World Politics

[RetroActive]

I would sign that.
But what is disturbing, is that only China and Russia are circled in as the evil ones.
If the first five wouldn´t be too greedy, there was no conflicts next to Russias borders, or in South America, or Asia, or Africa, or Middle America, or eastern europe...

China and Russia play footsie under the table with the others but when it comes time to get naked they get their own private room.

 

[Bavarianrider]

20 years after the fall of communism it's Russia that's the last country to defend western values. Who would have guessed that.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

the west has no winning military option, none, strategy-wise speaking, and even if there was one, you dont want to face off with today's russian army on its own turf. it is day and night compared to 2008.

You mean they got their act together and finally are in good shape again of their powerful weapons? Nice to hear. So all the Minuteman are pretty much useless... What a waste of money. Could have been invested on the inner cities of USA.

 

[RetroActive]

Yes and I'm convinced it is a product of their orthodox tradition, in terms of following a kultur of established hierarchies. It's not for nothing that Moscow was called the third Roma, after Constantinople, the seat of Byzantium, and that the supreme ruler within its oligarchic system was called, Tsar (Caesar). Even the Bolsheviks transformed the sacrality of orthodoxy, into the sanctification of power under Soviet-style communism.

We among the "democratic" states simply have a hard time coming to grips with those that simply prefer to be ruled by an aristocratic establishment, as if it were somehow out of the natural order (while throughout the history of civilization, the rule of the people was just that). Although the first signs of change among the so-called people of the Great Bear are seemingly beginning to appear.

Of course in Russia this gets blamed, in the reactionary sense, on an intrusive Western imperialism. Putin even said as much. Interesting to consider the different perspectives, under a scientific lense.

The emergence of the oligarchs under Yeltsin didn't help, rather like if the robber barons of earlier times in the USA tried to take over the political process too. It's messy business but the Russians could have done worse all things considered. Putin may not be ideal, the political situation may leave something to be desired but at least he's not crazy.

Patriot act, NDAA...etc., etc.

 

[rhubroma]

I would sign that.
But what is disturbing, is that only China and Russia are circled in as the evil ones.
If the first five wouldn´t be too greedy, there was no conflicts next to Russias borders, or in South America, or Asia, or Africa, or Middle America, or eastern europe...

Then chalk it all up to an eschatologically bound "democracy mission" and supporting the job creators. The truth is that most of the governments supported or framed, have been the most anti-democratic, while liberalism has caused delocalization and hence local unemployment on a vast scale.

For Russia and China its just easier, not being bound to such noble causes.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Oh why can't we all just be friends in this world
That way we could have a tour de World. Where the mountainstages were in Kashmir, Syria and the central African republic

 

[python]

You mean they got their act together and finally are in good shape again of their powerful weapons? Nice to hear. So all the Minuteman are pretty much useless... What a waste of money. Could have been invested on the inner cities of USA.

i am relying on a couple of open-source military reviews i read by the so called, think tanks.

the biggest change is that they increasingly rely on 'contraktniks', the professionals who voluntarily serve for a competitive pay. not sure of the exact numbers now, but the army is dominated by the professionals. second, is that the officers biggest problem - lack of comfortable family living -- has been solved like 80 -90%. third, there was an unprecedented replacement of the old soviet era equipment. also, take a look at the videos from crimea, each soldier is equipped just about as well as any nato soldier - with bp vests, radios, comfortable boots and uniforms...i dont think those were elite or commando troops.

 

[blutto]

not sure how serious/caustic you were, but if he presided TODAY, he'd bark just as loud as obama whilst quietly reaching out to a fellow intelligence pro.

the west has no winning military option, none, strategy-wise speaking, and even if there was one, you dont want to face off with today's russian army on its own turf. it is day and night compared to 2008.


sorry, did i confuse the bushes ?

...just thought that was quite a funny comment...maybe it was a you had to be there moment...

