Will Contador help Armstrong on Ventoux?

[Publicus]

You mean the way Hushovd put his green jersey ambitions aside to be a domestique for his leader, Sastre? Oh wait, he didn't do that.
Or how about the way Flecha put his stage win ambitions aside to be a domestique for his leader, Menchov. Oh, wait, he didn't do that.
How about the way Wiggins put his GC ambitions aside to help his leader, CVDV? Oh wait, ...
How about the way Mark Cavendish...

Does anyone except relatively unknown true domestiques, much less a 7 time Tour champion, ride the way you expect Armstrong to ride in your unrealistic fantasies?



You think Bjarne Riis screamed, or should have screamed, at Cancellara for wasting his energy? Oh wait, that's different. Yeah, well, a 7-time tour champion is different too.

Stop trying to apply the distinct and rarely used team model that was used by Postal/Disco on Astana (while forgetting to apply on it anyone else).

First of all, Thor's goals are different than Sastre's, so that's not a fair comparison. Secondly, he at least gave it a go on the Col de Romme.

But let's be real, Lance as a 7 Time Tour de France champion had a very low probability of ever winning this Tour. Very low. And once Contador put his stamp on this Tour at Verbier, that probability was ZERO. Since then, exactly how much time has he put in pacing Contador up the mountains? Zero. He's covered I believe two attacks by Frank Schleck, but otherwise, he's been out of the action. So much for the teamwork.

Now, back to your initial question: will Contador help Lance on Ventoux. Well I guess the question is how would you envision this help occurring? How exactly does a superior climber help a (relatively) weak one overcome/hold off a stronger climber (Frank Schleck)? I don't know how that is supposed to work. Lance doesn't have it and there is nothing Contador can do to help get it back. I expect Kloden and/or Wiggins to leap frog him on Saturday.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

It seems fitting to apply to Armstrong and Bruyneel the very standards they applied to other riders.

Since Riis has always used a model that gives lots of his rider the opportunity to win then there is no reason to apply the Bruyneel school of throught to Saxo.

If you could get over your man love for Armstrong, you might see the hypocrisy of Armstrong and Bruyneel.

"It seems fitting"? That's your argument? Stunning.

I have no love for the egomaniac from Texas or his Flemish friend.
Every team is organized differently, and how it's organized depends on many factors. Just because Bruyneel is in charge does not mean he uses the model he used on Postal/Disco. If I remember correctly he's used the two-leaders model before, at least in the Vuelta with Heras and Leipheimer.

They decide what the optimal model is for a given race with a given team, not us, and certainly not "it seems fitting" you.

 

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Kloden and Armstrong at the front during the climb IS protecting the yellow jersey

 

[Publicus]

It seems fitting to apply to Armstrong and Bruyneel the very standards they applied to other riders.

Since Riis has always used a model that gives lots of his rider the opportunity to win then there is no reason to apply the Bruyneel school of throught to Saxo.

If you could get over your man love for Armstrong, you might see the hypocrisy of Armstrong and Bruyneel.

No, no, no. This is too logical. You must compare Bruyneel to everyone else. It is completely unfair to compare him to his prior teams. As for Armstrong, to the extent the comparison is unfavorable to Armstrong, you cannot make it. To the extent it is favorable, by all means make it!

 

[joeags]

Three leader in the Giro last year when he had no idea who would react best of Contador, Kloden and Leipheimer after the last minute invite. Became clear who would be the leader quite a bit earlier than in this race...

If I remember correctly he's used the two-leaders model before, at least in the Vuelta with Heras and Leipheimer.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

who aside from predominately Lance supporting US readers gives a flying f*k what wilcockson says?

You're attributing a level of influence and/or knowledge that isn't there.

Wilcockson has some insight on what the rest of the peleton feels? Maybe some contacts in Lance-ville, maybe Vaughters and a parts of Columbia. The rest of the peleton, the spanish cycling fans, the other euro fans, most of the cycling world - why would they give a crap what a reporter from some 2nd rate US cycling mag has to say?

I just quoted the guy, and did not attribute any kind of level of influence or knowledge to him. Whatever you imagine I attributed to him is just that, your imagination. I'm just asking a question.

I will say this about Wilcockson. He knows how to spell peloton.

 

[BroDeal]

I expect Kloden and/or Wiggins to leap frog him on Saturday.

That will be a tough one for Armstrong to swallow: Beaten by WIggins after making fun of Sastre's win.

Actually I think Wiggins will get dropped by Armstrong on Ventoux.

 

[Publicus]

Three leader in the Giro last year when he had no idea who would react best of Contador, Kloden and Leipheimer after the last minute invite. Became clear who would be the leader quite a bit earlier than in this race...

It was clear who was the strongest from Stage 1 in this year's Tour. Not sure how much earlier you can get than that.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

.

