World Politics

[blutto]

....the following is specifically about the recent surgical strike we have all heard about ....it also says something about the act of war ( see the bolded part ) and this is something that should shouted from every roof top in Exceptionalistan....because this locale has this rather noxious manner of glorifying war and it seems to do so at every available opportunity ( and this is especially galling given what absolutely horror that wars fought by or under-written by Exceptionalistan have wrought unto several civilian populations in the last few years....and this under some rather dubious or non-existent legal justification.....)....
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" Video and Audio of Pilots Who Bombed Hospital

There is video and audio. It exists. The Pentagon says it's critically important. Congress has asked for it and been refused. WikiLeaks is offering $50,000 to the next brave soul willing to be punished for a good deed in the manner of Chelsea Manning, Thomas Drake, Edward Snowden, and so many others. You can petition the White House to hand it over here.

The entire world thinks the U.S. military intentionally attacked a hospital because it considered some of the patients enemies, didn't give a damn about the others, and has zero respect for the rule of law in the course of waging an illegal war. Even Congress members think this. All the Pentagon would have to do to exonerate itself would be to hand over the audio and video of the pilots talking with each other and with their co-conspirators on the ground during the commission of the crime -- that is, if there is something exculpatory on the tapes, such as, "Hey, John, you're sure they evacuated all the patients last week, right?"

All Congress would have to do to settle the matter would be to take the following steps one-at-a-time until one of them succeeds: publicly demand the recordings; send a subpoena for the recordings and the appearance of the Secretary of "Defense" from any committee or subcommittee in either house; exercise the long dormant power of inherent contempt by locking up said Secretary until he complies; open impeachment hearings against both the same Secretary and his Commander in Chief; impeach them; try them; convict them. A serious threat of this series of steps would make most or all of the steps unnecessary.

Since the Pentagon won't act and Congress won't act and the President won't act (except by apologizing for having attacked a location containing white people with access to means of communication), and since we have numerous similar past incidents to base our analysis on, we are left to assume that it is highly unlikely that the hidden recordings include any exculpatory comments, but more likely conversation resembling that recorded in the collateral murder video ("Well it's their fault for bringing their kids into a battle.")

There isn't actually any question that the U.S. military intentionally targeted what it knew to be a hospital. The only mystery is really how colorful, blood-thirsty, and racist the language was in the cockpit. Left in the dark, we will tend to assume the worst, since past revelations have usually measured up to that standard.

For those of you working to compel police officers in the United States to wear body cameras, it's worth noting that the U.S. military already has them. The planes record their acts of murder. Even the unmanned planes, the drones, record video of their victims before, during, and after murdering them. These videos are not turned over to any grand juries or legislators or the people of the "democracy" for which so many people and places are being blown into little bits.

Law professors that measure up to the standards of Congressional hearings on kill lists never seem to ask for the videos; they always ask for the legal memos that make the drone murders around the world part of a war and therefore acceptable. Because in wars, they imply, all is fair. Doctors Without Borders, on the other hand, declares that even in wars there are rules. Actually, in life there are rules, and one of them is that war is a crime. It's a crime under the U.N. Charter and under the Kellogg-Briand Pact, and when one mass-murder out of millions makes the news, we ought to seize that opportunity to draw attention, outrage, and criminal prosecution to all the others.

I don't want the video and audio recordings of the hospital bombing. I want the video and audio recordings of every bombing of the past 14 years. I want Youtube and Facebook and Twitter full, not just of racist cops murdering black men for walking or chewing gum, but also of racist pilots (and drone "pilots") murdering dark-skinned men, women, and children for living in the wrong countries. Exposing that material would be a healing act beyond national prejudice and truly worthy of honoring Doctors Without Borders."
_______

...and in the case of Exceptionalistan war has paid huge dividends....to the point where the economy is so warped to support war that it simply could not move off a war footing without very serious long term problems readjusting....so while Americans may or may not be supporters of permanent war they most certainly have enjoyed the fruits of war...

...and another article from the same author that youse may find interesting....

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/david-swanson/64237/amnesty-international-once-again-refuses-to-oppose-war

Cheers

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

In which case you are probably more qualified to talk about military matters in a balanced way, rather than a dunderheaded brainwashed ex-serviceman whose training was all about not thinking for himself, and following orders unquestioningly, without any consideration to the contribution of their actions to immorality and suffering.

Thank goodness we have people like you to protect.

