World Politics

[CentralCaliBike]

No, my girlfriend wouldn't like that as she is 10 years older than me and is over 40. She is also just as progressive as I am.

It really does not matter if she is progressive or not, anything that suggests she should not have the right to vote is unlikely to be met with a smile.

 

[titan_90]

It really does not matter if she is progressive or not, anything that suggests she should not have the right to vote is unlikely to be met with a smile.

I believe that everybody that can vote should. My mother and I argue twice a year around election time because she doesn't vote.

I was simply stating that this country would be IMO a much better place if older people didn't vote as they are less likely to support something different than what they have known there whole life. My father worked one job his whole life and made a very liveable wage with awesome health benefits. He doesn't understand that there are not that many jobs like that anymore. He doesn't understand or seen to want to understand that the healthcare system in this county is bankrupting us as a nation. He is also a Republican, I am sorry if you think I am generalising but Republicans tend to be afraid of new and different ideas. I am not saying that Republicans are bad or stupid people.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I believe that everybody that can vote should. My mother and I argue twice a year around election time because she doesn't vote.

I was simply stating that this country would be IMO a much better place if older people didn't vote as they are less likely to support something different than what they have known there whole life. My father worked one job his whole life and made a very liveable wage with awesome health benefits. He doesn't understand that there are not that many jobs like that anymore. He doesn't understand or seen to want to understand that the healthcare system in this county is bankrupting us as a nation. He is also a Republican, I am sorry if you think I am generalising but Republicans tend to be afraid of new and different ideas. I am not saying that Republicans are bad or stupid people.

Conservative by definition means resistant to change or wanting to return to "old ways". The problem with that is that our founding fathers were "liberal", so what old ways would they have us return too?

 

[CentralCaliBike]

I believe that everybody that can vote should. My mother and I argue twice a year around election time because she doesn't vote.

I was simply stating that this country would be IMO a much better place if older people didn't vote as they are less likely to support something different than what they have known there whole life. My father worked one job his whole life and made a very liveable wage with awesome health benefits. He doesn't understand that there are not that many jobs like that anymore. He doesn't understand or seen to want to understand that the healthcare system in this county is bankrupting us as a nation. He is also a Republican, I am sorry if you think I am generalising but Republicans tend to be afraid of new and different ideas. I am not saying that Republicans are bad or stupid people.

It is possible that those older folks have experiences that tell them the progressive ideal does not mean progression for the average tax payer.

Consider this - if socialism works so well, why is it that this Country has become further in debt while increasing our social programs?

 

[titan_90]

It is possible that those older folks have experiences that tell them the progressive ideal does not mean progression for the average tax payer.

No, they simply are wrong.

Consider this - if socialism works so well, why is it that this Country has become further in debt while increasing our social programs?

Because of the Military-industrial complex. We would rather spend money on new and expensive was to kill each other than to help our own citizens in need. As I also stated in another post Americans are afraid to pay higher taxes.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

No, they simply are wrong.



Because of the Military-industrial complex. We would rather spend money on new and expensive was to kill each other than to help our own citizens in need. As I also stated in another post Americans are afraid to pay higher taxes.

I will tell you what - why don't you and all of the other progressives send all that extra money you are willing to pay in taxes to the IRS - tell them you would like it to go towards health care, social security, medicare, and every other entitlement of which you approve.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

I find it interesting that the Chinese have moved towards a market economy and increased their standard of living as a result:

http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~yqian/how%20far%20across%20the%20river.pdf

or if you want a less involved version:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/71826-china-s-improved-living-standard-contributing-to-global-economic-growth


Note: the Chinese government taking the conservative approach in cutting taxes.


