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ravens

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buckwheat said:
Well, you got your shot in.

Doesn't take much to disarm me.

The riding does make one's mind right. I guess we can agree on that.

The safety thing may be out of my hands. Have you ever ridden a bike in South Florida?

Prayers are welcomed though.

I went down to Naples (where my parents live) to see if I wanted to move there about 18 years ago. After about 3 days I went back to the northeast where I used to live as fast as I could. Fla is like Colorado in this respect: If you move there, make your $$ elsewhere first cause the chances of making it there are remote.

No, didn't ride at that time, but the mind numbing flat topography is maddening to this mountain lover.
 

buckwheat

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Scott SoCal said:
Perhaps those living paycheck to paycheck may want to consider creating additional value

I take it you're some type of entrepreneur. Great! If you have the talent and initiative to do that, and you are providing some product or service of value, you should be commended and reap some rewards. Not everyone has that ability and that's why they go to work for someone else.

It seems that a lot of people with abilities don't recognize they have certain abilities, and then blame those who can't measure up. If everyone had the same competitiveness and drive as you, or if they had even more of those components, you might not be as successful as you are.

The scenario you describe is akin to being a freak like LeMond, and then blaming the others for not being able to keep up. If everyone had LeMond's abilities he wouldn't be so special, would he?


Scott SoCal said:
for themselves or their ideas to prospective employers (or take an entrepreneurial risk themselves). I know that's extremely difficult for you to hear.

It's not difficult to hear at all. I just think your suggestions point out how out of touch you are.

First of all, we can't all be chiefs. Some people have to do the actual work. Stuff like pick up garbage. Build buildings, manufacture cars, stuff like that.

The problem is that the Republicans continually attack unions, eliminate civil service jobs and always strive to drive wages downward or hold the line on wages no matter what. They are completely against stuff like union garbagemen in NYC, where you can make a living picking up trash. They think you can privatize everything. They want to have unrealistic, unsustainable increases in efficiency which put people out of work. The problem is, you can't privatize clean water, sanitation, sewage treatment, infrastructure, roads, postal service, without seeing huge increases in price and decreases in quality.

I love how stock prices always go up when a company announces layoffs. Microsoft makes 4Billion in a quarter and then lays off 4,000 employees!
 
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Anonymous

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buckwheat said:
I take it you're some type of entrepreneur. Great! If you have the talent and initiative to do that, and you are providing some product or service of value, you should be commended and reap some rewards. Not everyone has that ability and that's why they go to work for someone else.

It seems that a lot of people with abilities don't recognize they have certain abilities, and then blame those who can't measure up. If everyone had the same competitiveness and drive as you, or if they had even more of those components, you might not be as successful as you are.

The scenario you describe is akin to being a freak like LeMond, and then blaming the others for not being able to keep up. If everyone had LeMond's abilities he wouldn't be so special, would he?




It's not difficult to hear at all. I just think your suggestions point out how out of touch you are.

First of all, we can't all be chiefs. Some people have to do the actual work. Stuff like pick up garbage. Build buildings, manufacture cars, stuff like that.

The problem is that the Republicans continually attack unions, eliminate civil service jobs and always strive to drive wages downward or hold the line on wages no matter what. They are completely against stuff like union garbagemen in NYC, where you can make a living picking up trash. They think you can privatize everything. They want to have unrealistic, unsustainable increases in efficiency which put people out of work. The problem is, you can't privatize clean water, sanitation, sewage treatment, infrastructure, roads, postal service, without seeing huge increases in price and decreases in quality.

I love how stock prices always go up when a company announces layoffs. Microsoft makes 4Billion in a quarter and then lays off 4,000 employees!




Why do people get an education? Why do people go to college, trade school or learn any other vocation?

You act as if someone just woke up one day with whatever skills they have and that's it. What if (in your example) LeMond just quit the first time he got dropped on a climb in a race? If he had your attitude he'd of only ever been somebody's domestique. How good would LeMond have been if all he did was complain that someone had an easier path to the pro peloton than he (being an American and all)?

Whatever happened to good decision making? If I go through my life f'ing up at opportunity why on earth do I have a right to demand something from you? I'm not saying anyone should begrudge anyone for anything. I'd like to sign a contract to make a movie for 10 or 20 million. Or be able to hit a baseball 450 feet consistantly and make millions per year. I'd like to grow my business at a faster rate than I am presently. So guess what? Instead of complaining I am actually learning how to run my business more efficiently and market my business more effectively. I hope it works for me, but it might not.

My guess is sanitation workers bust their butts. I damn sure don't look down my nose at them because they have an important job doing something I've chosen not to do. Those guys may not want the headaches of running a business either. You say that some people have to do the actual work, as if someone like me does not work. This makes me smile at you ignorance because I AM NEVER NOT WORKING. Stressing, thinking, calculating, working, solving, paying and collecting then doing it all over again.

You say repubs attack unions. Fair enough. I'm not a big union guy, but I hardly think you can say that unions are not at least partly to blame for the manufacturing situation in this country. Like it or not this is a global economy. If your neighbor can get a flat screen TV made in China for 60% of what he can pay for an American brand take a wild guess at what's gonna happen?

You say we want to eliminate civil service jobs. Yes. The govt needs only as much man-power as it takes to run the govt efficiently. That's it. At a time when this nation is failing economically would you care to explain why it is the ONLY job growth sector is civil service? The State of California received some billions of dollars from the Federal 'stimulus' plan. What did they do? Breathed a sigh of relief because thjey didn't have to lay-off any (or very many) civil servants. That's great, but guess what's gonna happen this year now that there is no 'stimulus' money? They will actually have to make a tough decision or two because they do not have enough money for the programs and the people. We in the private sector have been making these tough decisions for nearly 3 years already.

Stock prices can go up when jobs are shed when the prevailing opinion is the company (Microsoft in your example) has too much of their resources allocated to fixed overhead and not enough to R&D for example. Could be one of hundreds of different reasons.

You say I'm out of touch. Maybe I am, but I submit to you that my company just like millions of other small companies are probably the most 'in-touch' with what's wrong, with what needs to be fixed (pressure relief) and what to do on a go-forward basis because the new jobs will be created right here.
 
