Will Contador help Armstrong on Ventoux?

[Ninety5rpm]

First of all, Thor's goals are different than Sastre's, so that's not a fair comparison. Secondly, he at least gave it a go on the Col de Romme.

But let's be real, Lance as a 7 Time Tour de France champion had a very low probability of ever winning this Tour. Very low. And once Contador put his stamp on this Tour at Verbier, that probability was ZERO. Since then, exactly how much time has he put in pacing Contador up the mountains? Zero. He's covered I believe two attacks by Frank Schleck, but otherwise, he's been out of the action. So much for the teamwork.

Now, back to your initial question: will Contador help Lance on Ventoux. Well I guess the question is how would you envision this help occurring? How exactly does a superior climber help a (relatively) weak one overcome/hold off a stronger climber (Frank Schleck)? I don't know how that is supposed to work. Lance doesn't have it and there is nothing Contador can do to help get it back. I expect Kloden and/or Wiggins to leap frog him on Saturday.

I think Contador can help by all riding together, allowing the inevitable hard acceleration attacks from Wiggins and Schleck to initially go, and then pulling Lance (and Klodi) up to them at Lance/Klodi's pace. If they do this a few times, the attackers may soften enough for Klodi and/or Lance to take a successful shot at them.

If Contador attacks solo, that can only accomplish increasing his already substantial lead, or he'll take others with him (like he dropped Klodi before). It's better for the team and sponsors for him to use his energy to help the team keep two, if not get three, on the podium.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

I don't care what AC does, but I don't think your comparison is applicable. Armstrong was never in a position where there was a mountaintop finish on the next to last day in a Tour in which he had the win sewed up. In two instances I can think of that are somewhat related, he did wait a bit to try and let Heras catch up and take the stage to Plateau de Beille in 2002 and only took off again when Beloki was able to follow Heras. In 2004 he tried to help Landis win in Le Grand Bornard and then took it himself when Landis couldn't go after Kloden. In 2005, when he had the jersey secured, he allowed teammates to go off on their own to seek individual victories (Hincapie, Salvodelli).

Like I said, I do not feel that Contador is obligated to help Armstrong in any way. If he can and he wants to, he will definitely gain some PR points. If he wants to "stamp his authority" on the race even further and crown his victory by taking Ventoux, he has certainly earned that right.

I see a scenario where Contador, the Schlecks, Wiggins, Armstrong, Kloden and others (Sastre?) are together. Andy will try to help Frank attack Armstrong. If Armstrong can keep up, Contador will help. If he can't, Contador will stay with the lead group and eventually go for the win. If someone else breaks away, I think he goes as well--but he at least says "adios" first.

Exactly. ANOTHER intelligent comment!!

 

[Psalmon]

Contador has plenty of time and far outclasses the field physically, so he can sit on moves - that's his job, follow all the moves, keep the MJ, go for the win if it's there.

It will be interesting tomorrow to see if Astana rests Zubelida or Popo or Paulhino, like put the Kazakh and Rast out there for the whole day with some of the Columbia guys (who want revenge on Thor and the Cat 2 is not so bad a la MSR). That way those guys can storm up the lower Ventoux Saturday more fresh and shorten the drama somewhat.

The next piece is that Kloden and Popo (Paulhino and Zubeldia for Contador) will be the ones working for Lance to protect him and cover attacks by Wiggo. Help matters up there because of the wind, so if they can isolate 2 on Wiggo, it's over.

Why? At this point you should protect the podium spot for sponsors, any team would, not about Lance, blah blah. But most importantly, Kloden and Popo all want a long term deal with The Shack

Oh, and since it is a final mountain top finish, AC should attack and can clearly communicate with Zubeldia and Paulhino and say "Ok I'm going to attack and drop you and everyone else like you were anchored to the Tom Simpson Memorial. Please don't be offended my valued teammates, while I show Greg LeMond what a 2000 VPM looks like." Zoom!

 

[Publicus]

I think Contador can help by all riding together, allowing the inevitable hard acceleration attacks from Wiggins and Schleck to initially go, and then pulling Lance (and Klodi) up to them at Lance/Klodi's pace. If they do this a few times, the attackers may soften enough for Klodi and/or Lance to take a successful shot at them.