"I don't agree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say them'..civilians, gotta love 'em.

Yup, military isn't for everybody. Killing people and breaking things is what we train to do. Unfortunately, being under civilian leadership-the UK and Australia also(your 'homes'), they are the ones that goon things up.

You are welcome, BTW-WWII....

I find this particular brand of American jingoism really puzzling. Protect Americans from what, exactly? You've got small, weak, yet friendly nations to the north and south. On the left and right are vast oceans. Nobody is ever going to invade the USA. Ever. Militarily, you could defend yourselves with a navy one fifth its current size and a vastly reduced air force. An army roughly the size of Russia's would be overkill considering you have half the landmass and *no* borders to defend.

Do you really think North Korea, Iran and Russia are a threat? What are they going to do, exactly? Swim to San Diego and fight their way to Washington DC using knives and whatever food they find in dumpsters (i.e., no supply lines)? Is the US really at risk of a ballistic missile strike? Only Russia has the right armaments and all that would do is get them is nuked.

And "welcome for WWII..." oh, that's just dumb. The Wehrmacht broke themselves against the Russians and once the Japanese were denied Indonesian oil there was only one possible outcome. The US waited for an opportune moment and entered WWII late. A lot of other countries did the heavy lifting; namely Russia, Britain, and China.

The US military does not defend Americans. It projects imperialism.

John Swanson

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

In which case you are probably more qualified to talk about military matters in a balanced way, rather than a dunderheaded brainwashed ex-serviceman whose training was all about not thinking for himself, and following orders unquestioningly, without any consideration to the contribution of their actions to immorality and suffering.

Thank goodness we have people like you to protect.

"I don't agree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say them'..civilians, gotta love 'em.

Yup, military isn't for everybody. Killing people and breaking things is what we train to do. Unfortunately, being under civilian leadership-the UK and Australia also(your 'homes'), they are the ones that goon things up.

You are welcome, BTW-WWII....

I find this particular brand of American jingoism really puzzling. Protect Americans from what, exactly? You've got small, weak, yet friendly nations to the north and south. On the left and right are vast oceans. Nobody is ever going to invade the USA. Ever. Militarily, you could defend yourselves with a navy one fifth its current size and a vastly reduced air force. An army roughly the size of Russia's would be overkill considering you have half the landmass and *no* borders to defend.

Do you really think North Korea, Iran and Russia are a threat? What are they going to do, exactly? Swim to San Diego and fight their way to Washington DC using knives and whatever food they find in dumpsters (i.e., no supply lines)? Is the US really at risk of a ballistic missile strike? Only Russia has the right armaments and all that would do is get them is nuked.

And "welcome for WWII..." oh, that's just dumb. The Wehrmacht broke themselves against the Russians and once the Japanese were denied Indonesian oil there was only one possible outcome. The US waited for an opportune moment and entered WWII late. A lot of other countries did the heavy lifting; namely Russia, Britain, and China.

The US military does not defend Americans. It projects imperialism.

John Swanson

....following the example of their late involvement in WW1.....economically Exceptionalistan did very well in that war....

Cheers

 

[wendybnt]

It was waiting in the wings to take over when the British Empire started to wobble. Kind of ironic that the UK has ended up as a US client state.

 

[python]

re the 2 posts above on ww2 and the late american entry, i get the views expressed but don't think they are entirely accurate...indeed, the 1944 opening of the normandy front was a deliberate strategy to bleed the germans and the russians, but it was the american leader roosevelt who committed to stalin (against the churchill's energetic objections) to attack the germans in france. also, america was dealing with the japanese then.

if anything, the us in my view was a positive force and a role model to an extent then compared to the arrogant power it has become after korea.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

re the 2 posts above on ww2 and the late american entry, i get the views expressed but don't think they are entirely accurate...indeed, the 1944 opening of the normandy front was a deliberate strategy to bleed the germans and the russians, but it was the american leader roosevelt who committed to stalin (against the churchill's energetic objections) to attack the germans in france. also, america was dealing with the japanese then.

if anything, the us in my view was a positive force and a role model to an extent then compared to the arrogant power it has become after korea.

The true value of the US in the Europe theater wasn't Normandy. The real value was having them in North Africa and Italy where they bled resources (particularly oil) that would have been sent north to fight the Russians. Of that, they did a splendid job. Normandy was simply the first (grisly, bloody, expensive) gambit of the endgame. The war was pretty much decided by that point.

