World Politics

[blutto]

Re:

Macron is so much more knowledgeable. He would have had more trouble with Mélenchon.

....is more knowledge sorta like most experienced....cause you know I think I've seen that before somewhere....also heard it really works good in electioning and such...

Cheers

 

[Echoes]

Marine Le Pen was just unclear on the Euro exit. She refer to the ECU system between 1978 and 2002 when Central banks could use the ECU currency among themselves but claimed that big corporations could use it.

Obviously wrong only the central banks did and unnecessary to refer to it. Euro exit is the solution but she just does not have the arguments to defend it. Such a waste.

Macron's win would be a nightmere for me. Those who voted for Macron in the first round, I cannot have any respect for them. They are the old Charlie generation who want to destroy the lives of their children.

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

Macron is so much more knowledgeable. He would have had more trouble with Mélenchon.

....is more knowledge sorta like most experienced....cause you know I think I've that before somewhere....also heard it really works good in electioning and such...

Cheers

Le Pen is far more experienced than Macron.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

I wonder when Russian stooges is going to come up in this debate.

stooge
stuːdʒ/Submit
noun
1.
derogatory
a subordinate used by another to do unpleasant routine work.
"party stooges put there to do a job on behalf of central office"
synonyms: underling, minion, lackey, subordinate, assistant; More
2.
a performer whose act involves being the butt of a comedian's jokes.
"the stooge is offstage"
synonyms: butt, foil, straight man
"a comedian's stooge"
verb
verb: stooge; 3rd person present: stooges; past tense: stooged; past participle: stooged; gerund or present participle: stooging
1.
informal
move about aimlessly; drift or cruise.
"she stooged around in the bathroom for a while"
2.
perform a role that involves being the butt of a comedian's jokes.
"his accent became popular through his stooging for comedians"


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=stooge

....or alternatively just some wild and crazy guys trying to make sense of a wild and crazy world.....

.....me myself have more than a passing intellectual resemblance to that there guy in the middle....though sadly not remotely as charming or handsome....

Cheers

 

[python]

it seems a moderately significant breakthrough had been achieved on the syria war...

i was making a guacamole in the kitchen as i heard from the living room speaker tuned to al jazeera:

'4 security/DE-escalation zones were agreed up on by turkey, iran and russia'. i quit my guacamole to check out the live broadcast from astana...and i saw 2-3 angry opposition members yelling in arabic something as they were bursting out of the room. the text of the agreement is not fully clear. later, i saw the al jazeera interview with the un de mistura. he explained that only 2 out of the 20 present opposition walked out. i also understand that the regime and the rebels were NOT the direct signatories.

if true, this is what turkey was long after. not clear why russia and the us (which was represented by a high ranking official) agreed this time...

just saw this link
http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/syrian-opposition-returns-talks-russian-plan-safe-zones-217897839

 

[Jagartrott]

Varoufakis backs Macron and says he tried to help Greece amidst its crisis:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/04/macron-greece-french-left-marine-le-pen-yanis-varoufakis

Perhaps Macron is not the neoliberal puppet some people proclaim him to be?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

You won't catch me making such a bold statement. I don't know enough about either one of them. I enjoyed the debate though.

 

[blutto]

Re:

Varoufakis backs Macron and says he tried to help Greece amidst its crisis:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/04/macron-greece-french-left-marine-le-pen-yanis-varoufakis

Perhaps Macron is not the neoliberal puppet some people proclaim him to be?

....if the article is correct then maybe you are right....so lets hope shall we....

Cheers

 

[aphronesis]

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/04/france-elections-macron-le-pen-extreme-center-neoliberalism-fascism

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/04/france-elections-macron-le-pen-extreme-center-neoliberalism-fascism

Possibly, but Macron's premiership (assuming it does end up like Hollande and Sarkozy before him) could also spark a further rise of Melenchon or Hamon, perhaps with more of an eye on obtaining power rather than just being a protest vote (which I feel to some extent Melenchon was). With the Gauche as strong as it is right now, Le Pen will struggle to break new ground. Working-class voters could head back to the left, and I don't see Le Pen making enormous strides into the catholic Fillon vote. Dupont-Aignan voters could head to her, and that would give a boost of 4-5%. But I would honestly be fairly surprised if Le Pen musters more than 30% of the vote in 2022 in the first round. If Macron fails, then a lot of his vote could end up in the hands of a rejuvenated and more radical PS. It could also be that PS moves to the centre with Valls or even adopts Macron permanently. In which case, I see a strong Melenchon vote for 2022 that could challenge Le Pen.