If Contador attacks solo, that can only accomplish increasing his already substantial lead, or he'll take others with him (like he dropped Klodi before). It's better for the team and sponsors for him to use his energy to help the team keep two, if not get three, on the podium.

Wait . . . you are suggesting that Contador not respond directly to an attack by Schleck (either one) in the hopes that if he responds slow enough he'll be able to bridge Lance over? I say Lance because Kloden has been able to respond on his own. This is just plain nonsensical. Either Lance has it or he doesn't. So far he hasn't. If he has on Saturday and can ride with Contador et al, bully on him. But Contador can't jeopardize his position to nurse Lance back to attacks. Lance's position is secondary to Contador's and the MJ.

The sponsors have gotten a ton of coverage with the drama swirling around this team. Having 3 on the podium will not be meaningful, especially when one of the podium spots has just announced that he's formed his own team and taking the DS with him.

 

[jamfra67]

They're too busy jumping at another chance to whine and cry about how Armstrong is the most horrible person on the planet. Pathetic. I expected better from forums at such a fantastic cycling website.

no contador will not help him,becuase he will be busy stamping his authority on the race. Look for popovich and others to do so. By the way everybody will be in survival mode on ventoux. Third place podium finish is between Lance,Kloden ,Frank and Wiggins. Are We saying that the seven time tour winner with his reputation cannot handle those guys on the ventoux? Here is a suggestion how about Contador help Kloden and Popovich help Lance on the ventoux. Fair enough right? It's not a race for the faint hearted as the strongest will survive. They both have wiggins and frank scheck to worry about. Contador has a stage to win. The guy is young let him build his resume and reputation as Lance has his already.

 

[krebs303]

From the Astana website

" On Stage 18 Alberto Contador put his penultimate stamp of authority on the Tour de France by having won Annecy's time trial, which grants a supplementary advantage in the overall before the last great appointment of the race on Saturday in the climb to Mont Ventoux, where, nevertheless, he has announced that he will limit himself to defending his yellow jersey. "At Mont Ventoux the others must attack. I will try to help Armstrong to keep his position on the podium and if Klöden also obtains it, much better."

 

[Publicus]

From the Astana website

" On Stage 18 Alberto Contador put his penultimate stamp of authority on the Tour de France by having won Annecy's time trial, which grants a supplementary advantage in the overall before the last great appointment of the race on Saturday in the climb to Mont Ventoux, where, nevertheless, he has announced that he will limit himself to defending his yellow jersey. "At Mont Ventoux the others must attack. I will try to help Armstrong to keep his position on the podium and if Klöden also obtains it, much better."

A truly magnanimous statement by a great champion. The question of course is whether Lance is up to the challenge. All indications are that he doesn't, but stranger things have in fact happened.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

This is not the first day of the Tour where there is uncertinty of who will be the team leader this is the last couple of stages where the main objective is to protect there highest placed rider. every team has there cards to play at the start of the tour and as it plays out you find the leader of the team.
AC is the leader of Astana (he does hav ehte yellow jersey and is dominating every stage)
Andy is the leader of saxo
Wiggins is the leader of Garm
and these riders should now at the end of the tour get the full support of the team to protect and help them.
This is not a series of one day races it is a tour and the overall win is the objective.
Not Armstrong going for his own glory or anyone else at the cost of the teams overall objective

And, so, I suppose you also think it would be inappropriate for Franck to try to get back on the podium, that instead he should just give his full support to Andy. And that Andy should not try to help Franck get ahead of Lance for the same reason you believe AC should not try to help LA stay in 3rd and keep ahead of Wiggins and Franck.

I should get some kind of award for asking a simple question that has produced the greatest number of illogical statements.

 

[psychlist]

I think we're all just baffled that the question you're asking isn't:

"Will Armstrong finally help Contador on Ventoux?"

This is a ridiculous post since the CN Forum Mafia has made it so clear that AC doesn't need any help and hasn't received any.
You people have no special knowledge of the inner workings of these teams nor what different racers are thinking. It's all speculation on both sides.