John Swanson

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re:

No ***.

What the figure of 70 attacked countries shows is that the US military is used as the executive arm of the corporations, whether they be petro-chemicals, arms , or Coca-Cola.

There hasn't been a war about defending US territory, since....ooh...I don't know when, unless of course you count the attack on a US military base on the annexed island of Hawaii.

Nothing about the US military is honourable, so if you try and serve that crap up here you'll get it handed to you on a plate. That there are American people desperate, vulnerable, or stupid enough to be suckered into murdering penniless brown people on behalf of the Bush oil family and their cronies is tragic. That you buy the lie is even more tragic.

Open your eyes.

My eyes are wide open thanks. No civilian is going to change that. You can call me all the names you want. Ahhh civilians, but a compliment and derogatory at the same time. Enjoy your life in your little bubble, enjoy your role in life on the governments tit, without costing you anything nor your 'serving' anything but yourself.

Out.

 

[blutto]

Re:

re the 2 posts above on ww2 and the late american entry, i get the views expressed but don't think they are entirely accurate...indeed, the 1944 opening of the normandy front was a deliberate strategy to bleed the germans and the russians, but it was the american leader roosevelt who committed to stalin (against the churchill's energetic objections) to attack the germans in france. also, america was dealing with the japanese then.

if anything, the us in my view was a positive force and a role model to an extent then compared to the arrogant power it has become after korea.

....you have either forgotten or don't realize the extent they went to use their nuclear arsenal as a big, nay, huge stick...that as much as anything helped set the stage for the part of the Cold War in which MAD ruled....

Cheers

 

[wendybnt]

Re: Re:

No ***.

What the figure of 70 attacked countries shows is that the US military is used as the executive arm of the corporations, whether they be petro-chemicals, arms , or Coca-Cola.

There hasn't been a war about defending US territory, since....ooh...I don't know when, unless of course you count the attack on a US military base on the annexed island of Hawaii.

Nothing about the US military is honourable, so if you try and serve that crap up here you'll get it handed to you on a plate. That there are American people desperate, vulnerable, or stupid enough to be suckered into murdering penniless brown people on behalf of the Bush oil family and their cronies is tragic. That you buy the lie is even more tragic.

Open your eyes.

My eyes are wide open thanks. No civilian is going to change that. You can call me all the names you want. Ahhh civilians, but a compliment and derogatory at the same time. Enjoy your life in your little bubble, enjoy your role in life on the governments tit, without costing you anything nor your 'serving' anything but yourself.

Out.

Did you even realise you were employed by the megacorps to make them richer?

Well done you. An examined life, well lived.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

wow welcome to the discussion NZ numb-nutz.

SO much To do so much to read.

You guys in NZ hit the hippy lettuce to much.

No doubt there are some down right offensive post's if not attacks with lies spun like a bunch of children wrote them. AND NO.....I'm not talking about PYTHON's posts who are some of the most informed in this thread.

Maybe later after I get a few RED vodkas can I speak with respect to the subjects you children have discussed. PEACE BRAH's

 

[Semper Fidelis]

oh and by the way the numb-nutz part was plural not singular.

 

[wendybnt]

wow welcome to the discussion NZ numb-nutz.

SO much To do so much to read.

You guys in NZ hit the hippy lettuce to much.

No doubt there are some down right offensive post's if not attacks with lies spun like a bunch of children wrote them. AND NO.....I'm not talking about PYTHON's posts who are some of the most informed in this thread.

Maybe later after I get a few RED vodkas can I speak with respect to the subjects you children have discussed. PEACE BRAH's

I think you've probably just stopped the thread in its tracks.

It's rare to see such a well-argued, incisive and erudite post made here, and I'm sure we all can barely wait to see how the addition of some alcohol to your brane will only make your subsequent posts more articulate and lucid.

They are a joy to read. Keep going. You are an inspiration to us all.

 

[Echoes]

Re: Re:

The real value was having them in North Africa and Italy where they bled resources (particularly oil) that would have been sent north to fight the Russians. Of that, they did a splendid job. Normandy was simply the first (grisly, bloody, expensive) gambit of the endgame. The war was pretty much decided by that point.

Which oil? North Africa was governed by Vichy France back then and unlike many think, Vichy was militarily neutral. It's true that Darlan supplied the Afrikakorps with oil but that was without the consent of his government (and more of a retaliation for Mers El-Kebir). When the Americans came, he switched side completely.

