World Politics

[auscyclefan94]

Was it the internet that robbed you of a moral compass or were you just born without it?

Who is that in reference to? Me?

 

[python]

Putin is the best political leader on this planet at this moment. A real pro.

He has no equivalent. Forza Putin !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMlsbB33QSc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0TEPO9jomE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcnIBBFPSUU

you might be on to something here...though i'd replace 'the best', with 'the most efficient and calculating'.

i recall watching recently a documentary podcast from a neocon think tank (on the russia-georgia war anniversary) where a sworn russophobe essentially promoted the same idea providing several real-life examples. he was foaming at his lips, swearing and spitting undiplomatic verbiage but he was speaking facts...try to unearth the link if someone is interested.

 

[movingtarget]

Was it the internet that robbed you of a moral compass or were you just born without it?

Never a problem for Putin.

 

[darwin553]

Many Australians just want to forget about the Rudd/Gillard disaster. Labor will now ramp up their scare campaign about changes to GST, mass sackings, cuts to services, possible recession etc.... We heard about the "new" Julia and now the "New" Kevin. Rudd seems to be slipping further behind. It will also be the end of Peter Beattie and Bob Carr as well, thankfully.

Agree. It's time to draw a line in the sand for what has been a terrible period of governing federally.

 

[thrawn]

Agree. It's time to draw a line in the sand for what has been a terrible period of governing federally.

Sadly a change to the coalition won't make it any less horrible, as at present the party is full of morons.

Oh and btw, Bob Carr will still be a senator. He's Labor's #1 candidate in NSW.

 

[darwin553]

Oh and btw, Bob Carr will still be a senator. He's Labor's #1 candidate in NSW.

Of course it's the only way that he would be able to remain in Parliament. He would stand no chance if he was running for a lower house seat IMO. In any event, I can't see him staying around if Abbott wins.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Sadly a change to the coalition won't make it any less horrible, as at present the party is full of morons.

Oh and btw, Bob Carr will still be a senator. He's Labor's #1 candidate in NSW.

A Party full of morons which is why there are lots of MPs and candidates who have been successful in their own fields before entering Parliament and have been successful in Parliament. There are over 16 cabinet ministers who were in the Howard Government, therefore knowing how to run the country properly.

Bob Carr will retire after the election, he has no purpose hanging around in opposition.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

I'm quite sceptical of the allegations that the syrian regime were behind the recent chemical weapons attack. Assad may be a ruthless dictator, but nothing suggests he's incredibly stupid, suicidal or clinically insane. The man is rational and all he wants to do is stay in power. To do so, the absolute last thing he needs is a NATO-intervention a la Libya. If he can't figure out on his own that gassing 2 000 people is the best way to give NATO an excuse to bomb away, then western leaders saying so just months ago would've caused the penny to drop. The timing makes it even weirder. They just approved a UN inspection. Why would they gas women and children on the day the inspectors arrive? This only benefits the rebels. They clearly have an incentive to deploy chemical weapons and blame the regime since a NATO-intervention is their dream scenario.

It appears the extremists among the rebels do have access to chemical weapons.

U.N. has testimony that Syrian rebels used sarin gas: investigator
May 5, 2013

(Reuters) - U.N. human rights investigators have gathered testimony from casualties of Syria's civil war and medical staff indicating that rebel forces have used the nerve agent sarin, one of the lead investigators said on Sunday.

The United Nations independent commission of inquiry on Syria has not yet seen evidence of government forces having used chemical weapons, which are banned under international law, said commission member Carla Del Ponte.

"Our investigators have been in neighboring countries interviewing victims, doctors and field hospitals and, according to their report of last week which I have seen, there are strong, concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof of the use of sarin gas, from the way the victims were treated," Del Ponte said in an interview with Swiss-Italian television.

"This was use on the part of the opposition, the rebels, not by the government authorities," she added, speaking in Italian.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/05/us-syria-crisis-un-idUSBRE94409Z20130505

Turkey arrests 12 in raids on "terrorist" organisation
Source: Reuters - Thu, 30 May 2013 07:56 PM

Earlier, several Turkish newspapers had reported that 12 people from Syria's al Qaeda-linked al-Nusra Front who allegedly had been planning an attack inside Turkey and were in possession of 2 kg (4.5 pounds) of sarin, had been detained in Adana.

Nusra is one of the most effective forces fighting President Bashar al-Assad and last month pledged allegiance to al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahri.

Experts have long said Nusra is receiving support from al Qaeda-linked militants in neighbouring Iraq.

http://www.trust.org/item/20130530195604-lqtsb

Iraks försvarsdepartement uppgav på lördagen att en terrorcell med kopplingar till al-Qaida har avslöjats i Irak. Gruppen var sysselsatt med att tillverka giftgas som sarin och senapsgas på tre olika platser i Bagdad.

