Its hard to believe whatever he did pre suspension he doesn't do post suspension to be honest. He is pretty much the same rider.
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I like Valverde too, it's not about that. It just doesn't make sense to think he has changed when you see his performance level is the same as before his suspension. I don't know how to wrap my head around that. You can choose to believe whatever you want of course, just seems like wishful thinking to me.
Re:
Totally agree. Otherwise, we can cancel the sport completely. At least the guy has a history of being unbeatable when he was a child. Was he cheating those days? The era when he could shine was pretty f.. up.
Is he clean? Who knows? Is Sagan clean Who knows? Is Quintana clean? Is was Boonen clean?
We can only dream they are.
I want to be that naive.
Anyway, I do not understand that hate against him. His win in Murcia this year was f.. impressive as many of his former wins. The more I know about cycling the more I like him.
I prefer him to Contador, Froome, Quintana these days as I think that GT riders should also ride one-day races and show they are not one trick ponies.
RedheadDane said:
Totally agree. Otherwise, we can cancel the sport completely. At least the guy has a history of being unbeatable when he was a child. Was he cheating those days? The era when he could shine was pretty f.. up.
Is he clean? Who knows? Is Sagan clean Who knows? Is Quintana clean? Is was Boonen clean?
We can only dream they are.
I want to be that naive.
Anyway, I do not understand that hate against him. His win in Murcia this year was f.. impressive as many of his former wins. The more I know about cycling the more I like him.
I prefer him to Contador, Froome, Quintana these days as I think that GT riders should also ride one-day races and show they are not one trick ponies.
Valverde is clearly a fantastic rider, absolutely unique, probably one of the best ever, but luckily (or unluckily) his palmares can't satisfy fans with a radically romantic attitude who think the whole sport is only about winning. it's normal.
My three current favourites are all Australian, so i'll seperate the rest of the 10.
Firstly Gerrans, I know everyone hates him for his wheelsucking ways but to me he's a rider who used his brains to win and it's been great to see him evolve and be able to take the big wins. With the decline of Cadel he really rose to prominence as Australia's best rider all year round.
Porte for his overall consistency and brilliant ITT's in Paris Nice.
Matthews because I hope he can win one of MSR,AGR or the WC in the next few years.
Other Australian riders who I really like include Durbridge, Haas and Hayman.
In terms of the rest of the peleton in no particular order:
Chavanel (his ride in RVV 2011 was great), Voeckler, Contador, Froome (this is tinged by Sky's dominance but I can appreciate his qualities as a great rider), Greipel, GVA and Nibali. Very surprised to not have Quintana in there or Cavendish, but in a year's time Chavanel and Voeckler will be gone so they can be included then.
Firstly Gerrans, I know everyone hates him for his wheelsucking ways but to me he's a rider who used his brains to win and it's been great to see him evolve and be able to take the big wins. With the decline of Cadel he really rose to prominence as Australia's best rider all year round.
Porte for his overall consistency and brilliant ITT's in Paris Nice.
Matthews because I hope he can win one of MSR,AGR or the WC in the next few years.
Other Australian riders who I really like include Durbridge, Haas and Hayman.
In terms of the rest of the peleton in no particular order:
Chavanel (his ride in RVV 2011 was great), Voeckler, Contador, Froome (this is tinged by Sky's dominance but I can appreciate his qualities as a great rider), Greipel, GVA and Nibali. Very surprised to not have Quintana in there or Cavendish, but in a year's time Chavanel and Voeckler will be gone so they can be included then.
I don't get the hate towards Gerrans either. He's riding in the way that's most likely to give him wins, and judging by the BSPs he seems like a pretty nice guy as well.
I can see why people don't like Gerrans. I understand that he rides the way he does but it must be very frustrating for some to see their favorite riders get beaten by some guy who sits on their wheel only to beat them in the sprint. His MSR win is the most obvious example of that. But yeah, if he took turns like Cancellara did he would probably have been smashed by him in the sprint. I get it, but I don't like it.
Some riders I like
Gesink - he could have been one of the most consistent GC riders if there wasn't his bad luck
Voigt - Very likeable guy in his interviews
Oss - his rock star attitude
Wellens - on a good rainy day
Cancellara - loved his cobbles riding
Greipel - a good sprinter and a good team mate
Freire - pure class
Sagan - good ambassador for the sport and races for fun
Contador - I am a late convert. Love his raids but in 2007 I was a big Rasmussen fan.