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Scott SoCal said:
"In their responses to the financial crisis and recession, many countries have adopted policies that limit economic freedom. The negative effect of these policies on future growth rates is predictable and certain, and it is already beginning to be manifest in the data and in countries’ Index of Economic Freedom scores." -- Sowell

The magnitude of the crisis was different from country to country. The countries that were more affected enacted more drastic legislation. All Sowell is actually pointing out is that countries more severely affected had lower growth. Obvious huh? But he is rewording this in a dishonest way to support his agenda, of "economic freedom".

Speaking of "economic freedom", you are aware that Suharto had to kill more than a million Indonesians to maintain "economic freedom"? Malaysia may have had less "economic freedom" but it is now a far more wealthy country than Indonesia. Govt oversight and welfare policies were far more successful.

Turns out that most people prefer real freedom to "economic freedom" too. Like in Oregon, they just passed higher taxes on the wealthy and corporations so they can maintain public services. Good on them.

I don't know why you're a fan of Sowell, he's just another idiot ideologue. Prior to his current phase of being a right-wing fundie, he was a Marxist. He loves ideology and he's not exactly grounded in reality. Surely you must have noticed this?

As Alpe d'Huez pointed out, Schiff is an example of an actual intelligent bloke that hails from the Austrian School of Economics. The power of science is its ability to predict. Economics is the science of who gets what. :)
A good economist needs to be able to predict too. Dean Baker predicted the housing bubble and subsequent crisis (and bailout, ...) in 2003 . Schiff predicted the housing crisis. Sowell was (and still is) just a puppet for the powerful.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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rhubroma said:
Bravo. A couple of further observations....
Glad to find you agreed with much of my post. The one area that draws a red flag to me though is in that I think it's a mistake - perhaps it's just in the wording - when so called "liberals" tend to clump all businesses together when criticizing the pseudo-capitalist system we have. My complaint isn't that businesses (or the super wealthy) should be punished, pay more taxes, etc. per se, as it is that the system we have is now so corrupt, it allows for predatory practices from those who have the means to exploit others immorally, even what should be illegally, to do so.

Hence, I can listen to someone like Dennis Kucinich talk, and he says a few things I fully agree with, but he frequently fails to delineate whatever benefits he perceives from regulation to stop predators and crooks in a way that benefits and allows honest practice from what amounts to the majority of businessmen, and that for the government to stop this through laws and prosecution is actually beneficial for the economy. Instead, nearly everyone on the so called "left" clumps nearly all businesses together, as if the Bernie Madoff's represent 90% of what's out there, when it's far less than 10% - however, the few small percentage that are thugs are enough to spoil the entire soup.

Seems like I'm rambling here, sorry if none of that makes much sense.

Glad some of you guys have looked into Peter Schiff. I have in-laws in Connecticut and am doing all I can to help encourage all of them to vote for him, presuming he does make a full run at the Senate (looks like it right now). Unfortunately he may be too much of an outsider, and isn't getting much of any support from his own party even.
 

buckwheat

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Scott SoCal said:
Why do people get an education? Why do people go to college, trade school or learn any other vocation?

Lots of reasons. Some want to learn something. Some want to make more money? What's your point.

Scott SoCal said:
You act as if someone just woke up one day with whatever skills they have and that's it.

I act? You completely missed my point. People do have varying degrees of ability. You want to both win the race, and blame those who lose the race.


Scott SoCal said:
What if (in your example) LeMond just quit the first time he got dropped on a climb in a race? If he had your attitude he'd of only ever been somebody's domestique. How good would LeMond have been if all he did was complain that someone had an easier path to the pro peloton than he (being an American and all)?

Good Lord! LeMond was a prodigy. Sure he had ups and downs but,..... and you completely missed my point again. You can't take pride in some quality you have and then go on to demolish someone who doesn't have that quality, which is what you'd do. You win the race and you'd criticise the people you beat as losers. Wake up, your position as a winner, is relative to someone else's position further down the ladder. You oppose a social safety net as far as I can tell so someone working 40 hours a week with no benefits seems to be fine as far as you're concerned.


Scott SoCal said:
Whatever happened to good decision making?

Are you intentionally obtuse?

Scott SoCal said:
If I go through my life f'ing up at opportunity why on earth do I have a right to demand something from you?

Strawman alert. Just because a guy works in McDonalds 40 hours a week, or a supermarket, or whatever kind of low wage job, does that mean he's effing up every opportunity and deserves no health care? And you're damned right, I'm going to tax you so you have to pay for it.


Scott SoCal said:
I'm not saying anyone should begrudge anyone for anything. I'd like to sign a contract to make a movie for 10 or 20 million. Or be able to hit a baseball 450 feet consistantly and make millions per year. I'd like to grow my business at a faster rate than I am presently.

More strawmen.


Scott SoCal said:
So guess what? Instead of complaining I am actually learning how to run my business more efficiently and market my business more effectively.

Really? By making 400 posts in the Obama thread, arguing that some underpaid person who's picking up your garbage or making your bed in a hotel shouldn't receive health benefits which are available to all other such people in every civilized country except the U.S.A.?

Scott SoCal said:
I hope it works for me, but it might not.?

It would probably be more assured to work if you'd stop wasting your time, arguing nonsense and being Mr. Potter.

Scott SoCal said:
My guess is sanitation workers bust their butts. I damn sure don't look down my nose at them because they have an important job doing something I've chosen not to do..

But if were up to you, you'd be paying them minimum wage or less, and certainly busting their union if you could.

Scott SoCal said:
Those guys may not want the headaches of running a business either. You say that some people have to do the actual work, as if someone like me does not work.

Nice assumption and phony outrage. That's not what I said or meant at all. Go back and read what I wrote as I think I was quite complimentary toward your initiative, talent, and drive, if in fact you do operate a successful business. What I was trying to say is that if you have people working for you I'm sure you want to hang onto them, rather than have them pursue their own entreprenurial dreams at the expense of your business.

Scott SoCal said:
This makes me smile at you ignorance because I AM NEVER NOT WORKING. Stressing, thinking, calculating, working, solving, paying and collecting then doing it all over again.

Damn you're defensive.

