World Politics

[ToreBear]

i have no reason to take a tyrant like assad at his word that he would not use cw. but in light of contemporary statements and the later verified facts, the utterance of american politicians equally lack credibility.

it is a logical fact that assad (as most western think tanks like to term it) in the light of the overwhelming response from the west, lacked credible motivation, unlike the jihadists desperate to suck in the west.

in fact, as weird as it may sounds, if assad cared, he could claim to stand on a higher moral ground with respect to the use of wmd than any american leader.

it is a proven fact, he did not use the false pretext of wmd to invade another country. it is a proven fact, he did not pour millions of gallons of agent orange on the heads of millions of peaceful civilians. it is a proven fact, he did not supply saddam with satellite-derived intelligence on the iranian troop locations used by saddam to gas his enemies...

some historians can come up with many more facts - all pointing to america’s zero credibility on giving lectures (much less administering ‘punishments’) for the use of wmd…the us remains the only state that lacking any military necessity used atomic weapons to kill hundreds of thousands Japanese civilians..

name me another contemporary country calling itself the beacon of human rights that committed more crimes against the very humanity...

American hypocrisy and self delusionment ****es me off too, but I don't want the Syrian civil war to become a war of ethnic cleansing by chemical weapons. If this attack was carried out by Assad and there is no response to this, I do not see what could stop him from doing so again, and to even greater effect.

As for your argument regarding Assad. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that he wouldn't dare use CW because of the response of the outside world? CW has been used and ignored for the past year. I think partly because the attacks were small, and partly because no one wants to get involved the outside reaction was minimal. Assad might have though he could get away with more and approved this attack. IMHO, this time he miscalculated outside reaction. The motivation to use these weapons was a difficult military situation.

As for the use of nukes in ww2 I'm not so sure it was not viewed as a military necessity at the time. If you view it with perfect hindsight, you might think it was unnecesarry, but those taking the decisions at the time, did not have all the information we have now, nor did they perhaps fully understand emotionally what they were authorising to be used.

I take the view that, had those two Japanese cities not been bombed, and the full horror of their effect been revealed, MacArthur would have gotten his will and used Nuclear weapons in the Korean war when the Chinese were overrunning his forces. MacAarthur would IMHO have been able to wreak havoc(saving asia from communism), killing millions of chinese before Truman would have found the moral courage to stop him.

and torebear, keep in mind that a chemical weapon delivery is NOT as technically complicated as you think. A stolen shell or a self-made canister, can be delivered by a number of means available to the suicidal rebels backed up by Saudi intelligence…from being fired by a field mortar to grenade launcher to being dispersed from a tunnel…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_warfare#Delivery

The thing is, that we are not talking about a shell or a self made canister, we are talking about many canisters in many areas at the same time. Dispersing from a tunnel would not affect a large area. It would kill the people in the tunnel, and injure those in the immediate vincinity, nothing more IMHO.

It would take a lot of people to carry this out without anybody noticing, or telling someone. I guess it could be done in theory, but I doubt it.

I think the UN inspectors can tell us more when they complete their work. One could always construct a situation with the jihadis doing an elaborate james bond plot, but I think that is building conspiracy theories.

 

[ToreBear]

I'm getting a 403 Forbidden now as well . The site must be broken.

It seems clicking the links elicits the link written twice in the browser. Removing the part before the second http solved the problem

Political Values

Radicalism 85.75
Socialism 87.5
Tenderness 56.25

These scores indicate that you are a progressive; this is the political profile one might associate with a university professor. It appears that you are skeptical towards religion, and have a pragmatic attitude towards humanity in general.

Your attitudes towards economics appear communist, and combined with your social attitudes this creates the picture of someone who would generally be described as left-wing.

To round out the picture you appear to be, political preference aside, an egalitarian with several strong opinions.

This concludes our analysis; we hope you found your results accurate, useful, and interesting.


Unlike many other political tests found on the Internet which base themselves on untested (and usually ideologically motivated) ideas, this inventory is adapted from Hans Eysenck's own political inventory which was developed after extensive empirical investigations in the 20th Century.

Yep in extensive empirical investigations in the 20 century UK and US no doubt.

 

[ToreBear]

No arguement, just pointing out the blatant hypocrisy floating around like turds in a bathtub.

I tend to see things in degrees of hypocrisy, not either or. It makes it much easier to understand international relations without getting my blood boiling.

