- May 3, 2010
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131313 said:For me, the worst part is that he continued to race even when he knew he was going to face the music? How lame it that??
To be fair, he's no different to Contador in that respect. So he is in good company.
131313 said:For me, the worst part is that he continued to race even when he knew he was going to face the music? How lame it that??
Mrs John Murphy said:To be fair, he's no different to Contador in that respect. So he is in good company.
c&cfan said:more or less garbage than vino, ricco, pantani, armstrong, ulrich, rumsas, khol, kloden, contador, andy and frank, menchov, evans, nibali, basso, indurain, fignon and lemond, hinault, poulidor, merckx, anquetil, bartali and coppi, etc? i mean, what's really the difference here that can make you a hero or garbage? the stupid and blind fans that one can get along the way? more ability to lie and drug as much as you can before dying?please explain.
and don't say "the ones that are garbage don't regret it.". I didn't\don't see merckx hinault coppi indurain armstrong etc etc regretting.
Moose McKnuckles said:Please stop comparing Contador with Zajicek. It's a false comparison and you know it. I realize some of you hate Contador, but comparing the two just makes zero sense.
Zajicek knew he was going to be banned forever. Contador still can, and likely will, be cleared.
Mrs John Murphy said:To be fair, he's no different to Contador in that respect. So he is in good company.
Berzin said:Here's an interesting little photo I found on the internet-Georgie Porgie with the Pineda brothers and Wilson Vasquez, the Mengoni riders who terrorized the local scene in NYC back in the days.
Maybe Joe Papp can enlighten us on these cats...
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Moose McKnuckles said:Please stop comparing Contador with Zajicek. It's a false comparison and you know it. I realize some of you hate Contador, but comparing the two just makes zero sense.
Zajicek knew he was going to be banned forever. Contador still can, and likely will, be cleared.
Moose McKnuckles said:Please stop comparing Contador with Zajicek. It's a false comparison and you know it. I realize some of you hate Contador, but comparing the two just makes zero sense.
Zajicek knew he was going to be banned forever. Contador still can, and likely will, be cleared.
Mrs John Murphy said:With the exception of the photograph I don't see the difference. Dertie's gone through all but one of the appeals process, which he and his team have deliberately strung out in order to enable him to carry on riding.
131313 said:I think you're being a bit disingenuous. Contador has a reasonable chance of winning the CAS appeal, at least based on the information out there in the public domain, and the appeal has had to even be heard. If it's found out later to Contador was confronted with incontrovertible evidence prior to racing the Giro and the Tour, then I'll agree with you. I just don't think that's known yet.
joe_papp said:I honestly don't think that Zajicek believed he was going to be banned forever - or sanctioned at all after he won at the AAA level. I think he thought that USADA wouldn't appeal and that he'd get away with it. And then when they appealed to CAS, I doubt he expected my testimony to be augmented by seriously incriminating evidence that wasn't available at the time of the expedited hearing last year.
131313 said:Problem is, my understanding is that he had already been confronted with the new evidence prior to Redlands. He continued to race though that and Gila, at least. I honestly can't remember though, since he was completely anonymous in those races. It just seems weird to me.
Of course, I know you see some other former customers of yours in the Redlands results, and a little higher up the results sheet. So Phil's not the only d-bag here. I just don't get how those guys are able to still race, particularly because in one case at least, the guy has told one of his teammates he isn't even going to fight it when the charges come down?
joe_papp said:Honestly, can you blame him then for deciding to keep racing, IF that's how it played out (that he actually SAW the new evidence in-advance)? I mean, you've been a pro cyclist for all of your adult working life, it's as much a core component of your identity as it is a vocation, and you know you're to be exposed for having cheated systematically (even if quite a few other riders who are more famous than you against whom you raced just as doped still carry on) - it will mean the end of your career. You obviously aren't interested in being a moral beacon b/c if you were you would've owned-up to it immediately after being caught the second time and wouldn't have encouraged others to lie for you...in fact, maybe this mentality helps to explain the thinking that went into that "statement" he issued...
c&cfan said:more or less garbage than vino, ricco, pantani, armstrong, ulrich, rumsas, khol, kloden, contador, andy and frank, menchov, evans, nibali, basso, indurain, fignon and lemond, hinault, poulidor, merckx, anquetil, bartali and coppi, etc? i mean, what's really the difference here that can make you a hero or garbage? the stupid and blind fans that one can get along the way? more ability to lie and drug as much as you can before dying?please explain.
and don't say "the ones that are garbage don't regret it.". I didn't\don't see merckx hinault coppi indurain armstrong etc etc regretting.