Meanwhile, the United States has moved towards a socialist economy and decrease our standard of living:

http://www.rollcall.com/features/MissionAhead-AmericanWorker-2009_2009/ma_worker_future/34938-1.html

You will note that I posted a link to an author who has a differing opinion on the cause of the decrease in the standard of living - also, consider that the movement of manufacturing jobs offshore has resulted in an increase in the standard of living in many other countries around the world (which seems somewhat progressive even if it is not the intent of the companies that are moving the jobs - after all they are concerned about not being able to compete on a cost of production basis.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

????

The debts of the USA are not caused by the socialism of Obama, but by the free market/ ultra-liberalism of Bush & his friends & by banks who were games with money of the people...


Oh, and number 1 country on the HDI index (for a long time): Norway, Socialist country with high taxes...

 

[Bala Verde]

????

Oh, and number 1 country on the HDI index (for a long time): Norway, Socialist country with high taxes...

Here OECDis a link to some the tax rates in Europe.

USA 28.3%

Canada 33.3%
Denmark 48.9
Germany 36.2%
France 43.6%
U.K. 36.6%
Netherlands 38.0%
Norway 43.4%

Ironically, all these socialist countries still have a middle class, which according to their tax figures, should have been destroyed... most students don't have 5 figure debts and people don't go bankrupt when they need to go to the hospital.

Perhaps Switzerland should serve as an example. Low taxes (29.7), liberal gun laws (with one of the highest murder rates in Europe), recently transitioned to a 'socialized' form of health care and... oh wait, they have always remained neutral in conflicts.

Or maybe all the tea baggers want to move to tax paradise China, according to wikipedia (derived from the Heritage Foundation, see China):

In the most recent year, overall tax revenue as a percentage of GDP was 17.0 percent.

Somehow that tells me that taxation has little to do with being evilly 'socialist'...

 

[rhubroma]

No, they simply are wrong.



Because of the Military-industrial complex. We would rather spend money on new and expensive was to kill each other than to help our own citizens in need. As I also stated in another post Americans are afraid to pay higher taxes.

Correct on these points.

The problem with conservative Americans (and many so-called liberals too), is that they have been bread exclusively on the ultra-liberal form of capitalism (in fact the term "liberal" in Europe refers to one who supports a free market captalism without rules, and thus would be refered to as a "conservative" in the US) that they have no sense of the collective. Only the individual counts.

And, consequently, they have no socialist DNA in them. Nor can they phathom the type of social-democracy of the European model type, where taxes ensure medical assistance to all (even those who don't work). It strikes them simply as odd that they should even consider the collective at all, convinvced as they are that liberty is exclusively bound up in the individuals right to earn bucks, without having to consider the "other." What for, they say? I worked hard for the money I've made, why should my taxes be spent on other's healthcare?

What they forget, however, is that since the Enlightenment Age - out of which has risen the democratic state - humane principles have also played a fundamental role in ensuring the so-called liberty they so solemnly venerate as the guiding principle of their lives. Yet they have reduced the notion of liberty to mere egostic economic advancement, while at the same such economic advancement offered by free market capitalism has been made possible by society itself buying the goods and services these folks offer. In other words, nobody is really a "self-made man," the notion of which is a propagandistic myth that attempts to extol the individual as the king of fufillment and annihilates the very notion that society plays any role in one's economic achievments.

Without society, and the less fortunate in it, there would be no measure against which to assess an individual's richness. Consequently liberty in a social democracy has a much more noble spirit and takes on a broader sense, ensuring as it does the right for all (both the poor and the rich) to have access to decent healthcare, which in Europe (even among conservatives) is considered a right of birth and not something which only the wealthy can afford. That is everyone has the "liberty" and "freedom" to get medical treatment if they become ill, and here "liberty" and "freedom" of course transcend the rather base concept of it by American conservatives (i.e. liberal capitalists), and become integrated within the notion of humanitarian causes that the Enlightenment philosphers promoted against the tyranny of a priviledged elite.