 

[Amsterhammer]

What bothers me is this - whatever one may think of Assad, one thing he has shown himself not to be till now, is stupid. Why on earth would they launch a chem attack in a suburb of Damascus, where it was bound to be reported to the world within minutes? It makes absolutely no sense from his perspective. It makes every kind of sense to suppose that some jihadi group would see such an attack as the perfect propaganda coup to finally involve outside powers more directly on their side.

 

[RetroActive]

What bothers me is this - whatever one may think of Assad, one thing he has shown himself not to be till now, is stupid. Why on earth would they launch a chem attack in a suburb of Damascus, where it was bound to be reported to the world within minutes? It makes absolutely no sense from his perspective. It makes every kind of sense to suppose that some jihadi group would see such an attack as the perfect propaganda coup to finally involve outside powers more directly on their side.

George Galloway 2013 Parliament on Syria
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPh4_wWuB6g

 

[Amsterhammer]

George Galloway 2013 Parliament on Syria
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPh4_wWuB6g

Brilliant! Thanks, I hadn't seen this, which is not too surprising since paying attention to what is said in Westminster is not frightfully high on my to-do list.

 

[RetroActive]

Brilliant! Thanks, I hadn't seen this, which is not too surprising since paying attention to what is said in Westminster is not frightfully high on my to-do list.

George is quite an orator. If you've never seen him before the U.S. senate check it out. Somebody got a spanking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4LDQixpCa8

 

[darwin553]

Locking up opponents, having journalists arrested or worse, supporting Syria as a buyer of it's weapons, having selected oligarchs imprisoned while letting other's thrive. Stopping adoptions of children that Russians either don't want or can't look after. Enacting ridiculous anti gay legislation. A class act alright.

Not wrong there

 

[ToreBear]

What bothers me is this - whatever one may think of Assad, one thing he has shown himself not to be till now, is stupid. Why on earth would they launch a chem attack in a suburb of Damascus, where it was bound to be reported to the world within minutes? It makes absolutely no sense from his perspective. It makes every kind of sense to suppose that some jihadi group would see such an attack as the perfect propaganda coup to finally involve outside powers more directly on their side.

I think you are assuming there will be consequences for Assad for this attack. That is still uncertain, due to nobody really wanting to get involved if they can possibly see another option.

If there are consequences, you might call him stupid, if there are no consequences you might call him smart. It's about gaugeing world politics, and finding out what you can get away with.

If I were Assad I would be looking at the response to my previous use of CW. This has had no consequences, except for debate and finger pointing. So you have these thorns in the side of your capital that you have been unable to dislodge. There have been no consequences of previous CW attacks that have been on a smaller scale, so you figure there is no will to do anything in the outside world, because they have ignored you so far.

That is perfectly logical.

If Assad had been smart, he would have been serious about reform when the peaceful demonstrations started, he choose the stupid thing and went with confrontation, and now his country is ruined with thousands of dead and wounded and millions of refugees. I call that stupid, then again, I don't know how constrained he was in regards to his political situation. So for him, it might have been the smart thing to do.

So, what is stupid or smart is in my view not so easy to understand, because there are so many unknown factors involved in decision making.

 

[ToreBear]

George Galloway 2013 Parliament on Syria
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPh4_wWuB6g

Thanks, he has some good points, and some points I would disagree with, or want more nuance, but he is on limited time, and needs to make the most impact he can.

 

[del1962]

So Cameron has found the perfect way out.

When/if the full scale of Assad's attrocities come out, he can just say they stopped him, without needing to take any action now.

 

[ToreBear]

So Cameron has found the perfect way out.

When/if the full scale of Assad's attrocities come out, he can just say they stopped him, without needing to take any action now.

As far as I understand it, he needs to exhaust all options available in the UN system before he can come back to the parliament.

That means waiting for the inspectors report, then going to the security council, and get a refusal there, and then come back to parliament again. When those things have been done, public understanding of the situation and support for action should perhaps have increased.

But he does seem a bit amateurish in recalling parliament only to get voted down. He should have been a bit more aware of the mood before taking it up for a vote.

 

[del1962]

As far as I understand it, he needs to exhaust all options available in the UN system before he can come back to the parliament.

That means waiting for the inspectors report, then going to the security council, and get a refusal there, and then come back to parliament again. When those things have been done, public understanding of the situation and support for action should perhaps have increased.

But he does seem a bit amateurish in recalling parliament only to get voted down. He should have been a bit more aware of the mood before taking it up for a vote.