 

[pedaling squares]

I think Contador can help by all riding together, allowing the inevitable hard acceleration attacks from Wiggins and Schleck to initially go, and then pulling Lance (and Klodi) up to them at Lance/Klodi's pace. If they do this a few times, the attackers may soften enough for Klodi and/or Lance to take a successful shot at them.

If Contador attacks solo, that can only accomplish increasing his already substantial lead, or he'll take others with him (like he dropped Klodi before). It's better for the team and sponsors for him to use his energy to help the team keep two, if not get three, on the podium.

Your opinion is logical, but Astana is anything but a logical situation. Will Contador let the Schlecks ride away together so that he can pull Lance along? Given the loyalty that the Astanans have shown him thus far... no way. If Contador has a mechanical with Andy up the road, LA ain't gonna let him ride the Livestrong bike, and JB might just run him over with the team car. AC knows from 2.5 weeks' experience that the only person he can rely upon, apart from his mechanic, is himself. And I predict that he will save his energy for his needs and leave LA to ride at his own pace all the way to his new team.

 

[Publicus]

And, so, I suppose you also think it would be inappropriate for Franck to try to get back on the podium, that instead he should just give his full support to Andy. And that Andy should not try to help Franck get ahead of Lance for the same reason you believe AC should not try to help LA stay in 3rd and keep ahead of Wiggins and Franck.

I should get some kind of award for asking a simple question that has produced the greatest number of illogical statements.

I think the difference is that Andy and Frank are at least relatively close in climbing ability, such that they can (as they did on the Queen Stage) work together to put time into their rivals. So far, I haven't seen any evidence that Lance can climb with the Schleck Brothers or Contador. Thus either Contador has to *** his own abilities to bring Lance along or Lance has to uncork some untapped reserves for Contador to be able to help him.

 

[frizzlefry]

no contador will not help him,becuase he will be busy stamping his authority on the race. Look for popovich and others to do so. By the way everybody will be in survival mode on ventoux. Third place podium finish is between Lance,Kloden ,Frank and Wiggins. Are We saying that the seven time tour winner with his reputation cannot handle those guys on the ventoux? Here is a suggestion how about Contador help Kloden and Popovich help Lance on the ventoux. Fair enough right? It's not a race for the faint hearted as the strongest will survive. They both have wiggins and frank scheck to worry about. Contador has a stage to win. The guy is young let him build his resume and reputation as Lance has his already.

I think the podium ends like this.
1) AC 2) AS 3)AK.

 

[Publicus]

Your opinion is logical, but Astana is anything but a logical situation. Will Contador let the Schlecks ride away together so that he can pull Lance along? Given the loyalty that the Astanans have shown him thus far... no way. If Contador has a mechanical with Andy up the road, LA ain't gonna let him ride the Livestrong bike, and JB might just run him over with the team car. AC knows from 2.5 weeks' experience that the only person he can rely upon, apart from his mechanic, is himself. And I predict that he will save his energy for his needs and leave LA to ride at his own pace all the way to his new team.

Your are DEFINITELY not getting a Ninetyfive Gold Star for this post!

 

[Psalmon]

From the Astana website

"At Mont Ventoux the others must attack. I will try to help Armstrong to keep his position on the podium and if Klöden also obtains it, much better."

Oh come on! EVERYBODY knows that's coming out of the Armstrong PR machine. If Contador said it, it was only while Lance's security goons were holding Alberto upside down with his head in the toilet at the back of the Astana team bus while Johan threatened to flush the Mellow Johnny down with him in it. Those evil b@stards.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

There is no getting around that was a dumb move by the Lone Ranger. Even he could figure that out. Dogs by the road all blushed in embarrassment right after that move.

ROTFLOL!

"Dogs on the road all blushed in embarrassment right after that move."

Exactement! And yet the geniuses on this forum are still defending the blunder that, like you said, even Contadork figured out was putting him into T-Mobile chasing-down-their-own-guy-knucklehead-territory.

 

[jamfra67]

I think Contador can help by all riding together, allowing the inevitable hard acceleration attacks from Wiggins and Schleck to initially go, and then pulling Lance (and Klodi) up to them at Lance/Klodi's pace. If they do this a few times, the attackers may soften enough for Klodi and/or Lance to take a successful shot at them.

