World Politics

[mcduff]

Was he wrong?

 

[Brullnux]

Le Pen and Putin are extremely close, much more so than Trump and Putin.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Was he wrong?

Was he proven right?

 

[Jagartrott]

Re:

Le Pen and Putin are extremely close, much more so than Trump and Putin.

I've said it before (here, I think), but the alt-left seems to be finding itself in bed with the extreme right quite often these days. Assad and Putin, for example, are both quite well-liked among right-extremists. Le Pen is just an example of that. Pause for thought?

 

[mcduff]

Re: Re:

Was he wrong?

Was he proven right?

The tone of your previous post suggested you were sceptical of his claim that the 'Russians did it'. If you don't think it was the Russians, who do you think did?

Not entirely unconnected is this:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy

...which has some rather alarming claims about how and why voters are manipulated by hi-tech companies. Its a fairly long read, buyt the bit about Brexit and Trump is chilling, and it could very well be that a Le Pen victory would sit well with Trump and his puppet-masters.

It might not be the Russians who are responsible for Macron's Zinoviev Letter...

 

[Dan2016]

@Rhub and @Echoes: Nice posts. I'm struggling to keep up with all of the political content here over the last couple of days. I'm definitely gonna have a look at Todd, thanks for the video link Echoes. I struggle to make sense of the EU to be honest. I struggle to make sense of any of it actually. Technocrats everywhere. The reference to Varoufakis' new book that Blackcat linked sounds interesting too in that regard, maybe put some meat on the bones of the machinations at play.

 

[Jagartrott]

Le Pen would be at 35% according first estimates. That would be quite bad for her and the FN. We might see some changes in the party now.

 

[mcduff]

65% of the electorate remembered what can happen if you vote in a fascist in a democratic election

 

[Brullnux]

The polls were wrong

Macron though must not consider it as his own mandate and celebrate it as such. It is a vote against Le Pen, not for him.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Congrats to Macron! Nice to see the new leader of a nation emerge that's more of a moderate. Rare these days.

 

[Irondan]

Congrats to Macron! Nice to see the new leader of a nation emerge that's more of a moderate. Rare these days.

Putin will be upset...

 

[mcduff]

As will IS sympathisers. A Le Pen victory was their wet dream.

 

[BullsFan22]

Le Pen was never going to win this, which is a pity, not because I wanted her to win, but because I wanted to see Macron get all 'spooled up,' as Semper says, and blame his loss on Putin and cyber attacks. Well, now he's going to talk to the man that he accused of hacking his campaign face to face. Let's see if Vlad the Putster will be able to keep a straight face. A few days ago it was Merkel that wasted precious airspace to visit Vlad in Moscow and tell the world that he was hacking German elections. Can't wait to see how Finch's trip to the Kremlin goes!

 

[Brullnux]

But you see, the Merkel claim had no logic behind it. Her and Schulz are very similar in terms of foreign policy afaik. This one had a bit more sense behind it, especially considerin gthye are pretty close.

 

[Echoes]

Before thinking of Putin being upset I'm thinking of all the factory workers about to lose their jobs in the next 5 years because more companies will be relocated overseas, all the French self-employed, especially farmers who will keep on committing suicide massively, all the small village inhabitants who will lose their mayors with Macron's new "inter-municipality" projects, thinking of the possible nuclear war with North Korea (French have already sent their helicopter carrier, the "Mistral", the same that destroyed Lybia).

I'm just wondering. Among all those tools that gathered together at the Louvre, how many demonstrated in 2014 against the Macron Law and how many will demonstrate against the next austerity plan ... Decerebrated people.




Qatar will keep on robbing the country and the EU will not change one bit. France have missed a chance. Hope might come from the Med or from the Czech Republic perhaps...

 

[BullsFan22]

Before thinking of Putin being upset I'm thinking of all the factory workers about to lose their jobs in the next 5 years because more companies will be relocated overseas, all the French self-employed, especially farmers who will keep on committing suicide massively, all the small village inhabitants who will lose their mayors with Macron's new "inter-municipality" projects, thinking of the possible nuclear war with North Korea (French have already sent their helicopter carrier, the "Mistral", the same that destroyed Lybia).

I'm just wondering. Among all those tools that gathered together at the Louvre, how many demonstrated in 2014 against the Macron Law and how many will demonstrate against the next austerity plan ... Decerebrated people.




Qatar will keep on robbing the country and the EU will not change one bit. France have missed a chance. Hope might come from the Med or from the Czech Republic perhaps...

Exactly. This isn't about Putin. It's about France. I will not speak what France needs to do, because that's not my country and I don't follow its politics to know as much as I do about other countries I have vested interests in, but Macron will not be good for France. A few nice gestures towards immigrants is great, but like a number of high profile European leaders, he is hiding behind this issue, thinking that the people will not notice the things HE is hiding. He might be more of a neoliberal than Clinton, and that's saying a lot. He says he is 'neither right or left.' He is a banker. What will he offer France? Economic mobility? Better trade deals? Less/more taxes? And what about non-economic issues? He sounds more EU than anyone else in Europe. Perhaps this is why he got the EU technocrats to get behind him. What about foreign policy? Looks more of the same: intervene anywhere and everywhere, and if you disagree with the US and the coalition forces, keep your mouth shut and do as you are told or be cast out and feel the wrath of the EU and the future election.

 

[SeriousSam]

The leading reason he got the EU "technocrats" behind him is that the other candidate was Le Pen.