At the same time, Lybia was already controlled by the Brits and the Gaullist French while the Americans were still negotiating with Darlan in Algiers. Leclerc took the Fezzan by the end of 1942. The oil of the Fezzan was discovered at about that time. The US came late in the party there too, I guess.

About Churchill and the Commies, let's remember that he too was committed to Stalin. That's why he betrayed the Serbian resistants - the Chetniks - for Tito's Partizans. Stalin's propaganda misrepresented the events in Serbia and Churchill fell head-down into the trap.

 

[blutto]

wow welcome to the discussion NZ numb-nutz.

SO much To do so much to read.

You guys in NZ hit the hippy lettuce to much.

No doubt there are some down right offensive post's if not attacks with lies spun like a bunch of children wrote them. AND NO.....I'm not talking about PYTHON's posts who are some of the most informed in this thread.

Maybe later after I get a few RED vodkas can I speak with respect to the subjects you children have discussed. PEACE BRAH's

I think you've probably just stopped the thread in its tracks.

It's rare to see such a well-argued, incisive and erudite post made here, and I'm sure we all can barely wait to see how the addition of some alcohol to your brane will only make your subsequent posts more articulate and lucid.

They are a joy to read. Keep going. You are an inspiration to us all.

....frankly am very glad that the thread got stopped in its tracks at that point because at that point a whole bunch of folks who have contributed good things to this thread over the years were pretty well at each others throats and I for one was getting very uncomfortable with the situation ( which is why I left well before that point )...

....as for the " well-argued, incisive and erudite post"....well, sometimes that works, and sometimes someone coming in and just slamming his fist on the table and saying enough is enough is just as, or more, effective...bottom line that "well-argued, incisive and erudite post" stopped this thread in its tracks and that I consider good ....

...so the question now is how do we put humpty dumpty back together again and continue merrily traipsing down this oft rocky path we seem to enjoy ....

Cheers

 

[blutto]

.....while I have come up with nothing brilliant as dealing with the HD problem outlined above would like at this point to continue with our regularly scheduled programming.....

...find below an interesting article on the very current situation in Syria with some very relevant historical background....
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"The great danger of faking your ability to do something in the public square is that someone with an actual desire to the job you are pretending to do might come along and show you up.

This is what has just happened to the US in Syria with the entrance of Russia into the fight against ISIL.

And as is generally the case with posers caught with their pants down, the US policy elites are not happy about it.

You see, the US strategic goal in Syria is not as your faithful mainstream media servants (led by that redoubtable channeler of Neo-Con smokescreens at the NYT Michael Gordon) might have you believe to save the Syrian people from the ravages of the long-standing Assad dictatorship, but rather to heighten the level of internecine conflict in that country to the point where it will not be able to serve as a bulwark against Israeli regional hegemony for at least another generation.

How do we know? Because important protagonists in the Israelo-American policy planning elite have advertised the fact with a surprising degree of clarity in documents and public statements issued over the last several decades."

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/10/12/us-caught-faking-it-in-syria/

Cheers

 

[Semper Fidelis]

The US policy in Syria did get exposed by the Russian's. Interesting to see what will become of Syria now that Russia is supporting Assad. I did not realize or should I say maybe I need to read up on the information regarding Wessly Clark.

Then there is Wesley Clark’s famous interview, given in 2007, in which he revealed the true strategic aims of those running US foreign policy in the wake of the September 11th attacks. In it, he tells of a conversation he had at that time with a Pentagon official who admitted that the real plan was “to attack and destroy the governments in seven countries in five years”.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re:

In which case you are probably more qualified to talk about military matters in a balanced way, rather than a dunderheaded brainwashed ex-serviceman whose training was all about not thinking for himself, and following orders unquestioningly, without any consideration to the contribution of their actions to immorality and suffering.

EDIT: I realise this looks like it was aimed at Bustedknuckle, but it wasn't. It is a general point

In general who would it have been other than Bustedknuckle? Is that a personal experience you have had with some "ex-serviceman"? Surprised because I did not realize there was much exposure to "ex-servicemen" in New Zealand.

 

[wendybnt]

Re: Re:

In which case you are probably more qualified to talk about military matters in a balanced way, rather than a dunderheaded brainwashed ex-serviceman whose training was all about not thinking for himself, and following orders unquestioningly, without any consideration to the contribution of their actions to immorality and suffering.