Nibali - very complete rider who won GT's and one day races.
Kruijswijk - I was shouting when he fell on the top of the Agnello
Gesink - he could have been one of the most consistent GC riders if there wasn't his bad luck
Voigt - Very likeable guy in his interviews
Oss - his rock star attitude
Wellens - on a good rainy day
Cancellara - loved his cobbles riding
Greipel - a good sprinter and a good team mate
Freire - pure class
Sagan - good ambassador for the sport and races for fun
Contador - I am a late convert. Love his raids but in 2007 I was a big Rasmussen fan.
Nibali - very complete rider who won GT's and one day races.
Kruijswijk - I was shouting when he fell on the top of the Agnello
Re:
You have the better attitude. Nothing wrong with being "naive". Perhaps I am with any rider who have not been busted yet. Yes, innocent until proven guilty! But the rider in question HAS been found guilty. And not for a mere trifle, big cheating. What credibility does cycling have after that? What is its image? It's true that we don't know since his come back but there's been a case and that case makes sure that this rider can no longer be trusted. He has a great riding style? Perhaps. But since he took the unmentionable thing, he can have a great style. Don't forget that there might be some riders out there who cannot afford a great style because they are honestly racing.
However I like your attitude much better than the usual arguments like "level playing field", "they all cheat", etc. Why do these people still watch cycling, you'd ask ...
RedheadDane said:
You have the better attitude. Nothing wrong with being "naive". Perhaps I am with any rider who have not been busted yet. Yes, innocent until proven guilty! But the rider in question HAS been found guilty. And not for a mere trifle, big cheating. What credibility does cycling have after that? What is its image? It's true that we don't know since his come back but there's been a case and that case makes sure that this rider can no longer be trusted. He has a great riding style? Perhaps. But since he took the unmentionable thing, he can have a great style. Don't forget that there might be some riders out there who cannot afford a great style because they are honestly racing.
However I like your attitude much better than the usual arguments like "level playing field", "they all cheat", etc. Why do these people still watch cycling, you'd ask ...
Re: Re:
What makes you think it's impossible to enjoy watching cycling while at the same time having reservations? Whenever there is a lot of money to be made, people will do whatever is necessary to be successful. They will go to extreme lengths to get an edge on their opponents. I think it is inevitable and I also think it is this same story in other sports like soccer, tennis and honestly pretty much every sport that requires power and/or endurance.
That doesn't mean we can't enjoy the spectacle though! Perhaps you can only enjoy sports while telling yourself there is nothing going on but not all of us are like this.
Echoes said:
What makes you think it's impossible to enjoy watching cycling while at the same time having reservations? Whenever there is a lot of money to be made, people will do whatever is necessary to be successful. They will go to extreme lengths to get an edge on their opponents. I think it is inevitable and I also think it is this same story in other sports like soccer, tennis and honestly pretty much every sport that requires power and/or endurance.
That doesn't mean we can't enjoy the spectacle though! Perhaps you can only enjoy sports while telling yourself there is nothing going on but not all of us are like this.
I thought this was meant to be a who are your favourite riders post. It started off ok and then you start to get people shooting down other people's choices. Personally if someone likes a rider that is great by me , it doesn't impact on how I feel about them and I am not going to try and belittle their choice or try to change their minds. You don't need to justify your own choices by belittling other people's in my opinion and it shouldn't be necessary to have to defend your own choices. If you like them you like them end of story.
I like loads of riders for lots of different reasons. I have always liked the guys who work for others even if they don't win lots of races currently Imanol Erviti and Rory Sutherland spring to mind but there are lots of others out there. I also like a lot of the Spanish riders because I have always found them to be polite and accommodating to fans. Luis Angel Mate,Sergio Pardilla,Javi Moreno, and David Arroyo in particular. I have also always found Michele Scarponi to be very approachable. My absolute favourites are Ruben Fernandez, Marc Soler, Ion Izaguirre, Johnathan Castroviejo, Valverde, Quintana, Chaves, Sagan, Landa and Sammy Sanchez. Apologies to anyone I have forgotten.