And it's not just other European politicians who think this way. According to a poll, a plurality of voters who backed him (about 40%) did so because the other choice was Le Pen, not because they're so compelled by what he represents or by his policies.

 

[BullsFan22]

Melenchon:

Jean-Luc Melenchon, in a statement following the first results of the elections, said on Sunday that Macron is planning a war on the French social welfare system.

"The program of the new monarch-style president is known already. It is a war against the French social welfare system, and ecological irresponsibility,” he said.


I bolded that as I thought it was interesting choice of words!

 

[Brullnux]

Hillary Clinton:
Victory for Macron, for France, the EU, & the world.

Defeat to those interfering w/democracy. (But the media says I can't talk about that)

When will she understand no one cares about her opinion any more. At least romney shut up after he lost (until last summer).

Yeah this is gonna be an interesting few years for France and Macron. He has to excel or will be voted out bigly next election. I doubt he will do good for France, as he seems to be obsessed with only one side of French economics, as Larry Elliott pointed out. I think he'll start off with a bang and peter out over a year or two.

Who do you guys reckon was more impressive in styling themselves as an outsider, Macron or Trump? I think Macron, but not by that much.

 

[aphronesis]

Those last two sum it up.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Hillary Clinton:
Victory for Macron, for France, the EU, & the world.

Defeat to those interfering w/democracy. (But the media says I can't talk about that)

When will she understand no one cares about her opinion any more. At least romney shut up after he lost (until last summer).

Yeah this is gonna be an interesting few years for France and Macron. He has to excel or will be voted out bigly next election. I doubt he will do good for France, as he seems to be obsessed with only one side of French economics, as Larry Elliott pointed out. I think he'll start off with a bang and peter out over a year or two.

Who do you guys reckon was more impressive in styling themselves as an outsider, Macron or Trump? I think Macron, but not by that much.

That's the sexy thing to do nowadays, isn't it? Say you are an outsider to the disgruntled populace and you'll get decent amount of support right away.

It's hard to say which one did it better, perhaps Macron, but as some posters above said, it was more of a vote against Le Pen than a vote for him, which as you say, he better hope that he does something significant or he'll be run out, bigly.

 

[python]

Re:

The polls were wrong

. what you say may indeed pan out, but i'd not rush the conclusion BEFORE all votes counted.

i am watching france24 as i type, the latest ACTUAL RUNNING split after about 30% of votes counted is slightly more than 60% went to macron and 39+% to le pen. i dont consider a few percentage points either way signify all that much... the winning margin is clear. we now need to turn the page and try to understand/project the macron policies. i can't understand how anyone can claim anything definitive about the macron expected policies, when his political organization was not known to anyone just 12 months ago...

i can't see macron driving hard in any direction when his direct voter base is about 1/4 of the voting french.

i kinda noted what le pen said during the last debate (from memory and translated loosely) ...'you will take your ques from a woman in any case, myself if i win, or from merkel'.

the subservience to germany in the eu context is a political rhetoric, but that france under macron will continue to slide down in terms of its influence compared to germany is a good bet.

 

[Netserk]

Before thinking of Putin being upset I'm thinking of all the factory workers about to lose their jobs in the next 5 years because more companies will be relocated overseas, all the French self-employed, especially farmers who will keep on committing suicide massively, all the small village inhabitants who will lose their mayors with Macron's new "inter-municipality" projects, thinking of the possible nuclear war with North Korea (French have already sent their helicopter carrier, the "Mistral", the same that destroyed Lybia).

I'm just wondering. Among all those tools that gathered together at the Louvre, how many demonstrated in 2014 against the Macron Law and how many will demonstrate against the next austerity plan ... Decerebrated people.




Qatar will keep on robbing the country and the EU will not change one bit. France have missed a chance. Hope might come from the Med or from the Czech Republic perhaps...

Boohoo.

France has itself to thank for that (so yeah, the primary blame is on the French citizens), and the farmers (and factory workers) who will lose their job the coming years would very likely have done so as well if Le Pen won. The best they can hope for is a National Assembly that is functional and ready for proper reforms of the economy.

 

[Jagartrott]

Definite results:
- Macron 66%
- Le Pen 34%

Macron still has to win in the upcoming elections for parliament, with almost all new candidates. Otherwise, he'll be subject to party games by the others. Let's see how it turns out. I don't see Mélenchon's predictions as reality, as he stressed the importance of workers and environment throughout his campaign. He's tied to his promises, otherwise he and his movement will disappear (like the LibDems in the UK) and he knows that.

 

[Echoes]

Jean-Luc Melenchon, in a statement following the first results of the elections, said on Sunday that Macron is planning a war on the French social welfare system.

"The program of the new monarch-style president is known already. It is a war against the French social welfare system, and ecological irresponsibility,” he said.

I bolded that as I thought it was interesting choice of words!

Mélenchon claims that the constitution of the 5th French Republic (approved by 80% of the voters in 1958) gave too much power to the President and the executive power and advocates of a new parliamentary 6th republic, which means a party-controlled system comparable to all other member states of the EU.

Actually the premise is utterly wrong. The French President does not have too much power these days, all the centres of power have been transferred to European institutions (the EU Commission, the European Central Bank, the Court of Justice, ...) and NATO. His new republic wouldn't change anything at that. The institutions are not the main problem (though I'm a royalist, not a republican), the problem is that the people elected do not have the ball to recover the power that they've delegated to supranational powers since Maastricht, in violation of the Constitution and of the Human Right Charter.