If Contador attacks solo, that can only accomplish increasing his already substantial lead, or he'll take others with him (like he dropped Klodi before). It's better for the team and sponsors for him to use his energy to help the team keep two, if not get three, on the podium.

It's better for the team and sponsor's? which sponsor Astana or radio shack? Bruyneel and Lance had their plans all along. Why did they not wait after the tour to make their announcement? Those two have just shafted Astana and you talking about good for sponsors. Witness Contador has kept his plans to himself while still with Astana. Bruyneel and Lance out there with their publicity stunt why not wait at the end of the tour?

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Contador has plenty of time and far outclasses the field physically, so he can sit on moves - that's his job, follow all the moves, keep the MJ, go for the win if it's there.

It will be interesting tomorrow to see if Astana rests Zubelida or Popo or Paulhino, like put the Kazakh and Rast out there for the whole day with some of the Columbia guys (who want revenge on Thor and the Cat 2 is not so bad a la MSR). That way those guys can storm up the lower Ventoux Saturday more fresh and shorten the drama somewhat.

The next piece is that Kloden and Popo (Paulhino and Zubeldia for Contador) will be the ones working for Lance to protect him and cover attacks by Wiggo. Help matters up there because of the wind, so if they can isolate 2 on Wiggo, it's over.

Why? At this point you should protect the podium spot for sponsors, any team would, not about Lance, blah blah. But most importantly, Kloden and Popo all want a long term deal with The Shack

Oh, and since it is a final mountain top finish, AC should attack and can clearly communicate with Zubeldia and Paulhino and say "Ok I'm going to attack and drop you and everyone else like you were anchored to the Tom Simpson Memorial. Please don't be offended my valued teammates, while I show Greg LeMond what a 2000 VPM looks like." Zoom!

Holy cow, someone else with an IQ north of 130. Welcome, my friend, welcome.

Your comments anticipating Columbia's role tomorrow, and why, and how Astana can use that to rest some of their guys for Ventoux, is particularly astute.

Psalmon. Must remember that one.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Wait . . . you are suggesting that Contador not respond directly to an attack by Schleck (either one) in the hopes that if he responds slow enough he'll be able to bridge Lance over? I say Lance because Kloden has been able to respond on his own. This is just plain nonsensical. Either Lance has it or he doesn't. So far he hasn't. If he has on Saturday and can ride with Contador et al, bully on him. But Contador can't jeopardize his position to nurse Lance back to attacks. Lance's position is secondary to Contador's and the MJ.

The sponsors have gotten a ton of coverage with the drama swirling around this team. Having 3 on the podium will not be meaningful, especially when one of the podium spots has just announced that he's formed his own team and taking the DS with him.

I'm talking 5-10 seconds. It's not like Andy can take a 10 second lead on Contador and turn into 4 minutes...

Lance might have it, but if Contador has the extra energy to spare, why not use it to help Lance and Klodi conserve their energy so they can keep and knock Andy, Franck and Wiggs off the podium?

Yeah, Klodi followed the attacks on his own, but then he blew up. That plan is not going to get him on the podium.

What I'm talking about is transferring some of Contador's surplus energy to Lance and Klodi to keep one, or maybe get both of them, on the podium.

 

[Publicus]

I'm talking 5-10 seconds. It's not like Andy can take a 10 second lead on Contador and turn into 4 minutes...

Lance might have it, but if Contador has the extra energy to spare, why not use it to help Lance and Klodi conserve their energy so they can keep and knock Andy, Franck and Wiggs off the podium?

Yeah, Klodi followed the attacks on his own, but then he blew up. That plan is not going to get him on the podium.

What I'm talking about is transferring some of Contador's surplus energy to Lance and Klodi to keep one, or maybe get both of them, on the podium.

For the sake of argument, please explain why Contador would do such a thing (see bolded portion and only with respect to Lance (Kloden is a different case))? Why transfer energy to a teammate who doesn't respect him, hasn't worked for him, and has treated him like a competitor rather than a teammate throughout (save the TTT)? In short, what has Lance done to date to earn Contador putting in work for Lance's podium aspirations?