Ironically conservative Americans, who traditionally despise elitism when thought of purely in terms of le gauche intellectual (which is why they voted for Bush, who wasn't exactly an intellectual but because of his family was de facto an elite), yet also support a capitalist system in the US which has created by its egotistical nature, that allows greed to thrive, an economic elite class of individuals who don't have to give back through their taxes to society and thus reign as a tyranny over it. American democracy is thus becoming a new type of modern oligarchy of a privileged elite economic class and a tyranny of the individuals that make it up - and thus flies directly against the whole modernist movement that began in the XVII century in Europe, out of which gave birth to the very American State.

Then of course these conservatives, who despise having thier taxes go toward paying someone elses healthcare, have no problems when it is spent on bailing out the financial institutions at Wall Street or the Military-Industrial block. And many of them are bigots who even have the temerity to believe that they are being good Christians. What hypocrits! I've often wondered if they have ever asked themselves (why by self-critical right?) if Christ today would be for socialist programs or liberal capitalism? No brainer there. And I'm not religious.

If they only realized just how outdated, sinister and inhumane their political ideology really is.

 

[hektoren]

Correct on these points.

The problem with conservative Americans (and many so-called liberals too), is that they have been bread exclusively on the ultra-liberal form of capitalism (in fact the term "liberal" in Europe refers to one who supports a free market captalism without rules, and thus would be refered to as a "conservative" in the US) that they have no sense of the collective. Only the individual counts.

And, consequently, they have no socialist DNA in them. Nor can they phathom the type of social-democracy of the European model type, where taxes ensure medical assistance to all (even those who don't work). It strikes them simply as odd that they should even consider the collective at all, convinvced as they are that liberty is exclusively bound up in the individuals right to earn bucks, without having to consider the "other." What for, they say? I worked hard for the money I've made, why should my taxes be spent on other's healthcare?

What they forget, however, is that since the Enlightenment Age - out of which has risen the democratic state - humane principles have also played a fundamental role in ensuring the so-called liberty they so solemnly venerate as the guiding principle of their lives. Yet they have reduced the notion of liberty to mere egostic economic advancement, while at the same such economic advancement offered by free market capitalism has been made possible by society itself buying the goods and services these folks offer. In other words, nobody is really a "self-made man," the notion of which is a propagandistic myth that attempts to extol the individual as the king of fufillment and annihilates the very notion that society plays any role in one's economic achievments.

Without society, and the less fortunate in it, there would be no measure against which to assess an individual's richness. Consequently liberty in a social democracy has a much more noble spirit and takes on a brouder sense, ensuring as it does the right for all (both the poor and the rich) to have access to decent healthcare, which in Europe (even among conservatives) is considered a right of birth and not something which only the wealthy can afford. That is everyone has the "liberty" and "freedom" to get medical treatment if they become ill, and here "liberty" and "freedom" of course transcend the rather base concept of it by American conservatives (i.e. liberal capitalists), and become integrated within the notion of humanitarian causes that the Enlightenment philosphers promoted against the tyranny of a priviledged elite.

Ironically conservative Americans, who traditionally despise elitism when thought of purely in terms of le gauche intellectual (which is why they voted for Bush, who wasn't exactly an intellectual but because of his family was de facto an elite), yet also support a capitalist system in the US which has created by its egotistical nature which allows greed to thrive an economic elite class of individuals who don't have to give back through their taxes to society and thus reign as a tyranny over it. American democracy is thus becoming a new type of modern oligarchy of a privileged elite economic class and a tyranny of the individuals that make it up - and thus flies directly against the whole modernist movement that began in the XVII century in Europe, out of which gave birth to the very American State.

Then of course these conservatives, who despise having thier taxes go toward paying someone elses healthcare, have no problems when it is spent on bailing out the financial institutions at Wall Street or the Military-Industrial block. And many of them are bigots who even have the temerity to believe that they are being good Christians. What hypocrits! I've often wondered if they have ever asked themselves (why by self-critical right?) if Christ today would be for socialist programs or liberal capitalism? No brainer there. And I'm not religious.

