World Politics

[python]

indeed one can easily find pix of the ukrainian deputies brawls way before the 'revolution'...

but a parliament legitimacy and the legitimacy of a parliament decision-making in the environment of physical intimidation are 2 different things...

you know, some deputies, even if their teeth were not blown and their noses not bleeding, may....just may abstain, reverse or, more frequently, stop attending the sessions after seeing what happened....

(in fact, the 'post-revolution' parliament had conducted most sessions in the barely adequate quorum)

in the video it was an extreme right deputy (one of the majority factions) attacking a communist (the only opposition still daring).

and speaking of the last elected ukrainian parliament legitimacy per se - the very one still sitting - it should not take much research to find out that most western observers called the parliamentary elections, to put it mildly, less legitimate than the elections of deposed president.

 

[blutto]

There's fights like that in Russian Parliament too. Not in US parliament.
Does that make the US one more legitimate?

The answer is: no, the video you posted is totally off topic, and has nothing to do with legitimacy of the 2013 Ukrainian parliament.

...please correct me if I'm wrong but we are now living in the year of our lord 2014 are we not?....and for your information since 2013 a glorious revolution has occurred in The Ukraine and things have changed dramatically in the parliament...so is it legitimate without an election given the new situation on the ground ...very good question?

Cheers

 

[blutto]

...speaking of kicking someone where it really hurts here is some news from the "financial pages"....

'Russia has just dropped another bombshell, announcing not only the de-coupling of its trade from the dollar, but also that its hydrocarbon trade will in the future be carried out in rubles and local currencies of its trading partners – no longer in dollars – see Voice of Russia

Russia’s trade in hydrocarbons amounts to about a trillion dollars per year. Other countries, especially the BRICS and BRCIS-associates (BRICSA) may soon follow suit and join forces with Russia, abandoning the ‘petro-dollar’ as trading unit for oil and gas. This could amount to tens of trillions in loss for demand of petro-dollars per year (US GDP about 17 trillion dollars – December 2013) – leaving an important dent in the US economy would be an understatement."

....gonna be interesting how this will affect the "markets" today....because with the US dollar now becoming much less of the preferred reserve currency, things as they say, just got real complicatedistical...

Cheers

 

[RetroActive]

...speaking of kicking someone where it really hurts here is some news from the "financial pages"....

'Russia has just dropped another bombshell, announcing not only the de-coupling of its trade from the dollar, but also that its hydrocarbon trade will in the future be carried out in rubles and local currencies of its trading partners – no longer in dollars – see Voice of Russia

Russia’s trade in hydrocarbons amounts to about a trillion dollars per year. Other countries, especially the BRICS and BRCIS-associates (BRICSA) may soon follow suit and join forces with Russia, abandoning the ‘petro-dollar’ as trading unit for oil and gas. This could amount to tens of trillions in loss for demand of petro-dollars per year (US GDP about 17 trillion dollars – December 2013) – leaving an important dent in the US economy would be an understatement."

....gonna be interesting how this will affect the "markets" today....because with the US dollar now becoming much less of the preferred reserve currency, things as they say, just got real complicatedistical...

Cheers

Yep, this petro dollar thingy is coming unglued. Are those drums I hear in the not so far off?

 

[Von Mises]

and speaking of the last elected ukrainian parliament legitimacy per se - the very one still sitting - it should not take much research to find out that most western observers called the parliamentary elections, to put it mildly, less legitimate than the elections of deposed president.

But you very conviently forget that most complaints (also from western obsevers) were talking that Now deposed president Yanukovitch´s administration is channeling state money into his own partys election campaign.

 

[python]

But you very conviently forget that most complaints (also from western obsevers) were talking that Now deposed president Yanukovitch´s administration is channeling state money into his own partys election campaign.

i am not and have not forgotten anything.

it was you who pedaled this nonsense that a brawl in the the parliament does not mean the parliament is illegitimate.

i showed with facts that the physical intimidation of the very few left disagreeable deputies does not promote the legitimate decision making in ukraine.

the rest of your post makes even less sense...the party of regions is in shambles. whoever did not sell out to the 'revolutionaries', stopped attending the sessions. the party of regions does not control any state money now. all power and whatever state funds left under the control of the putsch govt.