I like loads of riders for lots of different reasons. I have always liked the guys who work for others even if they don't win lots of races currently Imanol Erviti and Rory Sutherland spring to mind but there are lots of others out there. I also like a lot of the Spanish riders because I have always found them to be polite and accommodating to fans. Luis Angel Mate,Sergio Pardilla,Javi Moreno, and David Arroyo in particular. I have also always found Michele Scarponi to be very approachable. My absolute favourites are Ruben Fernandez, Marc Soler, Ion Izaguirre, Johnathan Castroviejo, Valverde, Quintana, Chaves, Sagan, Landa and Sammy Sanchez. Apologies to anyone I have forgotten.
This is a thread on an open forum and opening up your choices for discussion is part of the fun. But I do think there's some truth to this argument. Belittling riders for the sake of it seems unproductive. I have my own views on wheelsucking, but don't want to start on when "wheelsucking" is just smart racing and when it's really negative. And there's a whole other forum for the other issues, which is rightfully quite lively these days. YMMV.mariposa said:
carton said:
To be fair, it is kinda hard to have a discussion about someone like Valverde without mentioning some clinic stuff when guys ask how it's possible people still like him.
Re: Re:
I guess you've answer the question yourself. No it's impossible to enjoy a sport if I know for sure that they all cheat, even more if it's for profit. The spectacle would be a spectacle of deceiver. I don't care if it's the same in other sports. I don't like soccer/football. If there's cheating in that sport, it's their problem, not mine. We are talking about cycling here, aren't we? I know that the mainstream press is red-baiting cycling because it had the image of a reactionary sport and capitalised on all the affairs in that end, but cycling cheaters gave them a helping hand. Cycling should clean up its backyard first.
And most of all ask how can people claim he is "most talented rider of his generation" while they cannot possibly know that any of his success can be based on talent alone (let alone on hard work), there is no evidence for that. It's frustrating that because of a moderation rule we constantly have to let such claim pass and may not explain why it is an indecent claim.
frisenfruitig said:
I guess you've answer the question yourself. No it's impossible to enjoy a sport if I know for sure that they all cheat, even more if it's for profit. The spectacle would be a spectacle of deceiver. I don't care if it's the same in other sports. I don't like soccer/football. If there's cheating in that sport, it's their problem, not mine. We are talking about cycling here, aren't we? I know that the mainstream press is red-baiting cycling because it had the image of a reactionary sport and capitalised on all the affairs in that end, but cycling cheaters gave them a helping hand. Cycling should clean up its backyard first.
frisenfruitig said:
And most of all ask how can people claim he is "most talented rider of his generation" while they cannot possibly know that any of his success can be based on talent alone (let alone on hard work), there is no evidence for that. It's frustrating that because of a moderation rule we constantly have to let such claim pass and may not explain why it is an indecent claim.
I'd love to continue the discussion but I think it's best we stop considering I can't really go into detail without mentioning clinic stuff.
I think the argument for Valverde being an insane natural talent is based on three things. Firstly, his record as a junior, which was and still is unprecedented in Spanish cycling.
Secondly, his power profile. I'd confidently say he is in the top 5% of the World Tour peloton for w/kg at pretty much any power interval you can name - from 5 seconds up to an hour. Sure, you can improve those abilities (particularly aerobic power) with clinic stuff - but no amount of doping will turn 99% of pro cyclists into a guy who can compete for wins in reduced bunch sprints, on short climbs, high mountains, time trials... it takes an incredible level of natural talent in terms of muscle make-up.
Thirdly, is his position on the bike - how aero he gets, how he descends and generally how he handles it with such great poise - some of it can be learned, but some of it is down to naturally excellent balance and spatial awareness.
Secondly, his power profile. I'd confidently say he is in the top 5% of the World Tour peloton for w/kg at pretty much any power interval you can name - from 5 seconds up to an hour. Sure, you can improve those abilities (particularly aerobic power) with clinic stuff - but no amount of doping will turn 99% of pro cyclists into a guy who can compete for wins in reduced bunch sprints, on short climbs, high mountains, time trials... it takes an incredible level of natural talent in terms of muscle make-up.
Thirdly, is his position on the bike - how aero he gets, how he descends and generally how he handles it with such great poise - some of it can be learned, but some of it is down to naturally excellent balance and spatial awareness.