If they only realized just how outdated, sinister and inhumane their political ideology really is.

Hear, hear!!!
I might even write an addendum to it: Freemarket capitalism is the quick-fix instrument for fast economic growth and raising the standard of living for large cohorts of society, but to entrust the development of society to a system that's based on one of the 7 deadly sins, namely greed, and expect that the capitalist "movers and shakers" through mysterious ways would act with the common good in mind is really kind of naive. Alan Greenspan was really surprised when he realized.

AND: A free market means that production goes where they're willing to cut the most corners. To China, with a brown-coal fuelled industry, few environmental protection acts, little education and health benefits, slave wages in an industry that's almost feudal and the workers certainly not unionized. To an Indian garment industry using child-labor, to countries that chop down rainforest with no concern for tomorrow, and Africa is becoming our waste-dump for toxins and by-products from our chemical industry etc. etc.
The BIG loser is mother nature. I've yet to meet a freemarket capitalist who has adopted the "I'm-just-a-custodian-of-mother-nature-for-the-future-generations"-philosophy. If they do, it's because of a necessity to build a reputation for being an eco-friendly brand, and hence a profitable philosophy in the short term.
And the result is really dismal: Depleted fish-stocks, polluted oceans, global warming, reduced level of top-soil in the corn-chamber of USA, etc. etc.

Sure, capitalism is really, really great. Taking care of people and the nature we all depend upon is really stoopid. Right. I truly believe America has another think coming.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Then of course these conservatives, who despise having thier taxes go toward paying someone elses healthcare, have no problems when it is spent on bailing out the financial institutions at Wall Street or the Military-Industrial block. And many of them are bigots who even have the temerity to believe that they are being good Christians. What hypocrits! I've often wondered if they have ever asked themselves (why by self-critical right?) if Christ today would be for socialist programs or liberal capitalism? No brainer there. And I'm not religious.

I am afraid you are incorrect about the thoughts on bail outs - the majority conservatives have been opposed to the bail outs as corporate welfare.

I do have to ask if you have considered that the ultra left has bigots in their ranks, thinking that they are so much more advanced that the caveman thinking of the conservatives?

 

[fatandfast]

In simple social math if a single mom makes 30k a year,What % of her income shall be contributed to the federal tax base ? With whats left over what should be a reasonable amount to pay for health care for her and her child ? Should she maintain a savings account for life's unexpected ? College savings account(s) for furthering her education and her he child's long term plans? "This is what Capitalism looks like" approach is fine as long as it works. Doing everything on the free market is great when everybody is involved in the market.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

USA 28.3%

Canada 33.3%
Denmark 48.9
Germany 36.2%
France 43.6%
U.K. 36.6%
Netherlands 38.0%
Norway 43.4%

In addition to income taxes, do people pay Social Security tax, Medicare Tax, State Taxes, Sales Tax, Property tax, and all of the other taxes that is not included in the 28.3% indicated above in all of these other countries?

Also, I think there might be some other problems with your numbers since the United States does not have flat tax rate. Here are some numbers that I located:

Corporate / Individual / VAT
Argentina 35% / 9-35% / 21%
Australia 30% / 17-45% / 10%GST
Austria 25% / 21%-50% / 20%
Belgium 33.99% / 25-50% / 21%
Brazil 34% / 7.5-27.5% / 17-25%
Canada 19.5%(federal) / 15-29%(Federal)/ 5%(gst)
China 25% / 5-45% / 17%
Denmark 25% / 38-59% / 25%
Finland 26% / 7.0-30.5% / 22%
France 33.33% / 5.5-40% / 19.6%
Germany 30-33%(effective) / 14-45% 19%
Greece 25% / 0-40% / 19%
India 30-40% / 10-30% / 12.5%
Italy 31.4% / 23%-43% / 20%
Japan 30% / 5-50% / 5%(consump)
Netherlands20-25.5% / 0-52% / 19%
New Zealand 30% / 0-39% / 12.5%gst
Norway 28% / 28-49% / 25%
Russia 20% / 13% / 18%
Spain 30% / 24-43% / 16%
Sweden 26.3% / 0-57% / 25%
Taiwan 25% / 6-40% / 5%
U.K. 28% / 0-40% / 15%
U.S.A. 15-35% / 15-35% / -

I believe that tax rates are so complicated it is difficult to compare countries.

