Windy Mountain

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I'm sure he means well.

I don't know why he wants to believe so much.

His choice and his opinion. My 20+ years in cycling say Sky are doping their collective heads off.

Watch Valverde at the Vuelta. He'll go medio genius and get lambasted for it.

Life.

I dont give a rats ar@e if SKY are doping in this case but if people are mislead that should be adressed. Race clearly is stating 80% of the climb to Ventoux was a tailwind, that is a blatant lie. Why is The Race Radio lying here? What agenda does fit there? Is it the tailwind that made Froome climb as fast as the Race Radio Enemy [Armstrong] who actually did have a tailwind in 2002? What agenda is being pushed here?

 

[thehog]

I dont give a rats ar@e if SKY are doping in this case but if people are mislead that should be adressed. Race clearly is stating 80% of the climb to Ventoux was a tailwind, that is a blatant lie. Why is The Race Radio lying here? What agenda does fit there? Is it the tailwind that made Froome climb as fast as the Race Radio Enemy [Armstrong] who actually did have a tailwind in 2002? What agenda is being pushed here?

Like I've said before.

Vaughters/Cookson sell up of cycling is coming to a pay TV service near you.

I have no evidence but looks like a few want to hitch their carts to the Super Duper Cycling America-Fock-Yeah names on the backs of jerseys Series.

Just my opinion. You never know. These guys might genuinely believe there was a tailwind.

But I doubt it.

What's so important about a tailwind? Who's trying to impress who?

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Like I've said before.

Vaughters/Cookson sell up of cycling is coming to a pay TV service near you.

I have no evidence but looks like a few want to hitch their carts to the Super Duper Cycling America-Fock-Yeah names on the backs of jerseys Series.

Just my opinion. You never know. These guys might genuinely believe there was a tailwind.

But I doubt it.

What's so important about a tailwind? Who's trying to impress who?

Please tell me there will be a 'World Police" scene with defecating muppets....please.....

 

[thehog]

Please tell me there will be a 'World Police" scene with defecating muppets....please.....

The vomit scene on Ventoux will be awesome!

 

[Race Radio]

Oh no, I guess we have to add Ross Tucker, from the great site The Sports Scientist to the list

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23368970

"The performance is fast again, so there is a reason to ask the question but the evidence seems to suggest that they had a tailwind on the day, and that may have helped him up the climb faster than in previous years," he says.

Hard to keep track of all the people on the being paid off by Sky. Walsh, Frankie, LeMond, Tucker, Grappe. I need to figure out how to get on that gravy train.

 

[thehog]

Oh no, I guess we have to add Ross Tucker, from the great site The Sports Scientist to the list

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23368970



Hard to keep track of all the people on the being paid off by Sky. Walsh, Frankie, LeMond, Tucker, Grappe. I need to figure out how to get on that gravy train.

Yeah! Sky are clean!

Calm down Race. Don't be so excited.

Are you trying to be subjective or put people down?

Slow down son. Fingers off the trigger

 

[sittingbison]

THIS thread IS about wind direction on Venteux, so gentle(wo)men please keep it to this topic and not veer off to Sky doping, Dawg unleashed, turncoat Walsh, little Richie's lunch habits, World Wide Cycling etc....or ridiculing other posters

Cheers
bison

 

[armchairclimber]

Ventoux has only been climbed twice at the Tour since 2002.

That will account for that misnomer you present.

After 2002 there was a seven year absence.

Misnomer????

 

[thehog]

Misnomer????

Misanoma on Venteux.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Oh no, I guess we have to add Ross Tucker, from the great site The Sports Scientist to the list

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23368970



Hard to keep track of all the people on the being paid off by Sky. Walsh, Frankie, LeMond, Tucker, Grappe. I need to figure out how to get on that gravy train.

You're being silly. The facts, as measured by the instruments at weather stations surrounding Ventoux (Bedoin, Sault, Malaucene) put the wind at anywhere between North and North-West.

To have the winds one or two kilometers away blowing in the exact opposite direction is somewhere between absurd to impossible.

