech Mtn]

snipped

And just why should pro sports be held as holy and beyond reproach? It's not art, or timeless universal truth, or anything truly earth-changing. It's a business. An entertaining business, but still. There's nothing terribly immoral about not turning sportsmen into mythical heroes, believing in fairy tales, or worshiping sporting acts with religious fervor. One can still enjoy the show for what it is.

YMMV. {shrug}

 

[del1962]

Rodriguez was doping before too, he just wasn't on a leaders program

Do you have any evidence that Purito is or was doping?

 

[RobbieCanuck]

So following your logic, up to 2012, LA was also clean to you. Right?

Of course not. LA was never an athlete of the calibre of the ones I mentioned. Without drugs he was an also ran. In fact if I recall correctly his first marathon after cycling was in excess of 3 hours.

My logic (in case you missed it) is that it is cynical in the extreme to suggest as BeechMtn did that virtually all athletes at the top of their sport are doped. His logic assumes there are no talented or skilled athletes in the world and they are all at the top of their game due to drugs.

My logic does not assume LA was not doped. In fact AC may have also been doped to the gills. I just don't believe that. All of the suggestions to the contrary are speculation and ignore his talent. Just like Hitch believes Froome is doped. I respect his opinion but he still has not answered my query as to why he believes that.

That fact is, all of the "assumptions" made by the brayers in the Clinic about AC are made on speculation and uninformed opinion, the primary staple of the Clinic. Just because you have your a$$ out of joint because I called the Clinic redundant does not detract from my logic.

If the Clinic wants to be relevant then as an Administrator make it relevant and don't go barking at me. I am the wrong tree. Your comment is silly especially for an Administrator!

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Contador's juice bar:

Going for a multi flavored concoction in a big jug this year.

 

[The Hitch]

Do you have any evidence that Purito is or was doping?

No more than Walsh does.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

And just why should pro sports be held as holy and beyond reproach? It's not art, or timeless universal truth, or anything truly earth-changing. It's a business. An entertaining business, but still. There's nothing terribly immoral about not turning sportsmen into mythical heroes, believing in fairy tales, or worshiping sporting acts with religious fervor. One can still enjoy the show for what it is.

YMMV. {shrug}

In the span of 1hr and 26 minutes your brain has forgot the comment you made at #1811. Let me refresh your memory as to what you said about athletes and not pro sports,

"Hardly anybody is clean. Both in cycling and in all other pro sports. A few are clean or cleanish. But mostly not the guys at the pointy end of the races. It's the same across all sports and all nationalities

This was the issue I was taking issue about and not that there is not drugs in pro sports. Where did I ever say there was no drugs in pro sports or that they should get a pass? Your return comment is non-responsive to my comment and thus irrelevant to the issue I raised.

Of course there is doping in all pro-sports just not nearly to the degree and extent you are claiming broadly without evidence. You are also denigrating a mass of athletes at the top of their game due to their athletic talent and not drugs. The ones I mentioned for instance.

If you are going to make wild assertions stick to the issue I raised as opposed to braying about pro sports in general.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Contador's juice bar:

Going for a multi flavored concoction in a big jug this year.

I have been to this juice bar. It is in Redondo Beach, CA. AC hangs out there regularly because it is so close to home!

 

[HSNHSN]

My logic (in case you missed it) is that it is cynical in the extreme to suggest as BeechMtn did that virtually all athletes at the top of their sport are doped. His logic assumes there are no talented or skilled athletes in the world and they are all at the top of their game due to drugs.

The first sentence is one I can agree with, but the second one most certainly not. I doubt you will in fact find many people in here denying talent is important. It's just that there's an enormous difference between an undoped talent and an extremely doped talent. If one assumes all athletes at the top of their sport are doped, it doesn't mean one ignores skill and talent. There's just an interplay between these two going on at top levels.

A problem arising from this interplay is that it can be (ab-)used in either direction of an argument: several posters before have proclaimed that Contador is probably still a talented rider. Other posters have stated that it is important to say who exactly is talented and who's not, since we cannot know the extent of doping of top riders. (similar statements hold for other sports)

 

[Dazed and Confused]

I have been to this juice bar. It is in Redondo Beach, CA. AC hangs out there regularly because it is so close to home!

It reminds me of the Palo Alto based receptionist a couple of decades ago claiming I needed to try something very special from California: Pizza.

You haven't really been outside of Canada, have you Canuck?