 

[Anonymous]

I understand that it depends - having some friends from England in the past, I did not hear a glowing report about that health care system. In fact, I have never heard that the European system has a higher quality of care (most of the people I have talked with rarely went to the doctor). I am aware that people from Europe often find their way to the United States for specialized treatment - or at least I have read about it a few times in the news.

Weird...we are listed WAY DOWN the world health care tables in terms of health care, longevity as well ...right below Costa Rica...a totally poor nation...and of course all the evil socialist european nations are far far above us...then again, this was from studies done by the super uber evil U.N.

 

[Anonymous]

sorry...here is the table...this is from the WHO:

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America

 

[CentralCaliBike]

In simple social math if a single mom makes 30k a year,What % of her income shall be contributed to the federal tax base ? With whats left over what should be a reasonable amount to pay for health care for her and her child ? Should she maintain a savings account for life's unexpected ? College savings account(s) for furthering her education and her he child's long term plans? "This is what Capitalism looks like" approach is fine as long as it works. Doing everything on the free market is great when everybody is involved in the market.

So, if everything is covered for her, why should she be working in the first place? This happens to be the attitude of a number of people today.

The reality is that we have finite resources, not everyone will be able to afford everything the want or need, this is not a perfect world and never will be.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Weird...we are listed WAY DOWN the world health care tables in terms of health care, longevity as well ...right below Costa Rica...a totally poor nation...and of course all the evil socialist european nations are far far above us...then again, this was from studies done by the super uber evil U.N.

Longevity

1# Canada: 80.22
2# Italy: 79.81
3# France: 79.73
4# Germany: 78.80
5# United Kingdom: 78.54
6# United States: 77.85
7# Mexico: 75.41
8# China: 72.58
9# Iraq: 69.08
10# Russia: 67.08

Looks like a variation of 2.37 years from the United States to Canada.

 

[titan_90]

I will tell you what - why don't you and all of the other progressives send all that extra money you are willing to pay in taxes to the IRS - tell them you would like it to go towards health care, social security, medicare, and every other entitlement of which you approve.

I would gladly pay more in taxes if everyone in this country had healthcare, if it meant that I could actually drive in a straight line down any road in the country instead of zig-zaging to avoid the craters in the road. If everyone had the ability to get a good education. And if it meant we weren't destroying the middle class with conservative business policy anymore. But you conservatives will make this country burn before you admit you are wrong.

 

[Bala Verde]

In addition to income taxes, do people pay Social Security tax, Medicare Tax, State Taxes, Sales Tax, Property tax, and all of the other taxes that is not included in the 28.3% indicated above in all of these other countries?

The OECD and the Heritage foundation use the same standard. Tax burden measured as % of GDP. Those were the figures listed in the OECD table and (re)confirmed by the Heritage Foundation. That would thus entail that all taxes are included in the figures.

Overall, the average tax burden in the 30 OECD countries, calculated as a proportion of gross domestic product (GDP) Source

If the taxes in the US were understated by international comparison, I assume the Heritage Foundation would have pointed that out only to conclude the US is far more burdened than OECD would pretend it to be.

On the USA, the Heritage Foundation uses the same figure:

In the most recent year, overall tax revenue as a percentage of GDP was 28.2 percent

I believe that tax rates are so complicated it is difficult to compare countries.

Apparently the OECD and the Heritage Foundation have found a way...

 

[CentralCaliBike]

I have to get ready for a ride - I will get back to you on this. Some of it is fairly interesting.