 

[mcduff]

We'll see soon enough, but my guess would be that the French electorate have been fortunate enough to witness what a vote for an empty-headed, immoral, racist populist actually means.

They wont be so foolish as to repeat the mistakes made by the American electorate, and to some degree the British plebiscite electorate..

 

[blutto]

Re:

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/04/france-elections-macron-le-pen-extreme-center-neoliberalism-fascism

....if the author of that other article had been other than who he was I would have metaphorically tossed it like I tossed that bit of fluff from Cockburn...but I gotta say that article stood me up a bit....now it could be that Macron could well have been just playing the good cop to keep some hope technically alive so the negotiations didn't blow up ( which as far as I'm concerned they should have and Greece should have gone full Iceland and walked away...instead they went full Ireland....which was real dumb...cause Iceland is doing well and Ireland is fcuked .)....

...that being said all the other sources that I rely on are some variation of the article you posted....and as far as I'm concerned they are still the smart bet...but hope does spring eternal and I hope for so some good end not another lesser of two evils...

Cheers

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re:

We'll see soon enough, but my guess would be that the French electorate have been fortunate enough to witness what a vote for an empty-headed, immoral, racist populist actually means.

They wont be so foolish as to repeat the mistakes made by the American electorate, and to some degree the British plebiscite electorate..

I agree Obama was pretty terrible.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

We'll see soon enough, but my guess would be that the French electorate have been fortunate enough to witness what a vote for an empty-headed, immoral, racist populist actually means.

They wont be so foolish as to repeat the mistakes made by the American electorate, and to some degree the British plebiscite electorate..

I agree Obama was pretty terrible.

Obama endorsed Macron. Unsurprisingly.

 

[Brullnux]

Macron has been endorsed by an eclectic mix of people. Varoufakis, Obama, Gideon Osborne and even Sam Bowman (executive director of Adam Smith Institute). The last two especially don't bode well seeing how abysmally they led the UK from 2010-2016 - OK Bowman wasn't in charge but the ASI is influential, extremely so in Tory circles. Varoufakis possibly the most surprising one.

For those of you who don't know, Bowman is as close to being a Social Darwinist as is acceptable. He is, frankly, not particularly intelligent but very able to cherry pick data to prove a point. For example, he used China as an example of why energy price caps shouldn't be used in the UK, despite the obvious differences between the two states. Famous for writing an article about how inequality doesn't matter. Pointed out it had declined in the twentieth century (Keynesian policies) before stabilising in 1980-present. When his ideology took over. Didn't realise or forgot about the obvious consequence of the data he showed: his institute's policies halted all the work to bring down inequality. Claims he uses real world evidence rather than ideology. Is also wrong.

 

[mcduff]

Re: Re:

We'll see soon enough, but my guess would be that the French electorate have been fortunate enough to witness what a vote for an empty-headed, immoral, racist populist actually means.

They wont be so foolish as to repeat the mistakes made by the American electorate, and to some degree the British plebiscite electorate..

I agree Obama was pretty terrible.

Obama endorsed Macron. Unsurprisingly.

Yes, unsurprisingly.

I suppose he could have blindsided us all and endorsed the fascist instead.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Camp follower I suppose.

 

[python]

Re: Re:

.....endorsed the fascist instead.

what will you call almost 40% of the french electorate when they vote for le pen ? nazi/fascist enablers ? stupid/confused ? hitler-like 1933 facilitators ? deplorable ?

for a record, i am as far from the le pen views as it comes.

i just don't find much usefulness for the passionate political labels. simply b/c if persisted, it is bound to lead to a rather awkward and simplistic insult of almost half of the french.

perhaps 'the deplorable' are more numerous than i realized

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

.....endorsed the fascist instead.

what will you call almost 40% of the french electorate when they vote for le pen ? nazi/fascist enablers ? stupid/confused ? hitler-like 1933 facilitators ? deplorable ?

for a record, i am as far from the le pen views as it comes.

i just don't find much usefulness for the passionate political labels. simply b/c if persisted, it is bound to lead to a rather awkward and simplistic insult of almost half of the french.

perhaps 'the deplorable' are more numerous than i realized

It is their strategy there and here. Label them neo nazi fascist. It is tired and over used with no effect now. Because of stupid so called "intelligent" people fall back on the nazi label that does not work. I said before it diminishes the actual S.....hat that the real nazi's did do.