This discussion seems to be talking about doping without saying the word dope. Please refrain from doping talk/innuendo in the PRR. Take your conversation to the clinic if you want to talk about doping/cheating.
TIA
TIA
Sorry. I think I have some of the blame for veering the conversation off in that direction.
Anyway, I just don't understand why you'd dislike, or even hate, riders for any reason.
Personally I just either like a rider, or is simply neutral towards him/her. As for why I like certain riders? Well... I like Samuel Dumoulin for the simple reason that he's shorter than I am. Not the most rational reason...
Anyway, I just don't understand why you'd dislike, or even hate, riders for any reason.
Personally I just either like a rider, or is simply neutral towards him/her. As for why I like certain riders? Well... I like Samuel Dumoulin for the simple reason that he's shorter than I am.
Not the most rational reason...
Re: Re:
I was more joking in regards to Valverde. I am probably slightly more for him than against. At the very least I believe that he is underrated around here.
Just two, three years ago, there were a lot of people who got easily angered by Valverde on the forum, and I always found this amusing. In my mind this was 99% NOT to do with the clinic. There was just a perception that Valverde wheel sucked too often, rode for himself rather than Quintana, and just rode nonsensically in general.
The height of this amusement - for me - was in a high mountain stage of the 2015 Tour. Contador did one of his crazy long range attacks and got a decent gap, only to have Valverde pull him back (Alberto was about five minutes behind the yellow jersey at that point, but closer to Valverde). This infuriated many (much in the way that Alberto lost Paris-Nice to Thomas last year) who believe that it is a cyclists right to ride for their own objectives, so long as those objectives don't negatively impact on Contador's
And maybe he could/should have waited and forced Sky to play their card/s?
Don't worry; I was also one of those screaming at the television when both of those Contador attacks were thwarted
StryderHells said:gregrowlerson said:So much love for Valverde.
I just don't understand this forum anymore
Yeah I don't get the love for Valverde, same goes for Contador
I was more joking in regards to Valverde. I am probably slightly more for him than against. At the very least I believe that he is underrated around here.
Just two, three years ago, there were a lot of people who got easily angered by Valverde on the forum, and I always found this amusing. In my mind this was 99% NOT to do with the clinic. There was just a perception that Valverde wheel sucked too often, rode for himself rather than Quintana, and just rode nonsensically in general.
The height of this amusement - for me - was in a high mountain stage of the 2015 Tour. Contador did one of his crazy long range attacks and got a decent gap, only to have Valverde pull him back (Alberto was about five minutes behind the yellow jersey at that point, but closer to Valverde). This infuriated many (much in the way that Alberto lost Paris-Nice to Thomas last year) who believe that it is a cyclists right to ride for their own objectives, so long as those objectives don't negatively impact on Contador's
And maybe he could/should have waited and forced Sky to play their card/s?
Don't worry; I was also one of those screaming at the television when both of those Contador attacks were thwarted
Re:
Hahaha! Yeah looking at little Samuel Dumoulin on a TT bike that looks 3 sizes to big for him or more recently a TT bike that fits but looks like a juniors bike always makes me smile
RedheadDane said:Sorry. I think I have some of the blame for veering the conversation off in that direction.
Anyway, I just don't understand why you'd dislike, or even hate, riders for any reason.
Personally I just either like a rider, or is simply neutral towards him/her. As for why I like certain riders? Well... I like Samuel Dumoulin for the simple reason that he's shorter than I am.
Hahaha! Yeah looking at little Samuel Dumoulin on a TT bike that looks 3 sizes to big for him or more recently a TT bike that fits but looks like a juniors bike always makes me smile
Riders I like
G - even though he is Welsh.
Greipel - great off the bike
Gallopin - seems like a good guy
Tom Dumoulin - seems a great guy
Froome - even more so for the abuse he gets
Quintana - really respectful guy
Chaves - always smiling
Kwiatkowski - great style
Sagan - a rock star on the bike
Rowe - Love his strong riding in the classics
Adam Yates sneaks in
There are plenty of others I could mention like Alaphilippe, Dan Martin. GVA,
Riders I respect but don't necessarily like
Cav
Contador
Valverde
Kittel
G - even though he is Welsh.