 

[fatandfast]

So, if everything is covered for her, why should she be working in the first place? This happens to be the attitude of a number of people today.

The reality is that we have finite resources, not everyone will be able to afford everything the want or need, this is not a perfect world and never will be.

I give. You win. Lets say she has a job and her child has passing grades in school. then can she have have health care? If I would have bumped her income up to 50k she still has no market option for savings,medical,dental and a 4 year school for herself and her child. I don't think many euros are going to chime in, but free college no matter how substandard you are going to say it is is better than our current system. We want the work force for the future but are caught up in a word game about who "deserves" what. Education and health of our citizens can't be a bad investment. All other 1st world countries are paying less and getting more.

 

[Anonymous]

I give. You win. Lets say she has a job and her child has passing grades in school. then can she have have health care? If I would have bumped her income up to 50k she still has no market option for savings,medical,dental and a 4 year school for herself and her child. I don't think many euros are going to chime in, but free college no matter how substandard you are going to say it is is better than our current system. We want the work force for the future but are caught up in a word game about who "deserves" what. Education and health of our citizens can't be a bad investment. All other 1st world countries are paying less and getting more.

you got this right...I lived in Belgie for a decade or so...and YES taxes were higher...but people actually got things for their taxes...lots of things...free college and university, daycare if you have a job, healthcare ect ect...here, we pay taxes, and pretty much get nada, nothing...we can't even fix our roads and bridges...there, you also see much less huge sweeps of differences between classes...there are poorer folks, and richer folks of course, but not like in america...there are no homeless...and anyone who wants to better themselves gets to go to school for free....so yeah, taxes are higher, but it is a much more just society and one wherein people have so much more control as to where they are...social mobility is not a problem there. (i.e. the old pull yourself up by the bootstraps american myth right? Now it is largely done thanks to these rupug crooks...)

 

[CentralCaliBike]

I give. You win. Lets say she has a job and her child has passing grades in school. then can she have have health care? If I would have bumped her income up to 50k she still has no market option for savings,medical,dental and a 4 year school for herself and her child. I don't think many euros are going to chime in, but free college no matter how substandard you are going to say it is is better than our current system. We want the work force for the future but are caught up in a word game about who "deserves" what. Education and health of our citizens can't be a bad investment. All other 1st world countries are paying less and getting more.

Running out the door now - but I figure I should point out that I grew up in a home without health insurance (ended up paying for a broken leg for a decade or so) so I know what it is like. My grandfather on my dad's side could not read but felt that education was important enough that he pushed his kids to college - my Dad has a BS in general mathematics (and spent his life building houses) my uncle is a doctor. I understand that life is both difficult and unfair, you make the best of what you have. When the government comes in to fix it for you it, generally is not going to leave you in a better place.

 

[hektoren]

I give. You win. Lets say she has a job and her child has passing grades in school. then can she have have health care? If I would have bumped her income up to 50k she still has no market option for savings,medical,dental and a 4 year school for herself and her child. I don't think many euros are going to chime in, but free college no matter how substandard you are going to say it is is better than our current system. We want the work force for the future but are caught up in a word game about who "deserves" what. Education and health of our citizens can't be a bad investment. All other 1st world countries are paying less and getting more.

In short, it's "give, according to ability, get, according to need" Vs. "each to his own".
When looking at a person who gets everything free, education, health care etc. etc. and therefore, according to myth, has no inclination to really work (and these people probably exist) please do not underestimate the fact that no man is an island. You'll seldom come across people who don't thrive on feeling useful and doing a good job, be it to family or society at large. Being a part of society instead of living on the outside looking in, is something most people desire. Not all, but most.

In my book any society should be judged by how it treats its weakest, the ***, the mentally ill, the handicapped etc. The Americans do really well here, when you consider the fact that a guy with a pronounced mental handicap even was elected president for two consecutive periods.