Beliefs need to conform to reality. No matter what I, you, or anyone else want to believe, the winds were blowing from the north. This puts the *average* prevailing wind at a crosswind on the lower slopes and a headwind on the upper slopes.

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

You're being silly. The facts, as measured by the instruments at weather stations surrounding Ventoux (Bedoin, Sault, Malaucene) put the wind at anywhere between North and North-West.

To have the winds one or two kilometers away blowing in the exact opposite direction is somewhere between absurd to impossible.

Beliefs need to conform to reality. No matter what I, you, or anyone else want to believe, the winds were blowing from the north. This puts the *average* prevailing wind at a crosswind on the lower slopes and a headwind on the upper slopes.

John Swanson

Indeed the headwind on the upper slopes is confirmed by independent testimonies, including one rider,s testimony. Some spoke of "strong headwinds", for that matter. And, for what its worth, it had been predicted that there would be headwinds, at least above the treeline.
so headwind in the final segments can hardly be denied.

 

[thehog]

Indeed the headwind on the upper slopes is confirmed by independent testimonies, including one rider,s testimony. And it was predicted that there would be headwinds, at least above the treeline.
so headwind in the final segments can hardly be denied.

Race said it was a tailwind.

I believe him. He has inside information on wind patterns.

 

[Galic Ho]

Oh no, I guess we have to add Ross Tucker, from the great site The Sports Scientist to the list

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23368970



Hard to keep track of all the people on the being paid off by Sky. Walsh, Frankie, LeMond, Tucker, Grappe. I need to figure out how to get on that gravy train.

Is he the one who works with Saffa Rugby players? You know, the guys roided to the nth degree. Or was that his pal?

Bad guys to mention. It's like relying on Coggan for an idea on who is doping. Nobody is ever doping with them. The Science of Sport guys, despite being Saffa's here (so worst ones to pick for objectivity on the subject) are well known for saying sweet F-all about Contador's Verbier performance in 2009. They did a fairly good job presenting that it was normal.

You're not helping your point with this info. You're digging a bigger hole. Free tip for the day done.

Put it this way. Contador on Verbier 2009. How would he have gone on Ventoux that day? Roughly the same distance into the race. Nobody around here is going to say Contador was clean that year. Especially given we all know he beat Armstrong that day and cemented his leadership at Astana for the win in Paris. Froome beat the same guy and made him look like a chump. Wind doesn't matter, regardless of how much there was and which direction it was blowing. It was WHO he beat. You keep playing this card, then yes, a large portion of the Clinic will eventually assume you're in bed with Froome/Sky.

That's your card to play though. I couldn't care less. Picking and choosing what you want because it fits leaves little options for those paying attention to assume one has an AGENDA. Like I said, I don't care. This is all pointless IMO. Froome and a lot of others were doping. Froome more than the rest, maybe not Richie Rich. But that is it.

I can actually fix this for future references. Signal flares. Set them off on the mountain so the Clinic knows for sure. This stuff is ridiculous. It looks like a duck, quacks and waddles like a duck, it's a DUCK. Not a goose, but a duck.

 

[thehog]

RR, are you suggesting that what tailwind there was on the lower slopes affected the times in such a way that they can't be compared to other ascents?

If not, there isn't much point. If so, I don't see it. The video which I watched in it's entirety last night shows little or no tree movement in the early slopes. It can't have affected times in any meaningful way.

I watched carefully. The wind was coming from the WSW, almost directly a headwind on the last pitch before the 180 at the finish line. Mostly a cross to headwind on the exposed portions, with some turns in the road showing it as a cross/tail wind. That Phil Liggett felt the "wind is changing direction" was really funny to hear as if the road was running straight up the hill. Though he did note the change in effect as the road (not the wind direction) moved.

Dan Martin in his blog said sidewind and headwind. Does not mention tailwind at all.

