Zipp Firecrest Clincher

[fatsprintking]

Full custom, meaning you find a reputable wheel builder, I know a few here on the forum, or you maybe have one right in your hood. When you do full custom all the parts and lacing patterns are based on your weight, riding style, condition of roads you use, purpose, race/train/both. The wheel is the most dynamic and important part of a bicycle. Great wheels will make a mediocre frame ride much better, it doesn't work the other way around.

Good advice here. I think people would enjoy their cycling a lot more if they purchased things based on it being the best fit for their needs rather than some notion of something being "the best", when all you can really have is the best for you.

Common sense tells you that a 60kg climber needs a very different wheel to a 90kg sprinter or a middle age non racer who puts out about 150 watts, but companies will tell you they can make the same wheel that is right for all three.

After a lot of stuffing around I have come back to simple box section rims (ambrossio excellence) and a pretty heavy duty build re spokes. I run hugi hubs on my race wheels and an old set of shimano 600 on my training wheels. Vitoria rubino pro tyres for training, and conti gp4000 and latex tubes for racing.

I have had several sets of Kysriums and dura ace wheels, but the above spec is perfect for me and never gives me any issues, providing a strong, stiff and durable wheel that just needs a hub service each year and maybe a tweak on the trueing stand after hitting a big pothole. My race wheels weigh in at around 1700 g but they are super strong. I notice a difference in tyre pressure more than I notice wieght between my racing and training wheels.

 

[veganrob]

Cycling Tips on his one-year experience with 404 Firecrest clinchers (read the comment at the end, not the initial review).

He and his teammates had a litany of problems with spokes, hubs, and rims, culminating in a blowout on a high-speed descent.

It should be pointed out that he's a big guy (probably up around the 80 kg mark), and an absolute watt monster when he's in the mood. But it's also very unusual for him to say something less than complimentary about equipment.

My conclusions from this are:

1) I'm sticking with tubs on carbon rims for now, even though they are a massive logistical PITA.
2) When I get a new set of race wheels made up, I'm getting them custom built with robust hubs.

Good of you to provide that link. Everyone should read it.

I have re-built more Zipp wheels than most. my shop being in Indy. They are everything the author says except count on replacing the bearings every year. I have taken tours of their facilities three times, last time last year. Beware. There is a kool aid jug in every room.
One reason for lack of durability is their wheels are tested for a 135 lb rider. Seriously. I asked why they said it was industry standard. Find it hard to believe. I've had so much trouble with Zipp I would never recommend them to anyone. Except maybe triathlete that doesn't use them much, but I've seen them even blow them up because the wheels are so weak.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Full custom, meaning you find a reputable wheel builder, I know a few here on the forum, or you maybe have one right in your hood. When you do full custom all the parts and lacing patterns are based on your weight, riding style, condition of roads you use, purpose, race/train/both. The wheel is the most dynamic and important part of a bicycle. Great wheels will make a mediocre frame ride much better, it doesn't work the other way around.

Good advice, but I don't want some 1700 gram boat anchors just because some wheel builder thinks that wheel is going to last me 20 years. I want a wheel that looks good. I may sell it in 2 years or 1. I want something that, when it look at it, it screams "lets' go ride!". I don't care about some 32 spoke Ambrosio box section rims because they're a great throwback to the 1980s.

So, I'm basically left with having no wheelbuilder who can direct me towards what I want: a sub 1500g wheelset with great hubs and moderately aero profile. I end up buying factory wheels because it's easier and because I can pay $1 for 2 years of zero worry.

 

[rgmerk]

So, I'm basically left with having no wheelbuilder who can direct me towards what I want: a sub 1500g wheelset with great hubs and moderately aero profile. I end up buying factory wheels because it's easier and because I can pay $1 for 2 years of zero worry.

I dunno whom you've approached, but that's precisely what my custom wheelbuilder supplied me with. And they were great - until I got a second bike and decided that my race wheels could stay on the race bike most of the time, and that I'd prefer cheaper, tougher wheels with a pile of spokes for training.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Good advice, but I don't want some 1700 gram boat anchors just because some wheel builder thinks that wheel is going to last me 20 years. I want a wheel that looks good. I may sell it in 2 years or 1. I want something that, when it look at it, it screams "lets' go ride!". I don't care about some 32 spoke Ambrosio box section rims because they're a great throwback to the 1980s.

So, I'm basically left with having no wheelbuilder who can direct me towards what I want: a sub 1500g wheelset with great hubs and moderately aero profile. I end up buying factory wheels because it's easier and because I can pay $1 for 2 years of zero worry.