Gruppen med fem medlemmar hade byggt produktionsenheterna efter instruktioner från andra al-Qaidagrupper. Cellen förberedde attacker i Irak, i grannländer och i Västeuropa och USA genom olika nätverk, hävdade al-Askari.

Translation:

Iraq's defense ministry said on Saturday that a terror cell with links to al-Qaeda have been uncovered in Iraq. The group was engaged in the manufacture of poisonous gas such as sarin and mustard gas at three different locations in Baghdad.

The group of five members had built production units following instructions from other al-Qaeda groups. The cell was preparing attacks in Iraq, neighboring countries and in Western Europe and the United States through various networks, alleged al-Askari.

http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/grupp-med-giftgasplaner-avslojad/

Plus the Al-Nusra take over of the SYSACCO factory near Aleppo.

I wouldn't be so quick to assume the regime were behind this.

 

[ToreBear]

I understand your sceptisism. I share it, but there are some things that should be noted.

Chemical weapons are not easy to use effectively. You have to have a way of delivering them effectively and in the right amount on the target. You have to have the wind in your favor. You need protective equipment for the ones doing the delivery. This takes a huge amount of organization and logistics, and a lot of man power. You cant just have ten guys placing canisters around and setting them off, since dispersal of the agents is difficult. You need munitions that disperse it correctly. And I think we are talking about 100s of liters of chemicals here.

As to your question, why would he be so stupid. Well he was told last year that using cw would be a red line. There was some use of cw last year, but in a much smaller amount and nothing happened. Why did nothing happen? Because no one wants to get involved. This is a mess that is not easily solvable with an intervention. In fact it is only likely to suck lives and resources out of the interveners. No one really wants to use their strained budgets, and risk the lives of their soldiers for an intervention that might not make things better, and might even make things worse.

Perhaps Assad and those around him thought that there is no will in the international community to do anything, and as long as they could keep the issue of who did it confused they could get away with it.

So the question is if the use in this case is worth the risk. The areas in question are to the east of the center of Damascus. The Syrian government has not been able to enter and remove the rebels from this area, and they are a constant thorn in Assads strategic position.

So you combine the belief that there will be no intervention with the need to clear these areas and you have the answer as to why this was done.

Then the question is why would western powers intervene. The answer is that chemical weapons are a taboo for good reason. They were used a 100 years ago to good effect with many casualties. After that the consensus became not to use them. This held even in the second world war. The Germans had huge stockpiles of a new generation of weapons that were even more effective, but even someone as nasty as Hitler did not use them.

The Japanese used them to some extent against the Chinese, but stopped when the US threatened to retaliate. The Japanese did not have advanced CW capability, but used them against the Chinese because they had no capability.

70 years later and the weapons developed in the 50s and 60s are even more deadly.

The thing with CW is that it can be a game changer in this conflict, since there is really only one side that can use them effectively, and the nature of the conflict as it has developed would make their use extremely effective.

This conflict has or is slowly evolving into a war of ethnically divided areas. The villages and towns held by the opposition are extremely difficult to capture for the Syrian Army. They had help from Hizbullah in retaking a town close to Lebanon, but they are not getting this help in other areas. That means there are towns the oppositions can use as fortresses to operate from.

If the Syrian government could use CW without consequences they could use them to max effect.

In this case they could use less persistent agents, and then after the agent has dissipated enter and fight it out with the survivors, or they can use persistent agents, and render areas uninhabitable for perhaps weeks.

Sarin is a quick evaporating agent(low persistence). It's a nice weapon compared to the nasty stuff that is persistent like Sulfur mustard that was used a 100 years ago, and the real nasty stuff that became available in the 50s and 60s, namely the VR and VX agents which contaminates and area for weeks.

So without anything stopping Assad he could order his forces to gas villages and towns when they become infested by the opposition. We are talking about ethnic cleansing on an unheard of scale.

Something IMHO needs to be done to convince Assad that use of these weapons is a very bad idea.

 

[Alphabet]

I was doing one of those online 'political compass' tests, and I reckon it might be interesting if some of the regs in this thread posted up their results:

http://slackhalla.org/~demise/test/...lackhalla.org/~demise/test/socialattitude.php

It's so easy to score 'leftie points' on that test. ACF will probably come back with a 300 for socialism or something

 

[thrawn]

This is mine:

'Political Values

Radicalism 91.25
Socialism 43.75
Tenderness 50

These scores indicate that you are a progressive; this is the political profile one might associate with a university professor. It appears that you are skeptical towards religion, and have a pragmatic attitude towards humanity in general.