Armstrong will put his podium dream ahead of everything. He has been working for himself throughout the Tour. He criticized AC for dropping Andreas K., but how many times did he drop his teammates when he won his yellow jerseys? It was never even a question when he attacked that maybe Landis, Hamilton, Levi or Heras would suffer on GC from it. I find it fascinating how passive aggressive he is toward AC. And the media doesn't even mention it....

He didn't criticize AC, he questioned that decision.

It was Levi who pointed out it was a dumb move.

 

[patrick767]

Some of you guys are not understanding the thread title. The thread title says "will contador help LA on Ventoux" NOT "Will Contador gift LA the stage win on Ventoux." Another example of the many on this forum not paying attention to what they are reading and saying.

They're too busy jumping at another chance to whine and cry about how Armstrong is the most horrible person on the planet. Pathetic. I expected better from forums at such a fantastic cycling website.

 

[Publicus]

That will be a tough one for Armstrong to swallow: Beaten by WIggins after making fun of Sastre's win.

Actually I think Wiggins will get dropped by Armstrong on Ventoux.

Maybe. Though, I think Armstrong and Wiggins both get dropped by Frank Schleck so it is a moot point.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Don't think AC really needs LAs help on Ventoux. That said, if for some reason he is losing the yellow, I would certainly imagine both LA and AK will help.
At this point though, I think spots 1&2 are pretty well locked up. The big question is three. I'd imagine that unless AC looks to be in trouble, Brunyeel will have given LA and AK free reign.

Whether AC would actually help is another question. Certainly another podium spot would help the team, employees and sponsor. But not sure that is enough to overcome the iffy feelings between LA and AC.

Thanks for making an intelligent comment.

 

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Shreks and Riis are gonna unleash holy hell on everyone on Ventoux.

 

[Publicus]

Shreks and Riis are gonna unleash holy hell on everyone on Ventoux.

Finally something we agree on. I expect absolute carnage. They believe they can crack Contador because of what happened in Paris Nice. I'm looking forward to them trying--will make for some exciting racing.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Ok did we watch the same race. Lance attacks Wiggins. Wiggins responds and closes. Lance attacks again later, drops Wiggins, puts 1 minute into Wiggins. The Schlecks were up the friggin road with AC.

Whoa. Another intelligent comment. Keep 'em coming, guys! Good stuff.

 

[fulcrum]

Yes, it is impossible that Contador will help Armstrong, at least directly. The yellow jersey is not there to help. Helpers occasionally blow a gasket. You don't risk blowing a gasket if that is the only way you can lose the Tour. You gain stature in the peloton and the media by winning the Tour, not by helping people while you're winning the Tour. Contador does not, nor should he, care whether his teammates are 2nd, 3rd, and 4th or 150th, 151st, and 152nd. He earned the right to have the team ride for him and subordinate their ambitions to his.

The peloton is more than the handful of pet cyclist orbiting around Lance and the money he brings. Alberto's stature in the peloton is just find. Some might say that in general he is more liked than Lance between french, italian, russian, spanish an other riders.

Regarding his stature in the media, something tells me it won't be very high in places like Versus and in the eyes of Ligget, Bob Roll and other cheerleaders, unless he let's Lance win. Other more objective journalist seem fine, and AC will look even better on their reports after this coming Sunday.

 

[Azdak6]

Good point. Why would helping Armstrong (who has done NOTHING for Contador outside the TTT) make up for the supposed slight to Kloden? I don't want to sound mean, 95, but really? Why didn't Armstrong pace Heras up a climb after he had yellow by a few minutes so Heras could win a stage? B/c he was the team leader. When he gained time, it was never at the expense of his team but a positive for the team (even though he gained time on his teammates, too).

I don't care what AC does, but I don't think your comparison is applicable. Armstrong was never in a position where there was a mountaintop finish on the next to last day in a Tour in which he had the win sewed up. In two instances I can think of that are somewhat related, he did wait a bit to try and let Heras catch up and take the stage to Plateau de Beille in 2002 and only took off again when Beloki was able to follow Heras. In 2004 he tried to help Landis win in Le Grand Bornard and then took it himself when Landis couldn't go after Kloden. In 2005, when he had the jersey secured, he allowed teammates to go off on their own to seek individual victories (Hincapie, Salvodelli).

Like I said, I do not feel that Contador is obligated to help Armstrong in any way. If he can and he wants to, he will definitely gain some PR points. If he wants to "stamp his authority" on the race even further and crown his victory by taking Ventoux, he has certainly earned that right.

I see a scenario where Contador, the Schlecks, Wiggins, Armstrong, Kloden and others (Sastre?) are together. Andy will try to help Frank attack Armstrong. If Armstrong can keep up, Contador will help. If he can't, Contador will stay with the lead group and eventually go for the win. If someone else breaks away, I think he goes as well--but he at least says "adios" first.