Not sure where tailwind is coming from. I applaud those who think its a tailwind but there is no basis for the claim. It's not based on any fact that I can see.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Hard to keep track of all the people on the being paid off by Sky. Walsh, Frankie, LeMond, Tucker, Grappe. I need to figure out how to get on that gravy train.

Or, hard to keep track of your interpretations?

Show me the wind Race, for 80% of the Ventoux climb.
I'll help you a bit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oOC4ahW9rP0#t=28

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oOC4ahW9rP0#t=54

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oOC4ahW9rP0#t=99

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oOC4ahW9rP0#t=185

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oOC4ahW9rP0#t=224

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oOC4ahW9rP0#t=233

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oOC4ahW9rP0#t=278
[yep, there the 'howling' tailwind presents itsself for the first time]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oOC4ahW9rP0#t=357
[Andy having trouble to stay on the bike due to the howling tailwind there]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oOC4ahW9rP0#t=376

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oOC4ahW9rP0#t=386

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oOC4ahW9rP0#t=418

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oOC4ahW9rP0#t=442

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oOC4ahW9rP0#t=493

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oOC4ahW9rP0#t=512

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oOC4ahW9rP0#t=544

I could go on but I dont think there needs to be made more points.

Please dont include Walsh, Frankie, LeMond, Tucker, Grappe, I didnt see them in here claiming a tailwind for 80% of the Ventoux climb. I'll show you were there was a tailwind:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oOC4ahW9rP0#t=1802

Notice the little fact that was after 30 minutes in the climb, in this footage. From Bedoin on there were crosswinds and on one small stretch a cross/tailwind.

In the Walsh topic you also mentioned the Bonascre climb which was influenced due to windconditions, this is also incorrect:
http://vimeo.com/69799646
Where o where is that wind? Even the 1k banner doesnt move one bit.

So, why was only the Semnoz climb representative/questionable? Does it have anything to do with the presence of two other riders?

 

[poupou]

Weather forecast

From http://www.laprovence.com/actu/region-en-direct/2447218/tour-et-ventoux-les-acces-et-la-meteo.html

Voici le point de la situation à 9h00 livré par la préfecture de Vaucluse.
Trafic routier : au Sud Fermeture de la route entre BEDOIN er Sainte Colombe.
Météo : soleil et forte chaleur sur la route du Tour. En fin d'après-midi, des orages peuvent éclater sur le flanc Est du massif. Le vent (de nord) est modéré
Les températures maximales prévues : 34 à Bédoin, 24 au Chalet Reynard et 20 sous la banderole d'arrivée au sommet du Ventoux.
Lors de cette 15ème étape du Tour de France 2013 (étape Givors- Mont Ventoux), ce dimanche 14 juillet 2013, la course (caravane publicitaire) entrera dans le département de Vaucluse dès 14h24 ; l'arrivée des coureurs aura lieu au sommet du Mont-Ventoux entre 17h00 et 17h45. L'itinéraire de course en Vaucluse emprunte les RD 938, RD 19 et RD 974 avec traversée des agglomérations de : Vaison la Romaine, Malaucène et Bédoin.

Of course that is not the wind on top of moutain.

 

[thehog]

Probably that is tailwind through the forest, but trees limit drastically its effect, and that is more usefull for the riders ending the pack.
I have not checked it but I have read somewhere that Froome had been one of the fastest for the last km. So even if the wind were a bit helpfull, that brings a lot of questions about his cleanless.
Maybe we should, as we have done for the famous fastest ITT of Lemond, compare the last km of many riders. If all are "faster" than usual that could mean that they had all benefited from tailwind.

Froome's last 5km he was faster than Armstrong and almost as fast as Pantani.

Dan Martin said a headwind in the last 4km. Which makes Froome's time just amazing. Coupled with his accelerations only one conclusion can be drawn.

 

[Jeremiah]

Froome's last 5km he was faster than Armstrong and almost as fast as Pantani.

Dan Martin said a headwind in the last 4km. Which makes Froome's time just amazing. Coupled with his accelerations only one conclusion can be drawn.

Marginal gains?

 

[the sceptic]

Marginal gains?