 

[blutto]

Yep, this petro dollar thingy is coming unglued. Are those drums I hear in the not so far off?

...nope...those are heads exploding all over the exceptional shiny city on the hill....tragic, simply tragic I tell you....humpty dumpty may not ever be put back together again....in fact if this goes into the free-fall that some have been predicting there may be nothing left but white foam and dust....

Cheers

 

[RetroActive]

...nope...those are heads exploding all over the exceptional shiny city on the hill....tragic, simply tragic I tell you....humpty dumpty may not ever be put back together again....in fact if this goes into the free-fall that some have been predicting there may be nothing left but white foam and dust....

Cheers

It's Ragnarök...Jörmungandr has taken flight.

 

[python]

according to one Georgian general, the maidan snipers were hired by the former president of georgia saakashvili. he said, they know everything about them including their names. supposedly, the statement was made on a georgian tv channel.

i tried to find anything in English, to no avail.

 

[Von Mises]

the rest of your post makes even less sense...the party of regions is in shambles. whoever did not sell out to the 'revolutionaries', stopped attending the sessions. the party of regions does not control any state money now. all power and whatever state funds left under the control of the putsch govt.

Nope, you implied that 2012 parliamentary elections were some how less legitimate than 2010 presidental elections. I pointed out that majority of complaints what were made against 2012 parliament elections concerned accusations that (now deposed) president was giving state money for his own party´s election campaign. So, if there were victims in 2012 parliament campaign, then victims were mostly people who are now in power in Kiev (former opposition, I mean).

Secondly, lets not forget that now prime minister Yatsenyuk got 371 votes from 450 parliament seats. Only Communist Party (32 votes) was clearly against. So, huge majority supported him. Other cabinet members also got clear majority. By this I do not want to justify hassling (if it exists) of Communist Party, but at the end they are small minority party (without po0litical future anyway) and acting goverment got very strong support.

 

[Von Mises]

according to one Georgian general, the maidan snipers were hired by the former president of georgia saakashvili. he said, they know everything about them including their names. supposedly, the statement was made on a georgian tv channel.

i tried to find anything in English, to no avail.

There is a huge video, photo and eywitness evidence what shows that police was using all kind of weapons from AK-s to sniper rifles. From all these videoa nd photo evidence we can see only very few protesters with real guns (couple of shotguns and couple of pistols).

 

[hrotha]

There is a huge video, photo and eywitness evidence what shows that police was using all kind of weapons from AK-s to sniper rifles. From all these videoa nd photo evidence we can see only very few protesters with real guns (couple of shotguns and couple of pistols).

Not that I believe the snipers were Georgian agents, but of course the police snipers were armed with their own rifles. That doesn't necessarily mean they used them. It's standard procedure to deploy snipers just in case, and in practice mostly for their scopes. In the leaked conversation among a sniper squad, they talk about taking up different positions to have a better field of vision and cover the whole street coming from the square, but not about shooting. In fact, the snipers from that squad apparently had no idea who was shooting, and from the recording it would seem they had no instructions or intention to shoot.

 

[python]

Bulgaria torn between old friends and new partners over Crimea

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014...390AW20140410?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews

i did not realize that such strong pro-russian sentiment could survive after more than 2 decades when an entirely new generation of bulgarians was born in a nato-member country....

"Bulgaria should veto any, I repeat, any sanctions on Russia," said Emil Vangelov, a retired teacher in Sofia. "On the contrary, we should expand our economic, political and cultural relations with Moscow. Can't you see that Bulgaria is disappearing after all the lies from the U.S. and EU?"

given the bulgarian sentiment, a country removed from moscow by good distance and the new history, i do not understand why so many reasonable people are oblivious to the fact that millions of ukrainians on the border with rwussia could feel similarly and may even have a point in speaking for their cultural and historical rights

 

[blutto]

....there was also a "huge" video shown here on the CBC news of the hotel based sniper nest used by the glorious revolutionaries....and the odd thing about the sniper team that was dispatched by the then government is that there is apparently no reported shootings of the most militant part of the demonstrators ( the folks throwing the Molotov cocktails and such )....which seems to indicate that either the government sniper team were really bad shots or they weren't doing much shooting if at all or their shooting was aimed primarily at the other snipers ( which would never be reported by the MSM anyway because that would be proof that the glorious revolution side were the original snipers...)...