EDIT: I realise this looks like it was aimed at Bustedknuckle, but it wasn't. It is a general point

In general who would it have been other than Bustedknuckle? Is that a personal experience you have had with some "ex-serviceman"? Surprised because I did not realize there was much exposure to "ex-servicemen" in New Zealand.

It was in response to BN's request that Python "tell him about his military service".... As if this is a prerequisite for being able to have an opinion on foreign affairs.

I see you are taking the same ball-swaggerring stance, as if having been in the military makes you sacrosanct and beyond reproach.

What it means, certainly in BN's case, and most likely in your too, that you are unable to considers these issues in an objective manner, partly because your brane has been washed but also because you are wilfully hiding behind this notion that military service is sacrosanct.

I really don't hold much hope for a discussion with you being anything other than utterly pointless so I'll be leaving it there.

I won't be leaving the thread however.

 

[ray j willings]

I'm not going to diss anyone who has served in the forces. For most part that is a choice they make for other's it seems a good option to try and move on in life and get some free qualification's. Some however have found this to their cost and it also shows you that there should be other ways to get on rather than having to join the forces has a way forward in life. This is certainly not what US servicemen signed up for.
There is no real US army. They are just being used as puppets for private financial gain by business.
Its unbelievable that this is going on and yet the mainstream media [ who are totally compliant] don't report a dam thing or make a big deal out of it like they should.
The US forces in this case are doing the job that paid mercenaries would do and are cheap labour in comparison.
Nothing to do with war on terror just about profits and power as usual.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/14066.html

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

In which case you are probably more qualified to talk about military matters in a balanced way, rather than a dunderheaded brainwashed ex-serviceman whose training was all about not thinking for himself, and following orders unquestioningly, without any consideration to the contribution of their actions to immorality and suffering.

EDIT: I realise this looks like it was aimed at Bustedknuckle, but it wasn't. It is a general point

In general who would it have been other than Bustedknuckle? Is that a personal experience you have had with some "ex-serviceman"? Surprised because I did not realize there was much exposure to "ex-servicemen" in New Zealand.

It was in response to BN's request that Python "tell him about his military service".... As if this is a prerequisite for being able to have an opinion on foreign affairs.

I see you are taking the same ball-swaggerring stance, as if having been in the military makes you sacrosanct and beyond reproach.

What it means, certainly in BN's case, and most likely in your too, that you are unable to considers these issues in an objective manner, partly because your brane has been washed but also because you are wilfully hiding behind this notion that military service is sacrosanct.

I really don't hold much hope for a discussion with you being anything other than utterly pointless so I'll be leaving it there.

I won't be leaving the thread however.

What makes you think I hold the same opinions or views as BustedKnuckle's?
edit: I want to make it clear that I agree that regardless of military service or not EVERYONE should have a opinion and feel free to make it hear. Just because someone serves their country does not provide them with the only informed opinion.

No one hiding behind anything here. Besides I thought your post was a bit personal towards BustedKnuckle and by reading his reply to you that is the way he read it as well.

So based on one post where I said you folks in NZ were hitting the hippy lettuce a bit much you are going to dismiss any further discussion? Sorry to say but that comes off as a bit childish. Sort of like take your ball and go home after a defeat.

Why would anyone want you to leave the thread? Not like anyone owns it.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

wow welcome to the discussion NZ numb-nutz.

SO much To do so much to read.

You guys in NZ hit the hippy lettuce to much.

No doubt there are some down right offensive post's if not attacks with lies spun like a bunch of children wrote them. AND NO.....I'm not talking about PYTHON's posts who are some of the most informed in this thread.

Maybe later after I get a few RED vodkas can I speak with respect to the subjects you children have discussed. PEACE BRAH's

I think you've probably just stopped the thread in its tracks.

It's rare to see such a well-argued, incisive and erudite post made here, and I'm sure we all can barely wait to see how the addition of some alcohol to your brane will only make your subsequent posts more articulate and lucid.

They are a joy to read. Keep going. You are an inspiration to us all.

Wanted to reply to the bold bit.

Glad that I could provide you with inspiration but -----------when did you start speaking for the entire Forum?

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

In which case you are probably more qualified to talk about military matters in a balanced way, rather than a dunderheaded brainwashed ex-serviceman whose training was all about not thinking for himself, and following orders unquestioningly, without any consideration to the contribution of their actions to immorality and suffering.