Scott SoCal said:
You say repubs attack unions. Fair enough. I'm not a big union guy, but I hardly think you can say that unions are not at least partly to blame for the manufacturing situation in this country. Like it or not this is a global economy. If your neighbor can get a flat screen TV made in China for 60% of what he can pay for an American brand take a wild guess at what's gonna happen?.

The people in a union shop want to live at least some semblance of the lifestyle that most Americans lead. The best Union organizer has been proven to be MANAGEMENT. In 1992 Ross Perot predicted what would happen if Nafta and these other free trade agreements passed and he was right. He said there would be a giant sucking sound of jobs being flushed down south.

Scott SoCal said:
You say we want to eliminate civil service jobs. Yes. The govt needs only as much man-power as it takes to run the govt efficiently. That's it. ?

And you're an expert on the manpower needs of functions like homeland security? Which is not a civil service job btw, because of Republican scumbags like chickenhawk Saxby Chambliss who put triple amputee Vietnam Vet, Max Cleland on a poster with Osama bin Laden saying he was helping the terrorists by voting against Homeland Security because the Repugs didn't want it to be a civil service job.

You are the guys who are living in fear because of the underwear bomber and trying to scare the bejesus out of Americans to score political points.

Scott SoCal said:
At a time when this nation is failing economically

Why is the country failing economically?

Could it be because of Republican policies like 2 giant tax cuts to the rich and starting preemptive wars based on lies? Or the Republican strategy to make the Regulatory agencies toothless and trying to eliminate them.


Scott SoCal said:
would you care to explain why it is the ONLY job growth sector is civil service? The State of California received some billions of dollars from the Federal 'stimulus' plan. What did they do? Breathed a sigh of relief because thjey didn't have to lay-off any (or very many) civil servants. That's great, but guess what's gonna happen this year now that there is no 'stimulus' money?

And things would have been worse for the economy as a whole if that stimulus wasn't provided. Those people who are civil servants aren't rich. They spend all the money they make basically. They might even use your business or buy a washing machine, or a car. Jeez wake up. The stimulus should have been much bigger but you are afraid of ticking off the rich. The money will always get back to them because the poor have to spend all their money just to survive. They put it right back into the economy.


Scott SoCal said:
They will actually have to make a tough decision or two because they do not have enough money for the programs and the people. We in the private sector have been making these tough decisions for nearly 3 years already.

You don't think it's a tough decision to go into massive debt to pump up an economy fcuked over by the people you support? The government have responsibility, something you in the private sector have a lot less of. If people are starving on the street, some scumbag like Bill Gates isn't going to get the blame.


Scott SoCal said:
Stock prices can go up when jobs are shed.

I love this, "jobs are shed" euphemistic bs. That's people we're talking about with families.

Scott SoCal said:
when the prevailing opinion is the company (Microsoft in your example) has too much of their resources allocated to fixed overhead and not enough to R&D for example. Could be one of hundreds of different reasons.

They're hugely profitable and they could have carried those people or redeployed them. But every opportunity these guys have to cut jobs, and we're not talking fat here, they're cutting into muscle and bone, they take it. Microsoft and Ballmer and Gates Don't have the same responsibility of a government and therefore can just put people on the street.

Scott SoCal said:
You say I'm out of touch. Maybe I am, but I submit to you that my company just like millions of other small companies are probably the most 'in-touch' with what's wrong, with what needs to be fixed (pressure relief) and what to do on a go-forward basis because the new jobs will be created right here.

I have no idea what products you produce. But government performs many necessary functions small businesses are unable to perform. All you people want to do is destroy the government which is the ONLY entity which can safeguard our social structure, maintain our infrastructure, and regulate our society.

If Republicans hadn't been busy gutting our government and tearing down our regulatory systems we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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Shift in subject a little here. Anyone catch Obama's talk today about building a new nuclear power plant in Georgia? It's only a drop in the bucket of what could really be used, and he wants much more appropriations for them, but at least it's a start. Here's a link.

Thoughts anyone?
 

buckwheat

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Alpe d'Huez said:
Shift in subject a little here. Anyone catch Obama's talk today about building a new nuclear power plant in Georgia? It's only a drop in the bucket of what could really be used, and he wants much more appropriations for them, but at least it's a start. Here's a link.

Thoughts anyone?

Seems to make sense.

Hopefully it won't become a political football.
 
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Anonymous

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buckwheat said:
Lots of reasons. Some want to learn something. Some want to make more money? What's your point.



I act? You completely missed my point. People do have varying degrees of ability. You want to both win the race, and blame those who lose the race.




Good Lord! LeMond was a prodigy. Sure he had ups and downs but,..... and you completely missed my point again. You can't take pride in some quality you have and then go on to demolish someone who doesn't have that quality, which is what you'd do. You win the race and you'd criticise the people you beat as losers. Wake up, your position as a winner, is relative to someone else's position further down the ladder. You oppose a social safety net as far as I can tell so someone working 40 hours a week with no benefits seems to be fine as far as you're concerned.




Are you intentionally obtuse?



Strawman alert. Just because a guy works in McDonalds 40 hours a week, or a supermarket, or whatever kind of low wage job, does that mean he's effing up every opportunity and deserves no health care? And you're damned right, I'm going to tax you so you have to pay for it.




More strawmen.




Really? By making 400 posts in the Obama thread, arguing that some underpaid person who's picking up your garbage or making your bed in a hotel shouldn't receive health benefits which are available to all other such people in every civilized country except the U.S.A.?



It would probably be more assured to work if you'd stop wasting your time, arguing nonsense and being Mr. Potter.



But if were up to you, you'd be paying them minimum wage or less, and certainly busting their union if you could.



Nice assumption and phony outrage. That's not what I said or meant at all. Go back and read what I wrote as I think I was quite complimentary toward your initiative, talent, and drive, if in fact you do operate a successful business. What I was trying to say is that if you have people working for you I'm sure you want to hang onto them, rather than have them pursue their own entreprenurial dreams at the expense of your business.



Damn you're defensive.



The people in a union shop want to live at least some semblance of the lifestyle that most Americans lead. The best Union organizer has been proven to be MANAGEMENT. In 1992 Ross Perot predicted what would happen if Nafta and these other free trade agreements passed and he was right. He said there would be a giant sucking sound of jobs being flushed down south.