 

[Ninety5rpm]

A truly magnanimous statement by a great champion. The question of course is whether Lance is up to the challenge. All indications are that he doesn't, but stranger things have in fact happened.

Well, now you're singing a completely different tune.

You're right, Lance's performance today was not promising. Prior to the TT he seemed very confident about Ventoux. Andreu asked him how much time he felt he needed over the Shreks to stay ahead of them on Ventoux, and he said one second, that he would be able to hold them back. I'm not so sure he's that confident after his dismal ride today. It will be interesting to watch either way, that's for sure.

What some of you guys don't get is that it will be just as interesting and exciting for me to see Lance bonk and lose 20 minutes as it would be to see him attack from the bottom and get 5 minutes on AC by the finish.

As long as they don't all finish together in one boring groupetto. But I do think the odds of that are very low.

 

[patriot]

will cantador help Armstrong on Ventoux

ROTFLOL!

"Dogs on the road all blushed in embarrassment right after that move."

Exactement! And yet the geniuses on this forum are still defending the blunder that, like you said, even Contadork figured out was putting him into T-Mobile chasing-down-their-own-guy-knucklehead-territory.

Why cant you guys get over it?

We had a funeral for two weeks and now there was racing and you are complaining about dumb move.

kloden Blew up, Contador attack did not last 30 seconds, when the brothers closed he sat on and the pace continued at the same pace they were doing previously. Koden could not close because he blew up plain and simple.

what you guys gave Cantador a a guage to see when Kloden will blow up?

what if Kloden held on and counter attacked and won the stage what would you say?
Do you hear Kloden Complaining?

I was a dissapointed when Kloden got dropped but I have gotten over it.
I really feel for Kloden who has done much more work than Lance and is only 14 seconds or so behind him. this is a guy who has made the podium while at the service of others.

We would have a much more competitive race if Kloden, Lance, Levi, and Contador were on different teams. Real attacks and agressive riding instead of the boring 1st two weeks.

Let the strongest win and no gifts

 

[Publicus]

Well, now you're singing a completely different tune.

You're right, Lance's performance today was not promising. Prior to the TT he seemed very confident about Ventoux. Andreu asked him how much time he felt he needed over the Shreks to stay ahead of them on Ventoux, and he said one second, that he would be able to hold them back. I'm not so sure he's that confident after his dismal ride today. It will be interesting to watch either way, that's for sure.

What some of you guys don't get is that it will be just as interesting and exciting for me to see Lance bonk and lose 20 minutes as it would be to see him attack from the bottom and get 5 minutes on AC by the finish.

As long as they don't all finish together in one boring groupetto. But I do think the odds of that are very low.

Same tune. Don't have much confidence that a 38 year old has what it takes to hold onto the podium.

 

[scribe]

The dumbest part of the move was isolating himself.......

 

[richwagmn]

Given the way AC has ridden (take no prisoners) this year, I don't know what to expect. He doesn't need to attack, but that doesn't seem to matter.

No way should he be expected to work for LA. What he owes LA is a swift kick in the balls.

Wilcockson is in the bag for LA. He's been predicting AC's failure all tour. He's obviously not happy that AC won. Probably sad he won't sell as many copies of his book either.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Your opinion is logical, but Astana is anything but a logical situation. Will Contador let the Schlecks ride away together so that he can pull Lance along? Given the loyalty that the Astanans have shown him thus far... no way. If Contador has a mechanical with Andy up the road, LA ain't gonna let him ride the Livestrong bike, and JB might just run him over with the team car. AC knows from 2.5 weeks' experience that the only person he can rely upon, apart from his mechanic, is himself. And I predict that he will save his energy for his needs and leave LA to ride at his own pace all the way to his new team.

This kind of dark cynicism is bordering on pathetic, and obscures clear thinking, apparently.

You don't think Lance is smart enough to realize on the fly the accolades he would get for giving up his bike for the mellow johnny? Heck, he'd jump on that opportunity to have such a classy excuse for not getting on the podium... "I had to give my bike and time for the good of the team, that's what teamwork is all about. Livestrong RadioShack!".