I don' know when the truth about what Assad has done finally comes out, in his memoirs he can turn round and say he would have taken action, but those ****** stopped me.

 

[Alphabet]

Go ask Russia's gay community if they feel oppressed.

Of course they do. But homophobia is as deeply ingrained in Russian culture as it is in Qatar or Jamaica. Anybody clamouring for homosexual rights would be committing political suicide. It's sad, but it's nothing more sinister than some political expediency. Putin did not create Russia (nor did he create its culture), he merely lives in it. Blaming him exclusively (or even at all) for anti-homosexual sentiment in Russia is akin to blaming the King of Saudi Arabia for refusing to decriminalize alcohol.

I'm not much for the sympathetic approach to Putin.

Nor am I, but at the end of it, I only brought him up because I consider him to be the 'coolest' politician in all history (well, maybe Tiberius Gracchus would give him a run for his money). He has cultivated an extraordinary persona, the ex-KGB James Bond super agent, who has maintained himself as a perfect physical specimen and does some insane stunts for no good reason.

 

[darwin553]

Of course they do. But homophobia is as deeply ingrained in Russian culture as it is in Qatar or Jamaica. Anybody clamouring for homosexual rights would be committing political suicide. It's sad, but it's nothing more sinister than some political expediency. Putin did not create Russia (nor did he create its culture), he merely lives in it. Blaming him exclusively (or even at all) for anti-homosexual sentiment in Russia is akin to blaming the King of Saudi Arabia for refusing to decriminalize alcohol.



Nor am I, but at the end of it, I only brought him up because I consider him to be the 'coolest' politician in all history (well, maybe Tiberius Gracchus would give him a run for his money). He has cultivated an extraordinary persona, the ex-KGB James Bond super agent, who has maintained himself as a perfect physical specimen and does some insane stunts for no good reason.

I couldn't give a **** when it comes to whether a nation's leader is cool or not, what matters is that they are competent, fair and lead in the nation's interest.

 

[Alphabet]

The discussion, before it morphed into debating the morals of Putin's leadership, was about comparing Abbott and Putin on the grounds of coolness.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Six days until Australia will be run by the adults. I just can't wait.

 

[darwin553]

Six days until Australia will be run by the adults. I just can't wait.

Looking forward to it. It's been a long 6 years.

 

[The Hitch]

George is quite an orator. If you've never seen him before the U.S. senate check it out. Somebody got a spanking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4LDQixpCa8

Have you got the one where he tells Saddam Hussein how he is adored by the west and how much courage he has. Or the one with him privately meeting udai (the psychopathic son) to discuss business that was released a few years after that hearing and confirmed that galloway had lied during it. on the home front I wonder if Galloway inciting racial tensions to get the majority Asian population to vote against the minority black candidate in the 2005 election ranks in your top 10.

If your not a big fan of dictators and death and racism though the one where he pretends to be a cat on the Big Brother reality tv show and licks a woman's hands while doing cat noises, is i hear, quite amusing.

Still I suppose since we are discussing Putin he has some relevance here as Galloway is the other politician besides Putin to have said that the fall of the soviet union was the greatest tragedy of the 20th century.

 

[Amsterhammer]

So, farewell then Sir David, you asked some good questions, occasionally.

 

[Echoes]

i have no reason to take a tyrant like assad at his word that he would not use cw.

Assad's not a tyrant. He didn't come to power after a coup.

some historians can come up with many more facts - all pointing to america’s zero credibility on giving lectures (much less administering ‘punishments’) for the use of wmd…the us remains the only state that lacking any military necessity used atomic weapons to kill hundreds of thousands Japanese civilians..

+1

and the only state that spread Agent Orange all around South Vietnam. The state that used depleted uranium in Serbia ...

Besides, Putin is no Stalin/Ceausescu/Amin/Kim. His 'dictatorship' consists solely of his government cracking down on dissidents and on staying in power for as long as possible.

Cracking down on who ???

Putin's 'dictatorship' consists of winning perfectly democratic elections by a landslide lol.

Go ask Russia's gay community if they feel oppressed.

There's no such things as a gay community. In Russia there's only one community. The Russian community.

Ask a Russian gay if he feels oppressed, he'd answer no.

When/if the full scale of Assad's attrocities come out,

Which atrocities? Massacre Western-sponsored terrorists ??? He's right to do so.

Total support for Assad !

But homophobia is as deeply ingrained in Russian culture [...]