And you're an expert on the manpower needs of functions like homeland security? Which is not a civil service job btw, because of Republican scumbags like chickenhawk Saxby Chambliss who put triple amputee Vietnam Vet, Max Cleland on a poster with Osama bin Laden saying he was helping the terrorists by voting against Homeland Security because the Repugs didn't want it to be a civil service job.

You are the guys who are living in fear because of the underwear bomber and trying to scare the bejesus out of Americans to score political points.



Why is the country failing economically?

Could it be because of Republican policies like 2 giant tax cuts to the rich and starting preemptive wars based on lies? Or the Republican strategy to make the Regulatory agencies toothless and trying to eliminate them.




And things would have been worse for the economy as a whole if that stimulus wasn't provided. Those people who are civil servants aren't rich. They spend all the money they make basically. They might even use your business or buy a washing machine, or a car. Jeez wake up. The stimulus should have been much bigger but you are afraid of ticking off the rich. The money will always get back to them because the poor have to spend all their money just to survive. They put it right back into the economy.




You don't think it's a tough decision to go into massive debt to pump up an economy fcuked over by the people you support? The government have responsibility, something you in the private sector have a lot less of. If people are starving on the street, some scumbag like Bill Gates isn't going to get the blame.




I love this, "jobs are shed" euphemistic bs. That's people we're talking about with families.



They're hugely profitable and they could have carried those people or redeployed them. But every opportunity these guys have to cut jobs, and we're not talking fat here, they're cutting into muscle and bone, they take it. Microsoft and Ballmer and Gates Don't have the same responsibility of a government and therefore can just put people on the street.



I have no idea what products you produce. But government performs many necessary functions small businesses are unable to perform. All you people want to do is destroy the government which is the ONLY entity which can safeguard our social structure, maintain our infrastructure, and regulate our society.

If Republicans hadn't been busy gutting our government and tearing down our regulatory systems we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now.

Well, I've tried to reasonably argue my beliefs with you. It's not possible.

You do your thing and keep riding your bike and so will I.
 
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buckwheat said:
Seems to make sense.

Hopefully it won't become a political football.

Oh I am sure it won't :rolleyes: Not any more than exactly how they go about interrogating a suspect is made into a political football.
BTW. totally agreed with your points a couple of posts up. And as far as I recall (and I may be totally wrong here, I'm sure Scott will correct me if I am) but I don't think his company "produces" anything, I think he is in the insurance bizz.
 
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Anonymous

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ihavenolimbs said:
The magnitude of the crisis was different from country to country. The countries that were more affected enacted more drastic legislation. All Sowell is actually pointing out is that countries more severely affected had lower growth. Obvious huh? But he is rewording this in a dishonest way to support his agenda, of "economic freedom".

Speaking of "economic freedom", you are aware that Suharto had to kill more than a million Indonesians to maintain "economic freedom"? Malaysia may have had less "economic freedom" but it is now a far more wealthy country than Indonesia. Govt oversight and welfare policies were far more successful.

Turns out that most people prefer real freedom to "economic freedom" too. Like in Oregon, they just passed higher taxes on the wealthy and corporations so they can maintain public services. Good on them.

I don't know why you're a fan of Sowell, he's just another idiot ideologue. Prior to his current phase of being a right-wing fundie, he was a Marxist. He loves ideology and he's not exactly grounded in reality. Surely you must have noticed this?

As Alpe d'Huez pointed out, Schiff is an example of an actual intelligent bloke that hails from the Austrian School of Economics. The power of science is its ability to predict. Economics is the science of who gets what. :)
A good economist needs to be able to predict too. Dean Baker predicted the housing bubble and subsequent crisis (and bailout, ...) in 2003 . Schiff predicted the housing crisis. Sowell was (and still is) just a puppet for the powerful.

Well, Sowell didn't write one word of the economic freedom papers. It's a joint economic survey that's been taken since the mid-ninety's (I think) by the Wall Street Journal and The Heritage Foundation.


It's funny you would take this opportunity to not read what was posted, respond as if you had and then impune a really bright and accomplished economist. If I were a leftist I'd accuse you of being a racist since Sowell happens to be black. But my sense is you have not read anything by Sowell either and probably didn't know his ethnicity (and even if you did I would figure you just disagree with his positions). I hope you can appreciate the difference.

The strangest part of your post is your mention of Suharto. That has nothing to do with the earlier posted survey:confused:

You call Sowell an idiot ideologue and worship Krugman. Amazing.
 

buckwheat

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Hugh Januss said:
Oh I am sure it won't :rolleyes: Not any more than exactly how they go about interrogating a suspect is made into a political football.
BTW. totally agreed with your points a couple of posts up. And as far as I recall (and I may be totally wrong here, I'm sure Scott will correct me if I am) but I don't think his company "produces" anything, I think he is in the insurance bizz.

Isn't car insurance mandated by the government?

You accomplish a lot more with a lot less writing and probably less aggravation. I need to relax.

I think a quaalude, ahhh.... oxycodone is in order.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Full disclosure, I found this because I was reading Lance Armstrong's twitter page: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/magazine/14texbooks-t.html?pagewanted=1

This is why I oppose the Republican party most specifically. They have become the party of fundamentalist Christianity and seek to impose their religious beliefs on everyone. The interesting part is that the founders of their "Christian Nation" did not want a government sponsored religion because of people just like that. When they begin to rewrite the history books, we are in deep trouble.
 
Alpe d'Huez said:
Glad to find you agreed with much of my post. The one area that draws a red flag to me though is in that I think it's a mistake - perhaps it's just in the wording - when so called "liberals" tend to clump all businesses together when criticizing the pseudo-capitalist system we have. My complaint isn't that businesses (or the super wealthy) should be punished, pay more taxes, etc. per se, as it is that the system we have is now so corrupt, it allows for predatory practices from those who have the means to exploit others immorally, even what should be illegally, to do so.

Hence, I can listen to someone like Dennis Kucinich talk, and he says a few things I fully agree with, but he frequently fails to delineate whatever benefits he perceives from regulation to stop predators and crooks in a way that benefits and allows honest practice from what amounts to the majority of businessmen, and that for the government to stop this through laws and prosecution is actually beneficial for the economy. Instead, nearly everyone on the so called "left" clumps nearly all businesses together, as if the Bernie Madoff's represent 90% of what's out there, when it's far less than 10% - however, the few small percentage that are thugs are enough to spoil the entire soup.