Cheers

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Anyone here read the deal EU proposed to Ukraine before all this fighting started? or a link to a summary of some sort? Im to lazy to find 1 myself, and i've been to bust to really get into this conflict, but it seems to become rather interesting very quickly.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Then chalk it all up to an eschatologically bound "democracy mission" and supporting the job creators. The truth is that most of the governments supported or framed, have been the most anti-democratic, while liberalism has caused delocalization and hence local unemployment on a vast scale.

For Russia and China its just easier, not being bound to such noble causes.

LOL. Job creators. That lie is told to us everytime they come up with a new massacre of our life standard. Now its the free trade contract between EU and USA. And traitor Merkel is advertising it everywhere.
I do not think Putin is any more noble than Obama and his mobsters in the background (namely Wall Street and Goldman Sachs). But we need a wall again against the ever growing neo-capitalism-octopus created by the worst misanthropist of the past century: Milton Friedman. I hope this phucker burns in hell, and all his descendants suffer the worst immaginable ways.
I know that´s subjective hateful words. But I really hate this guy and his descendants that literally spoiled every country on this world....

... We once had a beautiful country until the EU (spiked with Milton like monsters) and USA took away our social market economy.
And our brainwashed people re-elect the speaker (Merkel) of the evil empire every 4 years until everybody lost his job or got a lower paid one.

 

[Amsterhammer]

I have some difficulty articulating my position, because I'm not sure what that is exactly. I'm conflicted. I have no ties or connections of any kind to Ukraine, I'm not invested in any way. As a card-carrying tree-hugger, my greatest wish is for the minimum possible bloodshed. Whatever the outcome, it will not affect my life, or my 'security'.

I can't bring myself to share Foxxy's very stark and extreme view, though there is some truth underlying his strident rhetoric. I think that it is impossible for any of us to accurately determine just how much direct US involvement there was behind the Kiev protests and the subsequent (almost) bloodless revolution.

Again, we are faced by the question: when do 'we' decide that a democratically elected government, no matter how distasteful it may be, has somehow lost its legitimacy, and is therefore deserving of being ousted, by whatever means?

I think it's clear now that the initial reports we in the west were fed about the nature of the protestors in Kiev and other cities, were not entirely accurate, whether by design or by ignorance. The influence, and the numbers of, the ultra-nationalist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semitic elements among those protesting the Yanukovich regime were, it seems, very much underestimated. Ukrainian ultra-nationalists have a pretty unsavory history.

It's also impossible for us to judge how far Putin's claim that ultra-nationalist, fascist, elements have been threatening ethnic Russians both in the Crimea and in other parts of the country. This point forms the basis for his justification. The West, as always, has a twitchy sphincter when confronted by any exercise of Russian power within its own sphere of influence. Realpolitik is to accept that the Crimea is 'gone'.

Ukraine, and the West, will simply have to suck it up. The Budapest Memorandum notwithstanding, there will be no western military involvement of any kind, even though NATO will be obliged to talk tough. Nobody could be that crazy. That's how I see the short game, anyway. Putin's long term strategy, and his perceived goals for a 'resurgent' Russia, are a whole different crate of potentially very rotten fish (if you'll forgive the metaphor).

 

[python]

Anyone here read the deal EU proposed to Ukraine before all this fighting started? or a link to a summary of some sort? Im to lazy to find 1 myself, and i've been to bust to really get into this conflict, but it seems to become rather interesting very quickly.

i did read it. iirc, it was 1008 pages. 'the deal' as you called it is officially called the 'association agreement'. it is a highly legalistic document with specific prescriptions on how ukraine has to reorganize its economy and by which specific date. iirc, it dealt with something like 17 or 18 specific industries.

in summary, it is a road map and a to-do-list with completion times. the gist is to convert a potential future eu 'associated' member into the eu accepted standards. standards for environmental safety, food inducrty et etc.


the main reason yanokovich ditched it, according to him, was that such drastic structural changes in such a short time to still soviet-era economy would cause massive unemployment and social discontent.

he wanted a lot of cash to offset the losses he had to take for the restructuring years. he was offered 800 mil euro. a pittance and an insult given that the nation numbers 45 million.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

i am relying on a couple of open-source military reviews i read by the so called, think tanks.

the biggest change is that they increasingly rely on 'contraktniks', the professionals who voluntarily serve for a competitive pay. not sure of the exact numbers now, but the army is dominated by the professionals. second, is that the officers biggest problem - lack of comfortable family living -- has been solved like 80 -90%. third, there was an unprecedented replacement of the old soviet era equipment. also, take a look at the videos from crimea, each soldier is equipped just about as well as any nato soldier - with bp vests, radios, comfortable boots and uniforms...i dont think those were elite or commando troops.