I can build a lighter set than 1500g, more like 1100g. ENVE 25's, custom pc'd Spaim CX Rays in Giro pink, Alchemy hubs. That set would give anyone wood.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

I dunno whom you've approached, but that's precisely what my custom wheelbuilder supplied me with. And they were great - until I got a second bike and decided that my race wheels could stay on the race bike most of the time, and that I'd prefer cheaper, tougher wheels with a pile of spokes for training.

Train heavy-race light is something that is lost on people these days, it's more important to look fast rather than be fast to some people. 32h3x laced to double eyeletted box section rims isn't dated at all still make for the best builds which equates to the best daily riding set up out there.

 

[fatsprintking]

Good advice, but I don't want some 1700 gram boat anchors just because some wheel builder thinks that wheel is going to last me 20 years. I want a wheel that looks good. I may sell it in 2 years or 1. I want something that, when it look at it, it screams "lets' go ride!". I don't care about some 32 spoke Ambrosio box section rims because they're a great throwback to the 1980s.

So, I'm basically left with having no wheelbuilder who can direct me towards what I want: a sub 1500g wheelset with great hubs and moderately aero profile. I end up buying factory wheels because it's easier and because I can pay $1 for 2 years of zero worry.

Come on dude - only a throwback to maybe 2004, when Robbie was still riding them in the sprints. I could make mine 1500g pretty easy, but I am 85kg and like the extra stiffness sprinting.



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[Ripper]

Good advice, but I don't want some 1700 gram boat anchors just because some wheel builder thinks that wheel is going to last me 20 years. I want a wheel that looks good. I may sell it in 2 years or 1. I want something that, when it look at it, it screams "lets' go ride!". I don't care about some 32 spoke Ambrosio box section rims because they're a great throwback to the 1980s.

So, I'm basically left with having no wheelbuilder who can direct me towards what I want: a sub 1500g wheelset with great hubs and moderately aero profile. I end up buying factory wheels because it's easier and because I can pay $1 for 2 years of zero worry.

What I have seen locally for under $500
- 27 mm deep niobium alloy rim - 445 g.
- UltraLight 6-pawl 277 g hubset.
- Sapim Laser spokes front and rear.
- Alloy nipples front and rear non-drive. Brass nipples drive side.
- 20 spoke front - 1x lacing. 24 spoke rear - 2x/2x lacing.
- Sealed Enduro cartridge bearings.
- Weight: 610g front, 780g rear

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Good advice, but I don't want some 1700 gram boat anchors just because some wheel builder thinks that wheel is going to last me 20 years. I want a wheel that looks good. I may sell it in 2 years or 1. I want something that, when it look at it, it screams "lets' go ride!". I don't care about some 32 spoke Ambrosio box section rims because they're a great throwback to the 1980s.

So, I'm basically left with having no wheelbuilder who can direct me towards what I want: a sub 1500g wheelset with great hubs and moderately aero profile. I end up buying factory wheels because it's easier and because I can pay $1 for 2 years of zero worry.

So Moose, what do you weigh?

Say you are a slim moose, at 170 pounds, average bicycle at 16 pounds....that means that 186 pounds are 84,000 grams, plus or minus....

so I wouldn't fret about 200 grams BUT it's easy to build a wheelset that has good hubs, moderate aero, 1500 grams...like Guiseppe said..easy.

$1 IS zero worry, except swapping to your 'other' wheel while it goes back for service.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Thanks for the comments, guys. I am 172 lbs. I'm not a big fan of carbon clinchers though, so that's not really an option. I own two pairs, but they're not ideal for the long mountain descents here.

I would prefer some 25mm-35mm clinchers with alloy surface, Sapim spokes, CK hubs (or DT/Tune) etc. I just don't see handbuilts here much, and nobody really seems to do it, so I don't have a wheelbuilder that I know.

How do you guys find wheelbuilders? You must have them locally. It's more of a convenience thing to just buy factory for me, honestly.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Thanks for the comments, guys. I am 172 lbs. I'm not a big fan of carbon clinchers though, so that's not really an option. I own two pairs, but they're not ideal for the long mountain descents here.

I would prefer some 25mm-35mm clinchers with alloy surface, Sapim spokes, CK hubs (or DT/Tune) etc. I just don't see handbuilts here much, and nobody really seems to do it, so I don't have a wheelbuilder that I know.