It isn't small business that is the problem, in terms of corruption and exploitation, but the colossal financial credit institutions which have made a business on people's dept. They control everything, since capitalism in America has allowed them to be the motor of the economy, which is based upon a phantom wealth generated at the finacial markets that can easily go up in smoke when real capital is not pumped back into the system, millions default on their loans and the lending institutions go bankrupt.

It is a concept of making money grow magically from nothing, while gambling with peoples investments based upon projected market growths (industrial, housing, technological, etc.). It is the construnction of a virtual economy that runs paralel to the real production and earnings of the nation's citizenry, which has no connection whatsoever with society's actual wealth, that can only be measured in actual earnings and consumption without credit.

But our's is a nation of consumption on credit, and hence accumulated debt, that has its roots in having to satisfy a capitalist economic need to buy in ever increasing quantities (from largely overseas manufacturing plants), for which the credit lending institutions have become the omnipitant protagonists in this madness of eternal growth and pure materialism. The globalization of the capitalist regime has created a need to always consume, even when it is unecessary or harmful. And when home profits don't meet that need, then the financial world has found away to make the impossible possible, though by the most devious, cynical and insideous of means.

Back in the Nixon era it was decided by the financial capitalist lobbies and the Fed that the dollar was to be taken off the gold standard and that oil, internationally bought in US currency, would be the new means to maintain the global hegemony of the American economy. At the same time wages of US workers would not be proportionally adjusted (nor have they been since) to meet the consumption demands of the steadily growing higher prices at the commercial and retail markets that propel the economy. Without more money in their paychecks, which of course benifited the profits of the business owners by lowering labor costs, American consumers would have to resort to buying on credit that was foisted on them by the finance universe and was now going to become the main vehicle of consumer consumption and, therefore, the economy's continued growth. The huge financial lending institutions, furthermore, would profit on the repaid interest from credit card spending, and invest that profit in ever more "creative" and unscrupulous investment profit ventures. And this has placed government allways on the side of the rich and powerful and has futher distanced from the needs and plights of the weak and humble. Perhaps the most symbolic aspect of this favoratism, is the lack of a state sponsored socialized healthcare system that provides universally for citizens irrespective of their wealth.

But I digress. So while the average worker did not see an increase in his monthly earnings, he was at the same time encouraged to accumulate huge private debts and so has taken a double hit. Firstly because he was forced to borrow money that should have been justly put in his check and, secondly, must now also pay off the interest to credit institutions, which, in turn, use that interest to make further proft. Moral: citizens debt becomes a means for the financial world to exponentially increment earnings, while the workers themselves become increasingly reliant upon credit to survive and have no other choice but to be vassels to a system that exploits their underpaid earnings.

And all under the aegis of government! So that when the financial markets were recently on the brink of collapse, the body politic did not hesitate to immediately try and save it with gargantuan sums of tax payers' capital. In what ammounts to the privitization of wealth and the making public, through a State funded bailout, the private debts of financial credit institutions of Wall Street.

The occassion could have (and should have) offered time for reflection, in regards to the entire economic system. But ideas like "sustainable growth," "happy downsizing" and "responsible consumption" are like the calls back to sobriety and measure that ruin the wild party (of the financial capitalists) and so are branded as anathema by them since totally uncongenial to their postions. The finacial world invests everything, litterally everything (politically, culturally, economically) into making sure that nothing changes in regards to its economic practices which, when the going is good, make them exceedingly rich. Whereas when it goes bad we all suffer. That's why when the stock market broke we heard few voices calling for broad market reforms, and many telling us that "daddy isn't dead, don't loose faith in him, he will make it allright, just do what he says and he will make it all better again." If that's not ideological, then I don't know what is. Other than socialism...

Salvation to me seems, however, to lie in returning to real earnings and therefore to living within a certain decorous measure. However in a culture which teaches from birth that "to have" always is virtuous (even without the actual means - where's the problem?) and is even wrapped up into everyone's "right to persue happiness," and that to relinquish from a certain level of consumption is a devious notion tantamount to something anti-American because (in fact at the cultural level is)anti-americana, then I fear there is little hope. And that it will take a total system meltdown before we arrive at a point where even a modicum of change is possible. Suffering has always been the mother of change and I am reminded of that famous R.E.M. tune: "It's the end of the world as we know it...and I feel fine...."
 

buckwheat

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Sep 24, 2009
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Thoughtforfood said:
Full disclosure, I found this because I was reading Lance Armstrong's twitter page: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/magazine/14texbooks-t.html?pagewanted=1

This is why I oppose the Republican party most specifically. They have become the party of fundamentalist Christianity and seek to impose their religious beliefs on everyone. The interesting part is that the founders of their "Christian Nation" did not want a government sponsored religion because of people just like that. When they begin to rewrite the history books, we are in deep trouble.

They have perverted Christianity and for that, I really truly fear for them.

They regard the mote in their neighbors eye before they pull the beam out of their own.

They try to instill fear in others when Jesus specifically reminds us not to be afraid and John Paul II writes a book with that as its theme.

We never have enough resources for the poor while Jesus feeds the multitudes with 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread with leftovers.

Jesus tells us to be merciful and to kill the enemy with kindness and these admonitions are mocked by supposed Christians.

The hypocrisies go on and on.....
 

buckwheat

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Sep 24, 2009
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rhubroma said:
It isn't small business that is the problem, in terms of corruption and exploitation, but the colossal financial credit institutions which have made a business on people's dept. They control everything, since capitalism in America has allowed them to be the motor of the economy, which is based upon a phantom wealth generated at the finacial markets that can easily go up in smoke when real capital is not pumped back into the system, millions default on their loans and the lending institutions go bankrupt.

It is a concept of making money grow magically from nothing, while gambling with peoples investments based upon projected market growths (industrial, housing, technological, etc.). It is the construnction of a virtual economy that runs paralel to the real production and earnings of the nation's citizenry, which has no connection whatsoever with society's actual wealth, that can only be measured in actual earnings and consumption without credit.