Really amazing, given the fact that the Chicago Boys with Jelzin and his oligarchs as the executors, brought Russia down to their knees.
How did they manage to rise again from scorched earth?

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

It's amazing to see how people here fall for FoxxyBrown's conspiracy theories and seem to forget about an the illegitimate invasion by Russia.

Some also make it seem as if Ukraine is a country filled with fascists, while the Svoboda party got 10% of the votes in the last election. This is along the lines (and even lower) of what extreme right gets in the rest of Europe, like the Netherlands or Belgium.
Ok, there were some parts where it got 25%, but so did the neo-fascist party in Belgium in '04

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Really amazing, given the fact that the Chicago Boys with Jelzin and his oligarchs as the executors, brought Russia down to their knees.
How did they manage to rise again from scorched earth?

The russian military has been 1 of Putins main focuses on building up Russia again affter the fall of Soviet. Was it in 2010 (?) he launched his multi billion effort to rebuld it completely.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I can't bring myself to share Foxxy's very stark and extreme view, though there is some truth underlying his strident rhetoric.

You don´t have too.
AFAIR you was pretty hard lashing out against Thatcher after finally she got where she belongs too (hell).
As you say, in the core we are on the same page. Thats ok for me.

 

[rhubroma]

I have some difficulty articulating my position, because I'm not sure what that is exactly. I'm conflicted. I have no ties or connections of any kind to Ukraine, I'm not invested in any way. As a card-carrying tree-hugger, my greatest wish is for the minimum possible bloodshed. Whatever the outcome, it will not affect my life, or my 'security'.

I can't bring myself to share Foxxy's very stark and extreme view, though there is some truth underlying his strident rhetoric. I think that it is impossible for any of us to accurately determine just how much direct US involvement there was behind the Kiev protests and the subsequent (almost) bloodless revolution.

Again, we are faced by the question: when do 'we' decide that a democratically elected government, no matter how distasteful it may be, has somehow lost its legitimacy, and is therefore deserving of being ousted, by whatever means?

I think it's clear now that the initial reports we in the west were fed about the nature of the protestors in Kiev and other cities, were not entirely accurate, whether by design or by ignorance. The influence, and the numbers of, the ultra-nationalist, neo-Nazi, and anti-Semitic elements among those protesting the Yanukovich regime were, it seems, very much underestimated. Ukrainian ultra-nationalists have a pretty unsavory history.

It's also impossible for us to judge how far Putin's claim that ultra-nationalist, fascist, elements have been threatening ethnic Russians both in the Crimea and in other parts of the country. This point forms the basis for his justification. The West, as always, has a twitchy sphincter when confronted by any exercise of Russian power within its own sphere of influence. Realpolitik is to accept that the Crimea is 'gone'.

Ukraine, and the West, will simply have to suck it up. The Budapest Memorandum notwithstanding, there will be no western military involvement of any kind, even though NATO will be obliged to talk tough. Nobody could be that crazy. That's how I see the short game, anyway. Putin's long term strategy, and his perceived goals for a 'resurgent' Russia, are a whole different crate of potentially very rotten fish (if you'll forgive the metaphor).

I think we may have arrived at an epochal moment, in which an indomitable power meets an irresistible force. Si svolge ("It turns").