Clean riders can now go faster than dopers from 10 years ago. At least Kerrison says so. I wonder if Race Radio believes this too.

 

[Race Radio]

Clean riders can now go faster than dopers from 10 years ago. At least Kerrison says so. I wonder if Race Radio believes this too.

You should read my posts and not some trolls intentional misrepresentation of my posts.

I wrote, very clearly, that Semnoz and Alp d'Huez were better examples of questionable performances. Riders said there was a tailwind, the video shows a tailwind. Many of the experts, like Ross Tucker, who calculate W/kg and VAM for most stages agree there was a tailwind. Pointing this fact out is not a declaration of support for Froome, just that there are better climbs to use as a measurement.

I doubt a clean rider will ever match Pantani on Alp d'Huez, Hautacam, etc. What is the limit? Don't know, 6.2 w/kg for 30 min or over is certainly questionable. 6.4 w/kg should set off alarms...6.7, Pas Normal. That is Riis, Pantani area.

Here is an interesting link to some of the best outputs of all time, and some from this year.

http://tour-manager.freehostia.com/start.php

 

[thehog]

I dont give a rats ar@e if SKY are doping in this case but if people are mislead that should be adressed. Race clearly is stating 80% of the climb to Ventoux was a tailwind, that is a blatant lie. Why is The Race Radio lying here? What agenda does fit there? Is it the tailwind that made Froome climb as fast as the Race Radio Enemy [Armstrong] who actually did have a tailwind in 2002? What agenda is being pushed here?

I'm not sure what the agenda is. I don't know why it's so important to have a tailwind. Something is at play though.

Maybe it was a slight of hand to justify Foome's time. Or it was a throw-a-way comment not based on actual fact but to rationalise it in his own head.

The Mayo comparison, the 12%, the wind. It's all a little odd.

Nevertheless I think we all know what we saw. And the videos you've posted I clearly see with my own eyes there wasn't a tailwind.

I simply just don't know where this talk of a tailwind comes from. It appears the Henderson tweet is the source. But I think he was joking as he was drinking beer up d'Huez and just having a general laugh so I'm not sure he's a good source.

Perhaps someone should ask Henderson on Twitter?

To settle the bet.

 

[sniper]

You should read my posts and not some trolls intentional misrepresentation of my posts.

I wrote, very clearly, that Semnoz and Alp d'Huez were better examples of questionable performances. Riders said there was a tailwind, the video shows a tailwind. Many of the experts, like Ross Tucker, who calculate W/kg and VAM for most stages agree there was a tailwind. Pointing this fact out is not a declaration of support for Froome, just that there are better climbs to use as a measurement.

I doubt a clean rider will ever match Pantani on Alp d'Huez, Hautacam, etc. What is the limit? Don't know, 6.2 w/kg for 30 min or over is certainly questionable. 6.4 w/kg should set off alarms...6.7, Pas Normal. That is Riis, Pantani area.

Here is an interesting link to some of the best outputs of all time, and some from this year.

http://tour-manager.freehostia.com/start.php

Seeing axe3d and ventoux should have set off all sorts of alarmbells. And in fact it did. Perhaps not with you, but with a whole lot of independent observers. Then to see Froome and Quintana bring similar efforts in week 3 of the TdF. Pas normal / Lance-esque.

There's no need to assume that numbers aren't being manipulated in order to keep the skeptics at bay. I don't trust the numbers, and it's slightly odd that you of all people should put such high value on them whenever they speak in froome's favor.
You know what you saw n'etait pas normal.

Anti-anti-doping is developing more rapidly than anti-doping.

Vaughters thinks/thought Contador is/was one of the finest talents he'd ever seen/tested.
To see a well-prepared Contador get blown away by Froome...
Pas normal. Let's not bend around the bush here.

 

[Race Radio]

Seeing axe3d and ventoux should have set off all sorts of alarmbells. And in fact it did. Perhaps not with you, but with a whole lot of independent observers. Then to see Froome and Quintana bring similar efforts in week 3 of the TdF. Pas normal / Lance-esque.