...bottom line...this situation remains "complex" and not easily reduced to a white hats black hats narrative....but if recent history is any indicator the white hats here are not necessarily the ones celebrated by the Western press...

Cheers

 

[Von Mises]

Not that I believe the snipers were Georgian agents, but of course the police snipers were armed with their own rifles. That doesn't necessarily mean they used them. It's standard procedure to deploy snipers just in case, and in practice mostly for their scopes. In the leaked conversation among a sniper squad, they talk about taking up different positions to have a better field of vision and cover the whole street coming from the square, but not about shooting. In fact, the snipers from that squad apparently had no idea who was shooting, and from the recording it would seem they had no instructions or intention to shoot.

I think I know what leaked conversation you mean, but I cannot find it now.
But if I remember correctly they (sniper team) were using phrases "rabotat" "rabotali", "ja rabotaju", what literally means "to work", "worked", "I work" etc. But this is professional jargon - work=shoot.

I also remeber one part of the conversation, where snipers are discussing "we are not working on him", "someone worked on him" and asking "is there somebody else involved" after which their commander confirms and says that he is in connection with these others. So, there was probably more than one sniper group, maybe from another unit, maybe from different branch. Note, that "police" in this context is umbrella term. In reality there were different units: ordinary police, riot police, police special forces (Berkut), secret service (SBU) special forces.

+ there are videos what show "police" shooting, like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJj-zZsImio

Anyway, if you know geography of Kiev and chronology of events, the talk about protester snipers does not make any sense.

 

[Von Mises]

given the bulgarian sentiment, a country removed from moscow by good distance and the new history, i do not understand why so many reasonable people are oblivious to the fact that millions of ukrainians on the border with rwussia could feel similarly and may even have a point in speaking for their cultural and historical rights

Who are oblivious? Of course there are lot of people in Ukraine (especially in Eastern -Ukraine) who are Russian friendly. many of them are russians themselves. Even lot of people on Maidan were saying that they are not anti-Russia on anti-russians, but anti-Kreml, anti-Putin. Ther´s a distinction.

Btw public polls In Ukraine over the years have asked questions "should Ukraine and Russia be one country". In Crimea, what is most pro-Russia part of Ukraine, about 20-40% have answered "yes". Indeed, lot of people, though 20-40% is clearly different from 97%, what they achived during so-called referendum.

Anyway, being pro-Russia is one thing and attcking independent country ios another thinks. Many Bulgarians may have Russian friendly sentiment, but does it mean that Russia has the right to attck Bulgaria and annex part of Bulgaria? I do not think so.

 

[Von Mises]

....there was also a "huge" video shown here on the CBC news of the hotel based sniper nest used by the glorious revolutionaries....and the odd thing about the sniper team that was dispatched by the then government is that there is apparently no reported shootings of the most militant part of the demonstrators ( the folks throwing the Molotov cocktails and such )....which seems to indicate that either the government sniper team were really bad shots or they weren't doing much shooting if at all or their shooting was aimed primarily at the other snipers ( which would never be reported by the MSM anyway because that would be proof that the glorious revolution side were the original snipers...)...

...bottom line...this situation remains "complex" and not easily reduced to a white hats black hats narrative....but if recent history is any indicator the white hats here are not necessarily the ones celebrated by the Western press...

Cheers

Looney talk.