Greipel - great off the bike
Gallopin - seems like a good guy
Tom Dumoulin - seems a great guy
Froome - even more so for the abuse he gets
Quintana - really respectful guy
Chaves - always smiling
Kwiatkowski - great style
Sagan - a rock star on the bike
Rowe - Love his strong riding in the classics
Adam Yates sneaks in
There are plenty of others I could mention like Alaphilippe, Dan Martin. GVA,
Riders I respect but don't necessarily like
Cav
Contador
Valverde
Kittel
What you got against the Welsh?
Hahaha! Yeah looking at little Samuel Dumoulin on a TT bike that looks 3 sizes to big for him or more recently a TT bike that fits but looks like a juniors bike always makes me smile[/quote]
Or, a situation that hopefully never arises: Imagine if he got a mechanic that would require him to get a new bike, team car too far behind, and the only teammate nearby is Vandenbergh. It... just wouldn't work!
StryderHells said:[quote="RedheadDane":tsdmzm6g]Sorry. I think I have some of the blame for veering the conversation off in that direction.
Anyway, I just don't understand why you'd dislike, or even hate, riders for any reason.
Personally I just either like a rider, or is simply neutral towards him/her. As for why I like certain riders? Well... I like Samuel Dumoulin for the simple reason that he's shorter than I am.
Hahaha! Yeah looking at little Samuel Dumoulin on a TT bike that looks 3 sizes to big for him or more recently a TT bike that fits but looks like a juniors bike always makes me smile
[/quote]Or, a situation that hopefully never arises: Imagine if he got a mechanic that would require him to get a new bike, team car too far behind, and the only teammate nearby is Vandenbergh. It... just wouldn't work!
Re: Re:
Sorry for my late answer. It is in a very ruinous village of the western part of the province of Toledo without any site of interest to be honest.
Most people migrated during the 60's, 70's and 80's to the big southern suburbial towns of Madrid, including Pinto, where Alberto Contador stems from. In fact, I believe that Contador's family originates from neighbouring Extremadura, having migrated to Madrid in the late 70's.
Cheers
gregrowlerson said:
Sorry for my late answer. It is in a very ruinous village of the western part of the province of Toledo without any site of interest to be honest.
Most people migrated during the 60's, 70's and 80's to the big southern suburbial towns of Madrid, including Pinto, where Alberto Contador stems from. In fact, I believe that Contador's family originates from neighbouring Extremadura, having migrated to Madrid in the late 70's.
Cheers
Brullnux said:
I forgot about that. Yes, primadonna is exactly what Rolland is. I remember a stage of the 2011 Tour de l'Ain when he lost about 6 minutes or so to Pinot and Moncoutié. I was still relatively fresh but disappointed. So much that he refused to grant an interview to the local France 3 Rhone-Alpes journalist. A guy like Rudy Mollard (by then a young kid) finished even further than him and extenuated but he accepted to be interviewed. I was told it was vintage Rolland. If it is on the Tour of France, he would gladly accept an interview for France TV, because you got millions of viewers but those rednecks in the Rhone-Alpes region, they may just f*** off.
Voeckler, it's shocking sometimes. Not saying hello to other riders, refuses to give an autograph to a kid while he's alone with him, etc. On TV he can seem nice but off camera, he's just horrible, they say.
Re:
Or, a situation that hopefully never arises: Imagine if he got a mechanic that would require him to get a new bike, team car too far behind, and the only teammate nearby is Vandenbergh. It... just wouldn't work![/quote]
There is a picture where Cavendish is on Vandenberghs bike and vice versa from their Quickstep days
RedheadDane said:What you got against the Welsh?
StryderHells said:[quote="RedheadDane":ztsejmwv]Sorry. I think I have some of the blame for veering the conversation off in that direction.
Anyway, I just don't understand why you'd dislike, or even hate, riders for any reason.
Personally I just either like a rider, or is simply neutral towards him/her. As for why I like certain riders? Well... I like Samuel Dumoulin for the simple reason that he's shorter than I am.
Hahaha! Yeah looking at little Samuel Dumoulin on a TT bike that looks 3 sizes to big for him or more recently a TT bike that fits but looks like a juniors bike always makes me smile
Or, a situation that hopefully never arises: Imagine if he got a mechanic that would require him to get a new bike, team car too far behind, and the only teammate nearby is Vandenbergh. It... just wouldn't work![/quote]
There is a picture where Cavendish is on Vandenberghs bike and vice versa from their Quickstep days
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