Russophobia is deeply ingrained in Western culture.

Have you got the one where he tells Saddam Hussein how he is adored by the west and how much courage he has.

Nope. But Saddam had enormous courage and should be adored.

Galloway is the other politician besides Putin to have said that the fall of the soviet union was the greatest tragedy of the 20th century.

Yes. Eltsin's Russia was a disaster.

 

[RetroActive]

"... when the struggle seems to be drifting definitely towards a world social democracy, there may still be very great delays and disappointments before it becomes an efficient and beneficent world system. Countless people ... will hate the new world order ... and will die protesting against it. When we attempt to evaluate its promise, we have to bear in mind the distress of a generation or so of malcontents, many of them quite gallant and graceful-looking people." -- H. G. Wells, in his book entitled "The New World Order" (1939)

 

[Netserk]

Assad's not a tyrant. He didn't come to power after a coup.

The same could be said about the Chaplin figure....

 

[The Hitch]

Ask a Russian gay if he feels oppressed, he'd answer no.

Ask your hero Putin what he thinks of you and he might just reply, with disdain, - "useful idiot"

Seriously though that post of yours is very disturbing. You hero-worship psychopathic mass murderers and like those neo Nazis in "American History X" proudly carry your extremist dangerous ideology on your breast plate apparently unaware that it makes others think you are mentally ill.

You also see nothing wrong in speaking generically and totally for a community - Russian homosexuals, of which you are not part of, refusing to offer any backup for the astonishingly simple conclusion you give.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

I think Assad is actually telling the truth here.

In contrast, there are particular countries that have directly mobilised and buttressed terrorism in Syria. Predominantly Qatar and Turkey in the first two years]

2009: Qatar seeks gas pipeline to Turkey

Qatar has proposed a gas pipeline from the Gulf to Turkey in a sign the emirate is considering a further expansion of exports from the world's biggest gasfield after it finishes an ambitious programme to more than double its capacity to produce liquefied natural gas (LNG).

The reports said two different routes for such a pipeline were possible. One would lead from Qatar through Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq to Turkey. The other would go through Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and on to Turkey. It was not clear whether the second option would be connected to the Pan-Arab pipeline, carrying Egyptian gas through Jordan to Syria. That pipeline, which is due to be extended to Turkey, has also been proposed as a source of gas for Nabucco.

Based on production from the massive North Field in the Gulf, Qatar has established a commanding position as the world's leading LNG exporter. It is consolidating that through a construction programme aimed at increasing its annual LNG production capacity to 77 million tonnes by the end of next year, from 31 million tonnes last year. However, in 2005, the emirate placed a moratorium on plans for further development of the North Field in order to conduct a reservoir study. It recently extended the ban for two years to 2013.

But now there are signs that Qatar's government is looking beyond the moratorium to what it will do next with massive gas reserves that, at about 900 trillion cubic feet, are the world's third-largest. Last week, Saad al Kaabi, the director of oil and gas projects for the government-owned Qatar Petroleum, said Qatar could produce 23 billion cubic feet per day (cfd) of gas by 2014. That would be more than triple the emirate's output last year of 7.4 billion cfd, and 64 per cent more than its estimated 14 billion cfd of potential production once the LNG expansion programme is completed.

Abdullah al Attiyah, the Qatari deputy prime minister and energy minister, has expressed concerns about flooding an already glutted international LNG market. Exporting gas by pipeline, which is cheaper than cooling it to liquid form for shipment in specialised tankers, might be an attractive alternative. But cross-border pipeline projects more often than not face substantial political hurdles, as Nabucco's proponents have discovered.

http://www.thenational.ae/business/energy/qatar-seeks-gas-pipeline-to-turkey#ixzz2dhoPicMM

In 2009, Assad refused to sign an agreement with Qatar for an overland pipeline running from the Gulf to Europe via Syria

http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...NG.c0b07c0fd43690568ae07ab83f87f608.6d1&hl=en

Instead, he signed a 10 billion dollar pipeline deal with Iran and Iraq, which will supply gas from the South Pars field (which is the largest in the world) to Syria and beyond to other export markets.

Iraq, Iran, Syria Sign $10 Billion Gas-Pipeline Deal
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903591104576467631289250392.html#articleTabs=article

I bet this explains the influx of foreign jihadists and the strength of the Al-Qaeda affiliated Al-Nusra in the syrian opposition.

This reeks of proxy war with Iran.