Your attitudes towards economics appear neither committedly capitalist nor socialist, and combined with your social attitudes this creates the picture of someone who would generally be described as a political centrist.

To round out the picture you appear to be, political preference aside, a centrist with few strong opinions.'

Some pretty ridiculous questions though.

 

[Alphabet]

The one on men with long hair was bizarre.

 

[RetroActive]

I understand your sceptisism. I share it, but there are some things that should be noted.

Chemical weapons are not easy to use effectively. You have to have a way of delivering them effectively and in the right amount on the target. You have to have the wind in your favor. You need protective equipment for the ones doing the delivery. This takes a huge amount of organization and logistics, and a lot of man power. You cant just have ten guys placing canisters around and setting them off, since dispersal of the agents is difficult. You need munitions that disperse it correctly. And I think we are talking about 100s of liters of chemicals here.

As to your question, why would he be so stupid. Well he was told last year that using cw would be a red line. There was some use of cw last year, but in a much smaller amount and nothing happened. Why did nothing happen? Because no one wants to get involved. This is a mess that is not easily solvable with an intervention. In fact it is only likely to suck lives and resources out of the interveners. No one really wants to use their strained budgets, and risk the lives of their soldiers for an intervention that might not make things better, and might even make things worse.

Perhaps Assad and those around him thought that there is no will in the international community to do anything, and as long as they could keep the issue of who did it confused they could get away with it.

So the question is if the use in this case is worth the risk. The areas in question are to the east of the center of Damascus. The Syrian government has not been able to enter and remove the rebels from this area, and they are a constant thorn in Assads strategic position.

So you combine the belief that there will be no intervention with the need to clear these areas and you have the answer as to why this was done.

Then the question is why would western powers intervene. The answer is that chemical weapons are a taboo for good reason. They were used a 100 years ago to good effect with many casualties. After that the consensus became not to use them. This held even in the second world war. The Germans had huge stockpiles of a new generation of weapons that were even more effective, but even someone as nasty as Hitler did not use them.

The Japanese used them to some extent against the Chinese, but stopped when the US threatened to retaliate. The Japanese did not have advanced CW capability, but used them against the Chinese because they had no capability.

70 years later and the weapons developed in the 50s and 60s are even more deadly.

The thing with CW is that it can be a game changer in this conflict, since there is really only one side that can use them effectively, and the nature of the conflict as it has developed would make their use extremely effective.

This conflict has or is slowly evolving into a war of ethnically divided areas. The villages and towns held by the opposition are extremely difficult to capture for the Syrian Army. They had help from Hizbullah in retaking a town close to Lebanon, but they are not getting this help in other areas. That means there are towns the oppositions can use as fortresses to operate from.

If the Syrian government could use CW without consequences they could use them to max effect.

In this case they could use less persistent agents, and then after the agent has dissipated enter and fight it out with the survivors, or they can use persistent agents, and render areas uninhabitable for perhaps weeks.

Sarin is a quick evaporating agent(low persistence). It's a nice weapon compared to the nasty stuff that is persistent like Sulfur mustard that was used a 100 years ago, and the real nasty stuff that became available in the 50s and 60s, namely the VR and VX agents which contaminates and area for weeks.

So without anything stopping Assad he could order his forces to gas villages and towns when they become infested by the opposition. We are talking about ethnic cleansing on an unheard of scale.

Something IMHO needs to be done to convince Assad that use of these weapons is a very bad idea.

You're making a large assumption that it was Assad.
Israel used white phosphorus during cast lead, confirmed, crickets chirping.
The U.S., Britain and Israel use depleted uranium continuousily, confirmed, crickets again.

 

[darwin553]

Putin 2.0?

Hopefully not in a policy sense, but he seems to be above Putin in a physical sense as a political leader!

In a bench contest Putin would win but in sheer stamina and endurance events Abbott would win hands down.

 

[Alphabet]

Putin however is the coolest person on the planet (except maybe Ivan Basso), unlike Abbott; so I'm not sure the super fit macho man image suits Abbott as well as it does Putin.

 

[ToreBear]

I was doing one of those online 'political compass' tests, and I reckon it might be interesting if some of the regs in this thread posted up their results:


http://slackhalla.org/~demise/test/...lackhalla.org/~demise/test/socialattitude.php

It's so easy to score 'leftie points' on that test. ACF will probably come back with a 300 for socialism or something

I get forbidden when I click on the link. Perhaps it's georestricted or something?

You're making a large assumption that it was Assad.
Israel used white phosphorus during cast lead, confirmed, crickets chirping.
The U.S., Britain and Israel use depleted uranium continuousily, confirmed, crickets again.