How do you guys find wheelbuilders? You must have them locally. It's more of a convenience thing to just buy factory for me, honestly.

You need to forget about this whole carbon clincher with alloy braking surface junk, it's dated tech and HED is really the only one that makes a wheel like that anymore. What you really need is a fully alloy rimmed wheel for your mountain rides with really nice hubs. Velocity A23 rims, Alchemy hubs, Sapim spokes. 24h 2x front, 28h 2x rear. Insert what ever color you want for rims, spokes, and hubs. That's also a sub 1500g set, and will ride better than any of that garbage you've been buying.

Where in the world do you live that's seemingly void of wheel builders? FYI, I can ship wheel sets pretty much anywhere in the US for about 20 bucks.

Don't keep riding those crap fast food wheels that you buy new every other year! Stop supporting companies that whose business model is based volume, not quality!!

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

You need to forget about this whole carbon clincher with alloy braking surface junk, it's dated tech and HED is really the only one that makes a wheel like that anymore. What you really need is a fully alloy rimmed wheel for your mountain rides with really nice hubs. Velocity A23 rims, Alchemy hubs, Sapim spokes. 24h 2x front, 28h 2x rear. Insert what ever color you want for rims, spokes, and hubs. That's also a sub 1500g set, and will ride better than any of that garbage you've been buying.

Where in the world do you live that's seemingly void of wheel builders? FYI, I can ship wheel sets pretty much anywhere in the US for about 20 bucks.

Don't keep riding those crap fast food wheels that you buy new every other year! Stop supporting companies that whose business model is based volume, not quality!!

You misunderstood. I'm not saying carbon clincher with alloy surface. I mean alloy rim period. No carbon. What does a wheelset like you mentioned above run? I have no idea. Nobody seems to build wheels here. Nobody. I haven't seen a handbuilt locally in ages.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

You misunderstood. I'm not saying carbon clincher with alloy surface. I mean alloy rim period. No carbon. What does a wheelset like you mentioned above run? I have no idea. Nobody seems to build wheels here. Nobody. I haven't seen a handbuilt locally in ages.

The A23 builds that I do with my hubs, I use the EDCO Super G run about 700-800 depending on # of spokes and spoke type, The previously mentioned set with Alchemy hubs would be about 100 more, which in the same price range as CK, DT, Tune, etc. If you're serious send me a PM.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

I am 172 lbs. I'm not a big fan of carbon clinchers though, so that's not really an option. I own two pairs, but they're not ideal for the long mountain descents here.

All too common story, you will be riding full carbon clinchers once road disk brakes become the standard.

 

[Llewellyn]

FYI, I can ship wheel sets pretty much anywhere in the US for about 20 bucks.

Do you ship to Australia? What's your opinion on Dura Ace 7900 hubs built up with H Plus Son TB14 rims? I'm after something that I can service myself, and most importantly - comes in silver and looks good

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Do you ship to Australia? What's your opinion on Dura Ace 7900 hubs built up with H Plus Son TB14 rims? I'm after something that I can service myself, and most importantly - comes in silver and looks good

Sounds like a great set! I do ship pretty much anywhere in the world, I've shipped to AU a few times. Isn't cheap though, and if I remember right your import duties are pretty ridiculous.

Just to clarify what parts I build with, for hubs I primarily use the EDCO Super G, have been since it's debut 12 years ago. It's such a great little hub set that they haven't had to redesign anything about it in all these years. In the past year I've added ALCHEMY to the mix, which are in all honesty one of the best designed and performing road hub sets on the market, and conveniently manufactured 22 miles from my truing stand right here in Colorado. I will be adding a couple California made hubs soon from PAUL and WHITE INDUSTRIES.

Alloy rims I use are AMBROSIO and VELOCITY, carbon from ENVE. I've built two sets of H Plus Son TB 14's for customers and I really like how they built up, they love them, but before I bring any wheel part into my line up I need to put it through the ringer on my own bikes to determine if it's up to my standards.

Spokes from Sapim for like forever, Pillar is new last year.

 

[Ripper]

What I have seen locally for under $500
- 27 mm deep niobium alloy rim - 445 g.
- UltraLight 6-pawl 277 g hubset.
- Sapim Laser spokes front and rear.
- Alloy nipples front and rear non-drive. Brass nipples drive side.
- 20 spoke front - 1x lacing. 24 spoke rear - 2x/2x lacing.
- Sealed Enduro cartridge bearings.
- Weight: 610g front, 780g rear

BTW ... these are custom wheels built locally, not factory.