 

[jens_attacks]

And even those who can only offer insulting posts as counter "arguments" like "del1962" or "jens_attacks" one day will wake up when their beautiful life/job/small business is literally eradicated by neocon "reforms/laws" to the benefit of big business. That day will certainly come.

my friend, for that i have romanian government so i don't need yankees or eu to do that. it is already done
for me it's just a matter of choice. and between russia, nationalistic lunatics(i know about them too because as a teen i was part of them,not bandera but the iron guard,different language,same shiit), corrupt and bureaucratic EU hands in hands with USA mafioso, i will chose every time the latter. every single time. because just like i said, comparing with all of the other options it's the best one a sane person could choose.

i have friends who tell me funny stories about ukraine. kalashnikovs sold for prices of nothing. i think this country would be a lot better with all the corruption and all the justin bieber-kim kardashian the west can bring than with the "systematic discipline" russia can bring lol

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

i did read it. iirc, it was 1008 pages. 'the deal' as you called it is officially called the 'association agreement'. it is a highly legalistic document with specific prescriptions on how ukraine has to reorganize its economy and by which specific date. iirc, it dealt with something like 17 or 18 specific industries.

in summary, it is a road map and a to-do-list with completion times. the gist is to convert a potential future eu 'associated' member into the eu accepted standards. standards for environmental safety, food inducrty et etc.


the main reason yanokovich ditched it, according to him, was that such drastic structural changes in such a short time to still soviet-era economy would cause massive unemployment and social discontent.

he wanted a lot of cash to offset the losses he had to take for the restructuring years. he was offered 800 mil euro. a pittance and an insult given that the nation numbers 45 million.

You forgot the worst part. Their law has to be re-written so that foreigners can buy land.
Thats exit A for every deal the Chicago boys "offer" captured countries...

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

...

1.) Where is the conspiracy?
2.) Where is the theory?

It´s all in the open. You may read again...

 

[jens_attacks]

Oh why can't we all just be friends in this world
That way we could have a tour de World. Where the mountainstages were in Kashmir, Syria and the central African republic

sane mind spotted
why can't we all have a drink, enjoy a spliff and then dance? and i'm not even a hippie lol
pretty tragic situation for the average ukrainian who just wants to live his life in peace...

 

[jens_attacks]

I think we may have arrived at an epochal moment, in which an indomitable power meets an irresistible force. Si svolge ("It turns").

si svolge a sinistra. comincia il mortirolo

sorry just getting all excited when i read italian

how come we don't have users from crimeea on cyclingnews?

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

sane mind spotted
why can't we all have a drink, enjoy a spliff and then dance? and i'm not even a hippie lol
pretty tragic situation for the average ukrainian who just wants to live his life in peace...

Obama, Merkel, Putin and the rest should join me in riding up Ventoux this May, and when we reach the top we will smoke a box of Cubans I just got from a friend and enjoy the scenery while looking out over France. I bet I could make world peace in 1 day

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

1.) Where is the conspiracy?
2.) Where is the theory?

It´s all in the open. You may read again...

The conspiracy is that the Ukrainian revolution was all a scheme by the US to put a fascist in power.
The theory is in that it's not true.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

my friend, for that i have romanian government so i don't need yankees or eu to do that. it is already done
for me it's just a matter of choice. and between russia, nationalistic lunatics(i know about them too because as a teen i was part of them,not bandera but the iron guard,different language,same shiit), corrupt and bureaucratic EU hands in hands with USA mafioso, i will chose every time the latter. every single time. because just like i said, comparing with all of the other options it's the best one a sane person could choose.

i have friends who tell me funny stories about ukraine. kalashnikovs sold for prices of nothing. i think this country would be a lot better with all the corruption and all the justin bieber-kim kardashian the west can bring than with the "systematic discipline" russia can bring lol

Accepted.
But it will be on the back of us again. You know, germans pay for everything that others destroyed.
A much better way would be to leave the countries alone to built their way up*, or to the influence they come from. Ukraine is much closer to Russia than EU.
And to insure you; our freedom and standards are lowered inch by inch, year by year, until we all suffer in the same $hit and quagmire, and the upper 10.000 give high fives for their coups.

* It´s possible. Our fathers and mothers are the blue print. And now we get stolen their hard efforts from all sides.... And sorry, but the worst robbers of them all are the neocons. Kardashian or not.