But our's is a nation of consumption on credit, and hence accumulated debt, that has its roots in having to satisfy a capitalist economic need to buy in ever increasing quantities (from largely overseas manufacturing plants), for which the credit lending institutions have become the omnipitant protagonists in this madness of eternal growth and pure materialism. The globalization of the capitalist regime has created a need to always consume, even when it is unecessary or harmful. And when home profits don't meet that need, then the financial world has found away to make the impossible possible, though by the most devious, cynical and insideous of means.

Back in the Nixon era it was decided by the financial capitalist lobbies and the Fed that the dollar was to be taken off the gold standard and that oil, internationally bought in US currency, would be the new means to maintain the global hegemony of the American economy. At the same time wages of US workers would not be proportionally adjusted (nor have they been since) to meet the consumption demands of the steadily growing higher prices at the commercial and retail markets that propel the economy. Without more money in their paychecks, which of course benifited the profits of the business owners by lowering labor costs, American consumers would have to resort to buying on credit that was foisted on them by the finance universe and was now going to become the main vehicle of consumer consumption and, therefore, the economy's continued growth. The huge financial lending institutions, furthermore, would profit on the repaid interest from credit card spending, and invest that profit in ever more "creative" and unscrupulous investment profit ventures. And this has placed government allways on the side of the rich and powerful and has futher distanced from the needs and plights of the weak and humble. Perhaps the most symbolic aspect of this favoratism, is the lack of a state sponsored socialized healthcare system that provides universally for citizens irrespective of their wealth.

But I digress. So while the average worker did not see an increase in his monthly earnings, he was at the same time encouraged to accumulate huge private debts and so has taken a double hit. Firstly because he was forced to borrow money that should have been justly put in his check and, secondly, must now also pay off the interest to credit institutions, which, in turn, use that interest to make further proft. Moral: citizens debt becomes a means for the financial world to exponentially increment earnings, while the workers themselves become increasingly reliant upon credit to survive and have no other choice but to be vassels to a system that exploits their underpaid earnings.

And all under the aegis of government! So that when the financial markets were recently on the brink of collapse, the body politic did not hesitate to immediately try and save it with gargantuan sums of tax payers' capital. In what ammounts to the privitization of wealth and the making public, through a State funded bailout, the private debts of financial credit institutions of Wall Street.

The occassion could have (and should have) offered time for reflection, in regards to the entire economic system. But ideas like "sustainable growth," "happy downsizing" and "responsible consumption" are like the calls back to sobriety and measure that ruin the wild party (of the financial capitalists) and so are branded as anathema by them since totally uncongenial to their postions. The finacial world invests everything, litterally everything (politically, culturally, economically) into making sure that nothing changes in regards to its economic practices which, when the going is good, make them exceedingly rich. Whereas when it goes bad we all suffer. That's why when the stock market broke we heard few voices calling for broad market reforms, and many telling us that "daddy isn't dead, don't loose faith in him, he will make it allright, just do what he says and he will make it all better again." If that's not ideological, then I don't know what is. Other than socialism...

Salvation to me seems, however, to lie in returning to real earnings and therefore to living within a certain decorous measure. However in a culture which teaches from birth that "to have" always is virtuous (even without the actual means - where's the problem?) and is even wrapped up into everyone's "right to persue happiness," and that to relinquish from a certain level of consumption is a devious notion tantamount to something anti-American because (in fact at the cultural level is)anti-americana, then I fear there is little hope. And that it will take a total system meltdown before we arrive at a point where even a modicum of change is possible. Suffering has always been the mother of change and I am reminded of that famous R.E.M. tune: "It's the end of the world as we know it...and I feel fine...."

Why are you a Marxist-Leninist?

Just kidding!

Great post.
 

buckwheat

BANNED
Sep 24, 2009
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Scott SoCal said:
Well, I've tried to reasonably argue my beliefs with you.

Your beliefs don't correspond to reality. They're unreasonable.

Scott SoCal said:
It's not possible.

It's not possible? Of course not. I'm supposed to agree with fantasyland? Someone has some awful disease and is supposed to go bankrupt or die because they don't have insurance or they do have insurance and the company refuses to pay for treatment?

I'm talking about people and you're talking about abstractions. I get cancer and you want to give a millionaire a tax break to treat my cancer?

For goodness sake, we already have the Death Panels that jacka$$ Palin was talking about.

Scott SoCal said:
You do your thing and keep riding your bike and so will I.

Good.

BTW, I love the delicate sensibilities of you conservatives and all of your phony outrage, and phony sensitivity.

It's ok to torture people, and start wars based on lies resulting in hundreds of thousands of deaths, deny people coverage for grave illnesses or force them into bankruptcy, but GOD forbid you call anyone on it.

You've got this idiot Gloria Borger on CNN castigating Grayson for calling Republicans out for their health plan which is "don't get sick, and if you do, die quickly," and he's wrong, not the snakes behind these schemes.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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Interesting post on Christianity, TFF (I believe you are a Christian, yes?). It's sad because not all Republicans agree with this form of fundamentalism. And yet those that do not make little effort to utter even one critical word of those that do.

Good post, rhubroma.

I'll try to write more on energy and nuclear power later, as I think it plays into the balance of market freedom and how the markets take care of themselves (or don't).
 
Scott SoCal said:
Why do people get an education? Why do people go to college, trade school or learn any other vocation?

You act as if someone just woke up one day with whatever skills they have and that's it. What if (in your example) LeMond just quit the first time he got dropped on a climb in a race? If he had your attitude he'd of only ever been somebody's domestique. How good would LeMond have been if all he did was complain that someone had an easier path to the pro peloton than he (being an American and all)?

Whatever happened to good decision making? If I go through my life f'ing up at opportunity why on earth do I have a right to demand something from you? I'm not saying anyone should begrudge anyone for anything. I'd like to sign a contract to make a movie for 10 or 20 million. Or be able to hit a baseball 450 feet consistantly and make millions per year. I'd like to grow my business at a faster rate than I am presently. So guess what? Instead of complaining I am actually learning how to run my business more efficiently and market my business more effectively. I hope it works for me, but it might not.