There's no need to assume that numbers aren't being manipulated in order to keep the skeptics at bay. I don't trust the numbers, and it's slightly odd that you of all people should put such high value on them whenever they speak in froome's favor.
You know what you saw n'etait pas normal.

Anti-anti-doping is developing more rapidly than anti-doping.

Vaughters thinks/thought Contador is/was one of the finest talents he'd ever seen/tested.
To see a well-prepared Contador get blown away by Froome...
Pas normal. Let's not bend around the bush here.

Again, I suggest you read my actual posts and not some trolls intentional distortion of them. I have written clearly about most of the points you have made.

 

[thehog]

Oh no, I guess we have to add Ross Tucker, from the great site The Sports Scientist to the list

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23368970

Hard to keep track of all the people on the being paid off by Sky. Walsh, Frankie, LeMond, Tucker, Grappe. I need to figure out how to get on that gravy train.

Again, I suggest you read my actual posts and not some trolls intentional distortion of them. I have written clearly about most of the points you have made.

Ok. I'll read your post.

So your stating that everyone here is saying that Sky is paying off "the great" Ross Tucker to say there was a tailwind?

Then you're suggesting Sky are paying Frankie, LeMond and Grappe.

Sky are paying Walsh because he works for them via the Sunday Times/News Corp.

Sounds to me you're throwing some mud about.

Now who's trolling?

It is clear but you are selectively looking for quotes that fit your wind theory and posting them. Albeit you could only find one.

We've al watched the videos. There's not a tailwind for 80% of the climb as you state.

Sorry but there is no evidence of a tailwind. Even the great Ross Tucker doesn't cite his source for the tailwind.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Here is an interesting link to some of the best outputs of all time, and some from this year.

http://tour-manager.freehostia.com/start.php

The only interesting there are the climbing times as the W/K are off due to the incorrect weight of the riders.
http://tour-manager.freehostia.com/Suche.php
http://tour-manager.freehostia.com/climbingtimes.htm
Froome 72kg? Uh uh.
Quintana 59kg? Uh uh.

But, still convinced on the howling tailwind in the Ventoux forest and lower parts? Is that when Semnoz and now Alpe d'Huez kicks in? Extraordinary performances by Froome are due to backwind, when guys 'beat' him - the race was already won so no need to win on Semnoz or the Alpe - the performances are questionable. That sounds like the Wiggins 2012 mantra: 'we ride at a certain wattage and when someone beats us that is impossible, that can only be done with extra blood'.

http://www.roadbikeaction.com/Relat...160/Racy-Language-The-Sky-Is-Not-Falling.html

The absolute record up Ventoux of 45:47 was set in an individual time trial at the 2004 Dauphine Libere' by Euskaltel's Iban Mayo. That day was hot and sunny, with a lighter than usual wind that gave the Spanish climber a side-tailwind up the exposed final 6.15km. The late Marco Pantani holds the Tour de France record of 46:00, set in 1994 on Stage 15 from Montpellier to Carpentras that scaled Ventoux on a sunny, calm day and finished on the north side Carpentras. Pantani audaciously attacked Maillot Jaune Indurain just after St.Esteve, taking 1'30" out of Indurain by the summit, but the Spaniard took many risks to pull Pantani back in the finale.

Chris Froome's time up Ventoux was 48'35", just 2" slower than Lance Armstrong's record time of 48'33" in 2002 on a stage won by Richard Virenque after a long solo break. Armstrong finished 3rd on the stage, 2'20" behind Virenque and put massive time to the rest of the top 10 that day, with hot conditions and a side-tailwind. The next three fastest times are from 2009; Stage 20 from Montélimar to Mont Ventoux. Andy Schleck and Alberto Contado posted 48'57, with Armstrong just behind in 49':00" and run with a 40km / hr. headwind. In 2000, Marco Pantani edged Lance Armstrong for the stage win atop Ventoux, with both riders finishing in 49':01", run in hot conditions with a strong headwind.

Some historic perspective.