 

[zigmeister]

So Contador goes into hiding/lay-low mode for a few years after he gets popped at the TDF.

Now, 2+ yrs later, he has this amazing/phenominal increase in his performance and results.

So he was either 1) depressed, not performing up to his expectations/talent during the past 2yrs where he was an "also-ran"...or 2) he is doped...because he literally has gone from nothing, nada, terrible results...to absolute amazing form and domination in no time whatsoever.

So what has changed to turn things around with Contador? A cleaner peloton the last 2yrs now that the natural order has returned back to what once was?

When you having recently discovered form and performance that is seemingly out of nowhere...one has to be suspicious.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

It reminds me of the Palo Alto based receptionist a couple of decades ago claiming I needed to try something very special from California: Pizza.

You haven't really been outside of Canada, have you Canuck?

Ah you caught me. Are you a cop? Actually I have travelled a lot, over twenty or so countries but not Redondo Beach as of yet. The more I think about your photo (shopped) is that juice bar not in Vancouver? Or am I just dazed and confused?

 

[Netserk]

I have been to this juice bar. It is in Redondo Beach, CA. AC hangs out there regularly because it is so close to home!

The url says it's from Singapore

 

[hrotha]

So Contador goes into hiding/lay-low mode for a few years after he gets popped at the TDF.

Now, 2+ yrs later, he has this amazing/phenominal increase in his performance and results.

So he was either 1) depressed, not performing up to his expectations/talent during the past 2yrs where he was an "also-ran"...or 2) he is doped...because he literally has gone from nothing, nada, terrible results...to absolute amazing form and domination in no time whatsoever.

So what has changed to turn things around with Contador? A cleaner peloton the last 2yrs now that the natural order has returned back to what once was?

When you having recently discovered form and performance that is seemingly out of nowhere...one has to be suspicious.

Maybe his "trainer" got into legal trouble and he had to find himself a new one?

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Ah you caught me. Are you a cop? Actually I have travelled a lot, over twenty or so countries but not Redondo Beach as of yet. The more I think about your photo (shopped) is that juice bar not in Vancouver? Or am I just dazed and confused?

Well you're not convincing me, but carry on.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

. If one assumes all athletes at the top of their sport are doped, it doesn't mean one ignores skill and talent. There's just an interplay between these two going on at top levels. QUOTE]

The above assumption is the problem with your logic. It denies that most top athletes are on top because of their athletic talent and not dope. Are you really suggesting that Kevin Durant or Lebron James or Usain Bolt or Sidney Crosby or Derek Jeter or Roger Federer or Adam Scott or Tom Brady or Lionel Messi need to dope?

The ones who aren't that great are generally found out - Mark McGuire, Yohan Blake, Tyler Hamilton, Kellen Winslow, Tyson Gay, Ryan Braun, Viktor Troicki, Johannes Duerr etc.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Well you're not convincing me, but carry on.

Sigh! I have never tested positive for orange juice in my career and I have been tested over 500 times. Does that convince you?

 

[RobbieCanuck]

The url says it's from Singapore

Very perceptive. Does AC have a house there?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

So Contador goes into hiding/lay-low mode for a few years after he gets popped at the TDF.

Now, 2+ yrs later, he has this amazing/phenominal increase in his performance and results.

So he was either 1) depressed, not performing up to his expectations/talent during the past 2yrs where he was an "also-ran"...or 2) he is doped...because he literally has gone from nothing, nada, terrible results...to absolute amazing form and domination in no time whatsoever.

So what has changed to turn things around with Contador? A cleaner peloton the last 2yrs now that the natural order has returned back to what once was?

When you having recently discovered form and performance that is seemingly out of nowhere...one has to be suspicious.

The following is a reenactment only.

Dear Alberto

I know we have had our problems, but hey, let's let sleeping dogs lie, water pass under the bridge and all that stuff, da?

Please find enclosed a little something something a close friend of mine has access to in mother country Russia. Get your guy to test it out, I am sure he will agree it is of finest quality and not detectable.

Your friend and team owner
Oleg

 

[Poursuivant]

I was following the race on this forum when everyone said AC was destroying the field. I don't know, maybe it is just me, but when I saw the highlights, there was nothing particularly exceptional about it that made me scream doped up performance, compared to usual.