 

[Notso Swift]

Hey Moose
Where are you?
There is a definite smugness you get from rolling on a set of custom wheels, just like the pro's use

Sounds like a great set! I do ship pretty much anywhere in the world, I've shipped to AU a few times. Isn't cheap though, and if I remember right your import duties are pretty ridiculous.

No duty as there is a FTA, Tax is only over $1000
Freight is often the killer, $80 USPS Minimum,
Volume calculators do no favours...

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

What I have seen locally for under $500
- 27 mm deep niobium alloy rim - 445 g.
- UltraLight 6-pawl 277 g hubset.
- Sapim Laser spokes front and rear.
- Alloy nipples front and rear non-drive. Brass nipples drive side.
- 20 spoke front - 1x lacing. 24 spoke rear - 2x/2x lacing.
- Sealed Enduro cartridge bearings.
- Weight: 610g front, 780g rear

BTW ... these are custom wheels built locally, not factory.

Pretty decent budget wheel set, but I don't think it really applies to what we're talking about on this thread, more high end. This wheel set you listed from your local builder is probably pretty nice for the money, but really there is nothing special going on with the hubs or rims, all Taiwan made. Decent, nothing spectacular though.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

The A23 builds that I do with my hubs, I use the EDCO Super G run about 700-800 depending on # of spokes and spoke type, The previously mentioned set with Alchemy hubs would be about 100 more, which in the same price range as CK, DT, Tune, etc. If you're serious send me a PM.

I'll send you a PM. Never had a custom set of wheels before. Thinking maybe Alchemy, Tune, or CK. Something nice. I saw Edco hub bodies may be compatible for both Shimano and Campy?

Can you do different color spokes or is that a bad idea?

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

I'll send you a PM. Never had a custom set of wheels before. Thinking maybe Alchemy, Tune, or CK. Something nice. I saw Edco hub bodies may be compatible for both Shimano and Campy?

Can you do different color spokes or is that a bad idea?

I still have the standard freehub bodies on my inventory of EDCO hubs, next round will feature the Multisys body that accepts both Shimano, and Campy. Colored spokes, whatever gets you out of bed dude, they all work the same.

I just sent off a PM to another forum member about hub choice. For the money, which ALCHEMY, DT, TUNE, CK, are all about the same price, right around $600, I've got to recommend ALCHEMY, they are just simply the best designed, best to build with, and riding high end hubs out there.

http://youtu.be/BC_Ii_WmoR0]This video[/URL] shows Jeremy, the owner and chief designer of Alchemy doing a freehub swap from Campy to Shimano. When he's going through the steps he explains all the design elements that make up a pretty outstanding hub, and why it's better than conventional hub design.

http://youtu.be/BC_Ii_WmoR0

Great info here about Alchemy and the other hubs we're talking about.

http://fairwheelbikes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=6940

 

[blutto]

I still have the standard freehub bodies on my inventory of EDCO hubs, next round will feature the Multisys body that accepts both Shimano, and Campy. Colored spokes, whatever gets you out of bed dude, they all work the same.

I just sent off a PM to another forum member about hub choice. For the money, which ALCHEMY, DT, TUNE, CK, are all about the same price, right around $600, I've got to recommend ALCHEMY, they are just simply the best designed, best to build with, and riding high end hubs out there.

http://youtu.be/BC_Ii_WmoR0]This video[/URL] shows Jeremy, the owner and chief designer of Alchemy doing a freehub swap from Campy to Shimano. When he's going through the steps he explains all the design elements that make up a pretty outstanding hub, and why it's better than conventional hub design.

http://youtu.be/BC_Ii_WmoR0

Great info here about Alchemy and the other hubs we're talking about.

http://fairwheelbikes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=6940

...wow...that FairWheel Bikes article was amazing...thanks for bringing that to our attention...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Martin318is]

...wow...that FairWheel Bikes article was amazing...thanks for bringing that to our attention...

Cheers

blutto

+1 - Excellent piece of info

 

[Notso Swift]

Fairwheel are an excellent resource and use this same through technique on all their reviews
They also stock some truly drool worthy weight weenie gear
(Madcow posts on the WW forum as well)

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Hey Moose
Where are you?
There is a definite smugness you get from rolling on a set of custom wheels, just like the pro's use

Salt Lake City, UT.

I've never had custom wheels. I do have to admit that I would dig some green hubs on black rims with white or black spokes and green nipples. It would match my Time NXR.