EDIT: I realise this looks like it was aimed at Bustedknuckle, but it wasn't. It is a general point

In general who would it have been other than Bustedknuckle? Is that a personal experience you have had with some "ex-serviceman"? Surprised because I did not realize there was much exposure to "ex-servicemen" in New Zealand.

It was in response to BN's request that Python "tell him about his military service".... As if this is a prerequisite for being able to have an opinion on foreign affairs.

I see you are taking the same ball-swaggerring stance, as if having been in the military makes you sacrosanct and beyond reproach.

What it means, certainly in BN's case, and most likely in your too, that you are unable to considers these issues in an objective manner, partly because your brane has been washed but also because you are wilfully hiding behind this notion that military service is sacrosanct.

I really don't hold much hope for a discussion with you being anything other than utterly pointless so I'll be leaving it there.

I won't be leaving the thread however.

....I don't think anyone here wants you to leave.....but please try to keep the personal animus out of it because going personal simply doesn't make you or your position look, uhhh, good, and frankly you should have enough cold hard facts to support your case quite nicely....

....the sad thing about yesterday is that a bunch folks who have posted some very good things in these pages found themselves involved in something that very quickly deteriorated into something way way below their usual "pay-grade"....

....so yeah lets discuss this, honour everyone's differences and maybe an agreed-upon resolution may occur, or maybe not....but for the love of gawd lets not debate this, because that will lead absolutely nowhere ( there will never be a right or wrong, no clear winners...because this is real complisticated...history is involved, individuals with different points of view are involved, bureaucracies evil and otherwise are involved...and every possible combination here-in, there-in, hither-to-fore, and so on and so forth are involved....)

....and yeah I'm also not leaving and I hope no one else is either....so everybody calm f%@king down, group hug, and lets bring on Rnd 2....and lets try to keep it civil ( well at least within the standing rules here at CN...whatever they may be this week....)

....lord thunderin' jaysus....you know things is weird when blutto gets to try his hand at peace making...first try, hope its good eh....

Cheers

 

[wendybnt]

I'm not leaving the thread, nor do I think anybody wants me to. that isn't what I was saying. I'm saying that if people respond to an analysis of US military interventions by saying (which is effectively what BN did) that "civilians" views are worthless, and they can only hold them because people like him are prepared to murder powerless brown people for their oil then they can get stuffed. I won't be bothering with them. End of 'animus and everyone is happy.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re:

I'm not leaving the thread, nor do I think anybody wants me to. that isn't what I was saying. I'm saying that if people respond to an analysis of US military interventions by saying (which is effectively what BN did) that "civilians" views are worthless, and they can only hold them because people like him are prepared to murder powerless brown people for their oil then they can get stuffed. I won't be bothering with them. End of 'animus and everyone is happy.

Didn't say that, I said Civilians are both a complementary and derogatory term. Complementary because, being in the military, we work for YOU. Derogatory in that many civilians know so little about the why, hows, wherefores of military action. "Some' get their info from god knows what stoopid website and form their opinions.

Yup, Bush number 2 war was a huge mistake. The world is seeing the result of that vacuum created BUT the military, for good or ill, who fought one of the largest and best equipped military in the world(Iraqi), defeated them in about 6 weeks. THEN the criminals, Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, lost it. More civilians.

BTW-China making serious inroads in the NZ sphere of influence, Russia doing the same from Eastern Europe moving westward...you ready for that? A group hug while singing KumBayYa won't cut it. 'Maybe' the US won't be there either.

 

[python]

as i type, the dutch are holding a press conference on the final investigation report re mh-17...

i tried to find a full pdf to read for myself, bzzzz, not yet available, perhaps later. .. i found a summary that the report is NOT putting a definitive blame on anyone, yet concluding it was a buk missile likely launched from the rebel-held area. also, i came across an almost concurrent press-conference by the missile manufacturer with a summary in english agreeing it was a buk, but concluding it was launched from a govt held territory. one can find a whole bunch of neat pictures and diagrams attached to the manufacturer's release, unfortunately, i found none in english the manufacturer allegedly conducted several real explosion tests and used a supercomputer modelling to project an initial launch point. all materials they claim were rejected by the dutch investigators when offered, but, they say, will be passed over to the international court they are seeking.

i also just found out from a dutch blog that ukraine had a veto power on what goes in the report.