 

[python]

Who are oblivious?

frankly, you sound like one of them...accusing people of conveniently forgetting while yourself being confused about the present and the past of the ukrainian parliament...quoting a post about snipers and only snipers yet responding with a disconnected blabber about street shooting no one mentioned.


i'll give you a credit for being civil, but you are useless in a serious discussion. at least in my view

 

[RetroActive]

Grandpa Paul recaps:

Is the US or the World Coming to an End?
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/04/09/us-world-coming-end-paul-craig-roberts/

 

[blutto]

Who are oblivious? Of course there are lot of people in Ukraine (especially in Eastern -Ukraine) who are Russian friendly. many of them are russians themselves. Even lot of people on Maidan were saying that they are not anti-Russia on anti-russians, but anti-Kreml, anti-Putin. Ther´s a distinction.

...which is why your "legitimate" government, you know the one that was installed by the glorious revolution, immediately upon taking power, outlawed the use of Russian?.....

Cheers

 

[blutto]

I think I know what leaked conversation you mean, but I cannot find it now.
But if I remember correctly they (sniper team) were using phrases "rabotat" "rabotali", "ja rabotaju", what literally means "to work", "worked", "I work" etc. But this is professional jargon - work=shoot.

Anyway, if you know geography of Kiev and chronology of events, the talk about protester snipers does not make any sense.

...a couple of things ....the translation of work is closer to robota, like robot...

...and having stayed in the hotel the glorious revolution was operating in that talk makes all kinds of sense because that hotel overlooks Maiden ( something that was shown with a window shot in the CBC coverage of the "defensive" snipers as they called themselves )....you could not get a better sniper location if you tried....find below a link to a photo of Maiden taken from the occupied hotel and from below near the exact square elevation...

http://img.mandria.ua/image/a1/ec/769.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...4CWa7_y1lqYDVDuiwM_54cCA4H85SLPRu8t0Kl-WtaiUQ

....so tell me, when you are down a quart does a brown line appear on your forehead?...

Cheers

 

[python]

if the clocks are working right, according to the ukrainian putsch govt's own ultimatum, the time left to a full-fledged armed action is 2-3 hours.

to remind, it was promised by the head of security against those who took over the local govt buildings in the east.

i cant tell with any accuracy - because the sources disagree - why exactly the negotiations failed...some say the protesters only condition - to provide in writing a commitment to conducting a referendum on the region's status - is not acceptable to the putschists...


whatever supposed to happen will happen.

however, if the putsch govt will be stupid enough to start shooting and killing, i predict that the kiev riots with all their fire works and over 100 dead will be insignificant compared to a full fledged civil war likely to follow...

in stead, if the putschists have any brains left, they should continue 'negotiating' until the 'isolated several dozen separatists' (according to them)
fall apart from lack of sleep. indeed, a no brainer tactic if the 'separatist' are as few as the govt said...

 

[Von Mises]

...which is why your "legitimate" government, you know the one that was installed by the glorious revolution, immediately upon taking power, outlawed the use of Russian?.....

Cheers

What a nonsense.
By Ukrainian constitution, there is one official state language - ukranian. Article 10 "The state language of Ukraine is the Ukrainian language."
But also in same Article 10 " In Ukraine, the free development, use and protection of Russian, and other languages of national minorities of Ukraine, is guaranteed."

In 2012 law was passed about regional languages, by this law russian language indeed got regional language status in some regions (though ukrainian was of course still official state language in these regions). In 2014 this law was repelled, but acting president vetoed it.

So, thats the situation. Official law is ukrainian. Russian is protected by constitution. Nobody has changed constitution. Political dispute goes only over this regional language law.

To say that use of Russian was outlawed is also absurd considering that Russian language is native language for many politician currently in power. For instance several cabinet members are native russian speakers.

So, get your facts right before you post BS.

 

[Von Mises]

...a couple of things ....the translation of work is closer to robota, like robot...
Cheers

They speaking russian and in russian "work" is "rabota", "to work" is "rabotat".

Btw, though I am not fluent in russian, I understand and speak it pretty well.

Once again, get your facts right, before you post BS.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Von Mises]

Another example of Russian propaganda.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_hwHiLiOvY

One and the same person is used in different Russian TV stations in different roles. In first station he is presneted as part of right-wing Maidan fighter (trained in Germany, as he claims). In another TV station he is already separatist and victim of right-wing violence.