 

[mcduff]

Re: Re:

.....endorsed the fascist instead.

what will you call almost 40% of the french electorate when they vote for le pen ? nazi/fascist enablers ? stupid/confused ? hitler-like 1933 facilitators ? deplorable ?

for a record, i am as far from the le pen views as it comes.

i just don't find much usefulness for the passionate political labels. simply b/c if persisted, it is bound to lead to a rather awkward and simplistic insult of almost half of the french.

perhaps 'the deplorable' are more numerous than i realized

And what do you call the (almost) 40% of Germans who voted for the National Socialist German Workers Party in 1932?

Try to think of an epithet that doesn't insult.

 

[python]

Re: Re:

.....endorsed the fascist instead.

what will you call almost 40% of the french electorate when they vote for le pen ? nazi/fascist enablers ? stupid/confused ? hitler-like 1933 facilitators ? deplorable ?

for a record, i am as far from the le pen views as it comes.

i just don't find much usefulness for the passionate political labels. simply b/c if persisted, it is bound to lead to a rather awkward and simplistic insult of almost half of the french.

perhaps 'the deplorable' are more numerous than i realized

And what do you call the (almost) 40% of Germans who voted for the National Socialist German Workers Party in 1932?

Try to think of an epithet that doesn't insult.

thanks for proving my point. i got it, you are for the cheap political labels. a suggestion: next time before resorting to historical parallels, if ignorant of a date from memory, use google. besides, the old labels blindly transferred to a modern, much more complicated europe, dont credit you with much understanding of that era. i feel sorry that you disappointed b/c some of your earlier posts gave impression of more depth...

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

We'll see soon enough, but my guess would be that the French electorate have been fortunate enough to witness what a vote for an empty-headed, immoral, racist populist actually means.

They wont be so foolish as to repeat the mistakes made by the American electorate, and to some degree the British plebiscite electorate..

I agree Obama was pretty terrible.

Obama endorsed Macron. Unsurprisingly.

Yes, unsurprisingly.

I suppose he could have blindsided us all and endorsed the fascist instead.

A neoliberal centrist leaning right supporting a neoliberal centrist leaning right...

Anyway, my point was that it shouldn't be anybody's business who France elects but the French themselves. That means that US politicians endorsing any candidate (notice I said any), is stupid and it meddles into someone else's business. Le Pen meeting with Putin was not a good move. It's the people of France's business who they elect, not Obama's or Trump's or Putin's or Erdogan's or Merkel's or Stoltenberg's or Trudeau's or Abe's or May's....

 

[Jagartrott]

Re: Re:

It is their strategy there and here. Label them neo nazi fascist. It is tired and over used with no effect now. Because of stupid so called "intelligent" people fall back on the nazi label that does not work. I said before it diminishes the actual S.....hat that the real nazi's did do.

He said Le Pen was a fascist, you and Python expand that to her voters, which is intellectually dishonest.
While the label can mean different things to different people, note that Varoufakis uses the same term for Le Pen. Nazi and fascist is not the same, by the way.

 

[Netserk]

I think it's pretty fair to characterize Le Pen as Ur-Fascist. (But it's obviously not something you are absolutely or absolutely not, but gradually instead)

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/

 

[rhubroma]

The bourgeoisie devil of the French radical chic gauche Mélenchon faction won't pinch their noses to vote Macron. As historian Emmanuel Todd put it: "To vote Front National is to approve xenofobia, but to vote Macron is to accept submission. For me it's impossible to choose. I consider Lepenism and Macronism to be two sides of the same coin. Le Pen is racism, Macron is servitude to the banks and Germany. For this reason I abstain with consistency, rather with joy, waiting for a better world to be born."

So fascism vs. marketism that is the question and vice versa. Todd concludes there is more to fear "in the rousing to fanatacism of the conformists, than the resurgence of fascism."

Evidently the US election has established the zeitgeist.