My guess is sanitation workers bust their butts. I damn sure don't look down my nose at them because they have an important job doing something I've chosen not to do. Those guys may not want the headaches of running a business either. You say that some people have to do the actual work, as if someone like me does not work. This makes me smile at you ignorance because I AM NEVER NOT WORKING. Stressing, thinking, calculating, working, solving, paying and collecting then doing it all over again.

You say repubs attack unions. Fair enough. I'm not a big union guy, but I hardly think you can say that unions are not at least partly to blame for the manufacturing situation in this country. Like it or not this is a global economy. If your neighbor can get a flat screen TV made in China for 60% of what he can pay for an American brand take a wild guess at what's gonna happen?

Work, work, work...as if those that complain must not be "working" hard enough at what they are doing and so are unsuccessful. What a clavinist load of drivel. The truth is that most of those that work "their butts off," as you claim, are simply grinding themselves into the ground with no prospects of economic betterment because exploited by those running the affairs.
And no more is this the case than in the so-called developing economies of the emerging nations like China.

Yet we rely on their manufacturing base, which places the Chinese worker who is exploited by his regime often in the most heneous and inhumane of conditions, for cheap comodoties that our consumers can afford to buy. And this is a written law of the globalized capitalist regime, which by nature is inhuman and tyrannical and has nothing to do with democracy vs. comunism, but pure economic practice irrespective of the political-social environment. So when we go around the globe talking about human rights and continue to consume products produced in places where human rights are violated and trounced upon in the most appaling of ways, because convenient, we only behave in the most hypocritical of ways.

When we were a developing nation back in the industrial revolution, our capitalists and those of the West also violated the human rights of workers (women and children too) ruthlessley and without compunction. And thus the unions were invented during the XIX century by us to protect workers from labor exploitation by the all powerful manufacturing industry owners, who of course behaved scandalously. Owners who were bent on the total domination of human spirit for production, at whatever social cost, and to maximise profit. From here the socialist and marxist ideologies were born. How ironic, we caused them to come about by our perfidious commercial practices.

But now, we, in our relative economic affluence (for how much longer I don't know), and owing to our political prestige and military might, have the luxury to be eminently concerned for the human condition, which we shamelessly go around the globe pontificating to everyone as often as we can; whereas in the immerging nations such a luxury doesn't exist - just as it was absent for us a century and a half ago. Though feeling entitled to organize the world as we would like it, we turn a blind eye to the crimes against humanity made by our economic partners, when convenience demands and it suits our economic interests.

So we shouldn't complain about the unions in the US that keep manufaturing costs too high, because they push to give our workers dignified wages, but rather stop buying products from countries who suppress their workers in the interest of satisfying our consumption demands and the wealth of a few tyrants. Yet by now it is far too late for that.

It's too late for that because of the economic system foisted upon us by the great credit institutions of the finance world. America has for long gotten away from a consumer economy that purchases on real earnings, but rather does so through buying in debt. And this has also become the practice of the State itself, which does its fiscal spending while in the red with the "asurance" that the rest of the world will continue to invest in US national debt. So China being the number one purchaser of state treasury bonds, provides the country with a means to continue to consume and without which the entire nation would go into default. So we must buy Chinese, to fuel the later's economic growth while safegaurding our national interests. Because if the US stops importing from China, China stops investing in US debt, in what amounts to a perverse kind of survival alliance in which it is never truly clear who is the fetus and who is the mother, or who the parasite and who the host.

In which case accusing the unions of somehow making US manufacturing less globaly competative, becomes a rather cynical and ideologically motivated position, that is neither serious nor objective at considering both the past and present state of production and the present nature of financial capitalism, debt spending and its consequences for the global economy.

Well at least, for now, America can count on the world's continued investment in US debt, which has been the key to our recent economic prosperity in the abscence of a manufacturing power that is now largely exported overseas. It's lucky we are not Spain.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Alpe d'Huez said:
Interesting post on Christianity, TFF (I believe you are a Christian, yes?). It's sad because not all Republicans agree with this form of fundamentalism. And yet those that do not make little effort to utter even one critical word of those that do.

Good post, rhubroma.

I'll try to write more on energy and nuclear power later, as I think it plays into the balance of market freedom and how the markets take care of themselves (or don't).

I am a Christian, and the idea that the fundamentalist brand of any religion is representative of the God that I know is deeply offensive to me. They have no idea of just how much like the Taliban they are.
 
Jul 14, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Interesting post on Christianity, TFF (I believe you are a Christian, yes?). It's sad because not all Republicans agree with this form of fundamentalism. And yet those that do not make little effort to utter even one critical word of those that do.

Good post, rhubroma.

I'll try to write more on energy and nuclear power later, as I think it plays into the balance of market freedom and how the markets take care of themselves (or don't).

Just curious about markets like fire and ambulance service. Garbage and police. Will they really hold up to a competitive market forces? In the western US Rural Metro offered services and after less than a decade unions and salary and benefit parity with government employees made the private companies look just like the government agencies they were to replace. The Republican's used to talk about free markets for everything and how gov run anything is bad.Republican politics brought private enterprise to a whole different level with Blackwater. Listening to GOP leaders speak about Obama's nuke money allocations they are following that nuke power should be left to market forces, their view is it needs no government assistance.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
February 5, 2010

More Government Equals Fewer Jobs by Peter Schiff

"Regulation acts like a tax on job creation. By subjecting employers to all sorts of extra expenses when they hire people, regulations increase the cost of employment far beyond the wages employers actually pay their workers. In fact, some regulations are specifically tied to the number of workers employed. This provides some employers with a strong incentive to stay small and not hire."

"Although not as visible as regulations and subsidies, government spending also plays a large role in job destruction. The more money government spends, the more resources it drains from the private sector. The fiscal 2011 budget proposed by President Obama contains $3.8 trillion in federal spending. Think of government as a cancer feeding off the private sector. The larger it grows, the more jobs it kills. Unfortunately, most politicians follow the misguided advice of economist John Maynard Keynes, who advocated government spending as a means of job creation. In reality, government spending merely results in government jobs replacing more efficient private sector jobs. "


Them's fightin' words.

http://www.europac.net/externalframeset.asp?id=18153&type=schiff


OH MY, THIS ONE'S GONNA HURT.