And your argument is what exactly?

 

[Alphabet]

I'm getting a 403 Forbidden now as well . The site must be broken.

 

[auscyclefan94]

This is mine:

'Political Values

Radicalism 91.25
Socialism 43.75
Tenderness 50

These scores indicate that you are a progressive; this is the political profile one might associate with a university professor. It appears that you are skeptical towards religion, and have a pragmatic attitude towards humanity in general.

Your attitudes towards economics appear neither committedly capitalist nor socialist, and combined with your social attitudes this creates the picture of someone who would generally be described as a political centrist.

To round out the picture you appear to be, political preference aside, a centrist with few strong opinions.'

Some pretty ridiculous questions though.

I was a compassionate laissez faire capitalist.

 

[python]

i have no reason to take a tyrant like assad at his word that he would not use cw. but in light of contemporary statements and the later verified facts, the utterance of american politicians equally lack credibility.

it is a logical fact that assad (as most western think tanks like to term it) in the light of the overwhelming response from the west, lacked credible motivation, unlike the jihadists desperate to suck in the west.

in fact, as weird as it may sounds, if assad cared, he could claim to stand on a higher moral ground with respect to the use of wmd than any american leader.

it is a proven fact, he did not use the false pretext of wmd to invade another country. it is a proven fact, he did not pour millions of gallons of agent orange on the heads of millions of peaceful civilians. it is a proven fact, he did not supply saddam with satellite-derived intelligence on the iranian troop locations used by saddam to gas his enemies...

some historians can come up with many more facts - all pointing to america’s zero credibility on giving lectures (much less administering ‘punishments’) for the use of wmd…the us remains the only state that lacking any military necessity used atomic weapons to kill hundreds of thousands Japanese civilians..

name me another contemporary country calling itself the beacon of human rights that committed more crimes against the very humanity...

and torebear, keep in mind that a chemical weapon delivery is NOT as technically complicated as you think. A stolen shell or a self-made canister, can be delivered by a number of means available to the suicidal rebels backed up by Saudi intelligence…from being fired by a field mortar to grenade launcher to being dispersed from a tunnel…

 

[darwin553]

Putin however is the coolest person on the planet (except maybe Ivan Basso), unlike Abbott; so I'm not sure the super fit macho man image suits Abbott as well as it does Putin.

Can a dictator be cool though?

 

[Alphabet]

Why not? Guys like Putin are the reason the smiley was invented

Besides, Putin is no Stalin/Ceausescu/Amin/Kim. His 'dictatorship' consists solely of his government cracking down on dissidents and on staying in power for as long as possible. He doesn't go around killing millions and actively oppressing people in every aspect of their life for fun unlike most of the relatively recent dictators.

Pretty much every government has to crack down on dissidents (although in fairness, western governments only prosecute the most aggressive/threatening of dissidents, not ordinary people who stand around complaining). Otherwise the US would be under Sharia law by now.

 

[darwin553]

Why not? Guys like Putin are the reason the smiley was invented

Besides, Putin is no Stalin/Ceausescu/Amin/Kim. His 'dictatorship' consists solely of his government cracking down on dissidents and on staying in power for as long as possible. He doesn't go around killing millions and actively oppressing people in every aspect of their life for fun unlike most of the relatively recent dictators.

Pretty much every government has to crack down on dissidents (although in fairness, western governments only prosecute the most aggressive/threatening of dissidents, not ordinary people who stand around complaining). Otherwise the US would be under Sharia law by now.

I'm not much for the sympathetic approach to Putin.

 

[movingtarget]

I'm not much for the sympathetic approach to Putin.

Locking up opponents, having journalists arrested or worse, supporting Syria as a buyer of it's weapons, having selected oligarchs imprisoned while letting other's thrive. Stopping adoptions of children that Russians either don't want or can't look after. Enacting ridiculous anti gay legislation. A class act alright.

 

[RetroActive]

And your argument is what exactly?

No arguement, just pointing out the blatant hypocrisy floating around like turds in a bathtub.

 

[thrawn]

Why not? Guys like Putin are the reason the smiley was invented

Besides, Putin is no Stalin/Ceausescu/Amin/Kim. His 'dictatorship' consists solely of his government cracking down on dissidents and on staying in power for as long as possible. He doesn't go around killing millions and actively oppressing people in every aspect of their life for fun unlike most of the relatively recent dictators.

Pretty much every government has to crack down on dissidents (although in fairness, western governments only prosecute the most aggressive/threatening of dissidents, not ordinary people who stand around complaining). Otherwise the US would be under Sharia law by now.

Go ask Russia's gay community if they feel oppressed.