 

[HSNHSN]

The above assumption is the problem with your logic. It denies that most top athletes are on top because of their athletic talent and not dope. Are you really suggesting that Kevin Durant or Lebron James or Usain Bolt or Sidney Crosby or Derek Jeter or Roger Federer or Adam Scott or Tom Brady or Lionel Messi need to dope?

The ones who aren't that great are generally found out - Mark McGuire, Yohan Blake, Tyler Hamilton, Kellen Winslow, Tyson Gay, Ryan Braun, Viktor Troicki, Johannes Duerr etc.

What do I have to do with this? I merely pointed out that the hidden assumption you claimed was there, just isn't necessary in the mentioned line of thinking. That is to say, you seem to have wrongly assumed a hidden assumption.

How my personal beliefs come into this, I don't know. Apart from that, I don't even know half the athletes you mention.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

So Contador goes into hiding/lay-low mode for a few years after he gets popped at the TDF.

Now, 2+ yrs later, he has this amazing/phenominal increase in his performance and results.

So he was either 1) depressed, not performing up to his expectations/talent during the past 2yrs where he was an "also-ran"...or 2) he is doped...because he literally has gone from nothing, nada, terrible results...to absolute amazing form and domination in no time whatsoever.

So what has changed to turn things around with Contador? A cleaner peloton the last 2yrs now that the natural order has returned back to what once was?

When you having recently discovered form and performance that is seemingly out of nowhere...one has to be suspicious.

I think you have misread AC. He has a voracious appetite to win and I think he is PO'd at his "lacklustre" performances in '12-'13. Here is his '12-'13 palmares.

2012 - 1st Milano–Torino1st Jersey red.svg Overall classification Vuelta a España 1st Stage 174th Overall classification Eneco Tour9th Giro di Lombardia9th World Time Trial Championships

2013 - 2nd Overall classification Tour of Oman3rd Overall classification Tirreno–Adriatico 1st Jersey red.svg points classification3rd Klasika Primavera4th Overall classification Tour de France4th Overall classification Tour de San Luis 1st Stage 65th Overall classification Tour of the Basque Country5th Milano–Torino10th Overall classification Critérium du Dauphiné

Not great but not too shabby

Don't discount the desire of an athlete to win.

PS before you post back about LA's "desire to win" note that even LA admitted it is not that he wanted to win, he just did not want to lose. There is a huge difference in attitude. AC wins with enthusiasm but with modesty.

 

[doperhopper]

So what has changed to turn things around with Contador? A cleaner peloton the last 2yrs now that the natural order has returned back to what once was?

When you having recently discovered form and performance that is seemingly out of nowhere...one has to be suspicious.

maybe SkyMasters paid only for 2 year's freeride license (so far, Vroomie 2014 goes in the footsteps of Wiggo 2013), or simply Oleg T. stopped playing a rebel, peacefully and humbly came, and paid more (remember last year - Albuterol Clentador riding Tour just for fun, no result but did not look disappointed, just killing time till their prepaid year comes)

 

[Beech Mtn]

maybe SkyMasters paid only for 2 year's freeride license (so far, Vroomie 2014 goes in the footsteps of Wiggo 2013), or simply Oleg T. stopped playing a rebel, peacefully and humbly came, and paid more (remember last year - Albuterol Clentador riding Tour just for fun, no result but did not look disappointed, just killing time till their prepaid year comes)

Or there's a new sheriff at the UCI, and everybody feels free to step it up now without Pat in charge?

 

[RobbieCanuck]

What do I have to do with this? I merely pointed out that the hidden assumption you claimed was there, just isn't necessary in the mentioned line of thinking. That is to say, you seem to have wrongly assumed a hidden assumption.

How my personal beliefs come into this, I don't know. Apart from that, I don't even know half the athletes you mention.

Did you not post in #1839 the following,

"If one assumes all athletes at the top of their sport are doped, it doesn't mean one ignores skill and talent. There's just an interplay between these two going on at top levels."

It is your assumption, not mine. And your assumption is neither reasonable or logical.

The clean athletes I named, who don't need drugs because of their natural athletic talent, are all athletes "at the top of their sport" to use your phrase and those sports include baseball, hockey, track, cycling, football, tennis, golf and soccer.

The other athletes (dopers) are well known in baseball, track, cycling, football, tennis and cross country skiing. They are not as well known as those in the first list because they did not have the athletic talent to compete without drugs so they are known for being infamous.

So if you are going to assume or allege "all athletes at the top of their sport are doped" you should do something to learn about "their" sport and their natural athletic skills.