January 7, 2010

It's not our fault by Peter Schiff

"In his presentation to the National Economic Club, Bernanke claimed that ultra-low interest rates in the early Bush years were appropriate given the conditions at the time, and that they therefore did not contribute to the housing bubble. Instead, he laid blame squarely at the feat of an "under-regulated" financial sector which had designed and sold unconventional and exotic mortgage products, such as adjustable-rate and interest-only mortgages. According to Ben, it was these irresponsible lenders (who he now hopes to regulate), not low interest rates, that caused the housing bubble.

There are two huge flaws in this line of reasoning. First, if these mortgages were such a problem, why didn't the Fed do something to rein in their use? When given an opportunity to speak about the widespread use of ARMs in congressional testimony, former chairman Greenspan had nothing but praise for these products. He claimed these offerings allowed savvy homebuyers to save money and better manage their personal balance sheets. At the time that Greenspan made these statements, Bernanke was serving as a Fed governor. From neither that position nor his later role as chairman of President Bush's Council of Economic Advisors did Bernanke ever utter a scornful phrase about the mortgages he now condemns in hindsight.

The biggest issuers and insurers of ARMs were Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Both of these Government Sponsored Entities (GSE's) had policies that allowed for borrowers to qualify based solely on their ability to meet the initial loan payments, not the higher payments that would eventually kick in. Why didn't the Fed advise Congress to force the GSE's to adopt more prudent standards? Either they did not recognize these mortgages as problematic, in which case they are incompetent, or they did and remained silent, which is worse. In either case, if they lacked the foresight or political will to prevent this crisis, how can we expect them to protect us from the next?

Furthermore, is it really possible that Bernanke is so clueless that he does not see the relationship between the proliferation of ARMs and interest-only mortgages and the low short-term interest rates that made them so popular? Without the ultra-low interest rates provided by the Fed, the vast majority of these problem mortgages never would have been originated. ARMs and interest-only mortgages existed well before the housing bubble began; however, it wasn't until the Fed cut rates to historically low levels in 2002, and held them there through 2005, that they became so popular.

The only reason so many people were able to overpay for houses was because of the temporarily low "introductory" rates. Had the Fed not set interest rates so low, these options would not have been available, and house prices would have been held in check. In short, by keeping interest rates too low, the Fed inflated the housing bubble by enabling banks to issue mortgages that made overpriced houses seem affordable.

Bernanke also blames lenders for making the false assumption that real estate prices would always rise. However, he neglects to point out that he made the very same mistake. While it is true that many lenders did make this foolish assumption, they did so under the influence of all the cheap money supplied by the Fed. Had they not made so many trips to the Fed's punch bowl, they would have exercised much better judgment. However, the Fed itself can make no such excuse."


"As proof that the Fed caused the housing bubble, I offer a commentary that I wrote in May of 2004 and which was published as an opinion piece in the Orange County Register."

OC REGISTER ARTICLE
http://www.europac.net/externalframeset.asp?id=12&type=schiff


IT'S NOT OUR FAULT ARTICLE
http://www.europac.net/externalframeset.asp?id=17967&type=schiff
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
fatandfast said:
Just curious about markets like fire and ambulance service. Garbage and police. Will they really hold up to a competitive market forces? In the western US Rural Metro offered services and after less than a decade unions and salary and benefit parity with government employees made the private companies look just like the government agencies they were to replace. The Republican's used to talk about free markets for everything and how gov run anything is bad.Republican politics brought private enterprise to a whole different level with Blackwater. Listening to GOP leaders speak about Obama's nuke money allocations they are following that nuke power should be left to market forces, their view is it needs no government assistance.

I sometimes believe that the current Republican leadership is either the stupidest bunch of windbags ever to run for office, or the most dishonest...well, I guess it could be both. Seems they forgot that ole Dubya's ideas were to provide government incentives (including using tax payer money to foot the bill for applying for the right to build) to energy companies in an effort to get them to build what they were already allowed to build. Obama could cut the tax rate for the top 50% of income earners, and obstructionist whiners like Canter and Boehner would claim it was a socialist plot to take over health insurance. What a useless bunch of asshats.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Scott SoCal said:
February 5, 2010

More Government Equals Fewer Jobs by Peter Schiff

"Regulation acts like a tax on job creation. By subjecting employers to all sorts of extra expenses when they hire people, regulations increase the cost of employment far beyond the wages employers actually pay their workers. In fact, some regulations are specifically tied to the number of workers employed. This provides some employers with a strong incentive to stay small and not hire."

"Although not as visible as regulations and subsidies, government spending also plays a large role in job destruction. The more money government spends, the more resources it drains from the private sector. The fiscal 2011 budget proposed by President Obama contains $3.8 trillion in federal spending. Think of government as a cancer feeding off the private sector. The larger it grows, the more jobs it kills. Unfortunately, most politicians follow the misguided advice of economist John Maynard Keynes, who advocated government spending as a means of job creation. In reality, government spending merely results in government jobs replacing more efficient private sector jobs. "


Them's fightin' words.

http://www.europac.net/externalframeset.asp?id=18153&type=schiff

Funny, there is no evidence that cutting taxes and spending during a major recession or depression actuall works that backs up the claims that they are the panacea. Again, nice THEORY you guys have worked up.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
"In the end, I fully expect the government to directly provide make-work jobs to the armies of the unemployed. This will accelerate the pace of private sector job destruction and make our economy even less productive than it is today. This means that while the government may be able to provide people with jobs, the wages they pay will provide little in the way of purchasing power. In the end, we will become a nation of government employees, with plenty of work but little to show for it." From the Schiff article...

Dang you guys are the most fearful, historically uninformed bunch of voters I have ever seen. Your inability to accept the cyclical nature of government and economy is astounding. I simply cannot fathom the fear you have...oh wait, I can. I fear your Fundamentalist hate throwing social police just that much. To me, they will be the harbingers of real terror and erosion of civil liberties. Yet they are also so important to your jersey wearing philosophy that you never even address their blatant attacks on freedom. We are moving toward a theocracy motivated by profit motive, and all you guys do is whine about taxes. I truly fear for our country under your leadership. You will be our death nail.
 
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