 

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I can almost see Kloden trying to drag a cracked Armstrong and Contador up the mountain.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Ninety, all these people getting on your case and you are absolutely right. Contador is going to help Lance up Mont Ventoux. He will help Lance for sure. Alberto will set the tempo for Armstrong for about the same amount of km-s Lance set the tempo for Alberto during all these tour stages. It is only fair to recognize the domestique that way. In fact, Alberto has already stated publicly that he has no problem helping Lance get into the podium.

http://www.as.com/ciclismo/articulo/ciclismo-orgullo-comparen-indurain/dasclm/20090724dasdaicic_8/Tes

Interviewer: Armstrong ha recuperado el tercer puesto (Armstrong got his 3rd spot back)
AC: Es una buena noticia para nosotros. Ojalá pueda echarle una mano para que mantenga esa posición, como me encantaría que Klöden entrara en el podio de París. A ver si acaban ambos entre los tres primeros.
That is good news for us. I hope I can lend him a hand so he can keep that spot, I'd be delighted if Kloden would get in the podium in Paris. Let's see if they both finish between the top three.


Oh Alberto, always saying the right things

According to my calculations, as a domestique Lance has accumulated zero km of tempo riding for Contador so far, so that is exactly the amount Lance will get from Contador at Ventoux. Wait and see, take a pen and paper and count the distance.

So, my question is supposedly really stupid, yet Contador said he would do exactly what I'm asking.

I saw Contador on Armstrong's wheel quite a bit, especially for a few stages after that one stage where the wind blew the peloton apart, and AC got on the wrong end. He spent some time on Lance's wheel after that. And even in the mountains the last few days during tempo riding AC was on LA's wheel a lot.

 

[ezratm]

Do you guys even follow this sport?

Can you name even one team from this year's Tour in which there is one leader and eight pure domestiques each of which have no ambitions expect to support their leader on GC?

Of course not. Why do you expect this of Astana?

The illogic is perplexing.

This is not the first day of the Tour where there is uncertinty of who will be the team leader this is the last couple of stages where the main objective is to protect there highest placed rider. every team has there cards to play at the start of the tour and as it plays out you find the leader of the team.
AC is the leader of Astana (he does hav ehte yellow jersey and is dominating every stage)
Andy is the leader of saxo
Wiggins is the leader of Garm
and these riders should now at the end of the tour get the full support of the team to protect and help them.
This is not a series of one day races it is a tour and the overall win is the objective.
Not Armstrong going for his own glory or anyone else at the cost of the teams overall objective

 

[Azdak6]

Shouldn't moderators delete this junk?

They could--but then we'd miss you.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Liquigas announced two leaders at the start of the race, Nibali and Kreuzinger. They were also hedging on what Pellizotti would be able to do. In theory, they had 3 leaders. Pellizotti is busy winning the King of the Mountains jersey, has he helped Nibali much? I don't remember seeing Kreuzinger turning himself inside out to help Nibali, when it was clear that he was the stronger of the two. Nibali is less than 2 minutes off the podium.

Maybe you guys should take some time out from Astana and your hatred or love of Armstrong and jump on the Liquigas screw-up. Obviously they should have had only one leader.

(edit - didn't really expect to be going along 95's train of thought...!!!)

In the end, logic and reason always prevail. Welcome to my side.

 

[jamfra67]

Apparently he realizes he screwed up with Klodi the other day, or at least realizes he needs to act like he believes he screwed up, and helping LA might help make up for that.

At this point the "I wanted to put time into Wiggins" excuse is not going to fly.

simple man Kloden blew up and You should realise he did no work when he realised that Kloden was in trouble. Are you saying he should not attack? Supposing he had gotten clear of the schleck's would you be singing the same song? With all the mental games that were being played in the media by Lance, Bruyneel and Levi Contador had no reason to trust team. As Delgado said two stallions can't stay in the same barn. Witness Bruyneel and Lance forming their own team. They wanted to use Contador to launch publicity for their grand designe and it backfired. There is no free ride. You want it you go for it and thats what Contador had done

 

[Publicus]

This is not the first day of the Tour where there is uncertinty of who will be the team leader this is the last couple of stages where the main objective is to protect there highest placed rider. every team has there cards to play at the start of the tour and as it plays out you find the leader of the team.
AC is the leader of Astana (he does hav ehte yellow jersey and is dominating every stage)
Andy is the leader of saxo
Wiggins is the leader of Garm
and these riders should now at the end of the tour get the full support of the team to protect and help them.
This is not a series of one day races it is a tour and the overall win is the objective.
Not Armstrong going for his own glory or anyone else at the cost of the teams overall objective

I'm pretty sure Ninety Five isn't going to give you a gold star for this post. It doesn't reinforce his/her opinion.

 

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There is no getting around that was a dumb move by the Lone Ranger. Even he could figure that out. Dogs by the road all blushed in embarrassment right after that move.