131313 said:I guess this makes sense. And I guess the fact that I'm not willing to dope also explains why his continuing to race is difficult for me to understand.
Mrs John Murphy said:With the exception of the photograph I don't see the difference. Dertie's gone through all but one of the appeals process, which he and his team have deliberately strung out in order to enable him to carry on riding.
Mrs John Murphy said:He is still riding when many people think he shouldn't be. Hence all the comments about 'we don't know who won the Giro'.
The appeal might have been launched by WADA/UCI but it was delayed by his lawyers to enable him to ride in the TDF, Dertie is exploiting the situation to benefit himself.
But anyway, I don't want this to distract from the discussion, so we will have to agree to disagree about the parallels.
joe_papp said:I I still don't have a firm grip on is an explanation for why so many "fans" of pro cycling who have no direct stake in the sport at the elite level and who aren't even adversely impacted in measurable ways in their amateur competitions by what happens "over there" make the decision to deeply personalize the doping problem and willingly identify themselves as its victims. [/B]
joe_papp said:I can understand how his decision to ride-on would strike you as unconscionable if you had clarity and constancy in your moral vision, and thus viewed doping exclusively through the lens of ethical analysis.
Now the following might be the catalyst for a separate thread, and Mod(s), PLEASE cut and paste this into a new one if you think it necessary (and sustainable), so...
What I still don't have a firm grip on is an explanation for why so many "fans" of pro cycling who have no direct stake in the sport at the elite level and who aren't even adversely impacted in measurable ways in their amateur competitions by what happens "over there" make the decision to deeply personalize the doping problem and willingly identify themselves as its victims. I don't begrudge them their feelings and viewpoints, but I don't understand the headlong rush into the online world to act in ways that, at a glance, seem almost/sometimes pathological.
I'm NOT addressing this to you in particular or anyone in this forum in general, and there's no complaint that I want to make nor disrespect or mocking on my part. But all over the internet at countless virtual water coolers, and in real-life almost every time I interact with a fan or recreational rider I observe (based on my perceptions) that there is some degree of fascination with the act of talking about, lamenting, and chronicling the moral turpitude of pro cycling and its deleterious effects on the well-being of the speaker and his peers, cycling in general, the entire U23 talent pool, the global economy, entry fees at the next SoCal Cycling Cup GP parking-lot office park circuit criterium, UCI coffers and the price of tea in China.
Of course, I also don't understand why people who don't need to terminate a pregnancy take it upon themselves to invest time, energy, perhaps material or financial resources, + their spouse's/friend's/family's time, energy, material/financial resources in incredibly virulent campaigns to prevent women who do have a need or desire to terminate their pregnancy from exercising the right to do so here in the United States, while claiming that they are called-upon to do so by their "God" (in whom the pregnant woman might not even believe...). I see a massive disconnect there, and the only thing that anyone has ever said to me that seemed remotely plausible by way of an explanation was when my former-mentor Mike Fraysse somewhat mockingly compared the anti-abortion movement to pro sports team supporters who think they have nothing else in their lives with which to identify or define themselves other than pledging and showing their support to an organized, partisan band buoyed the communal cheers of a collective of similarly-disconnected yet rabid fans.
Actually, someone else to whom I'm close provided a brief explanation couched in psychological terms, which I'll have to look-up and share later.
Seriously, if anyone is interested in discussing this, I know I am and I would welcome the dialogue and any insight you can share, either here, directly via email or msg, Twitter, Facebook, etc.
joe_papp said:...
Seriously, if anyone is interested in discussing this, I know I am and I would welcome the dialogue and any insight you can share, either here, directly via email or msg, Twitter, Facebook, etc.
Captain_Cavman said:Not sure that you're going to get a meaningful dialogue going with people you: smear in para1, ridicule in para2 and compare with anti-abortion freaks in para3.
Good luck with the search for truth anyway.
joe_papp said:I'm NOT addressing this to you in particular or anyone in this forum in general, and there's no complaint that I want to make nor disrespect or mocking on my part.