104TH LIÈGE-BASTOGNE-LIÈGE 1.UWT April 22nd, 2018

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

You may be talking and talking again but.. we have just finished spring classics.. with the great defeat of Movistar... and Sky.
But Sky will get palmares in GT, and Movistar will not.

It might be vice-versa

It's also likely and maybe even more likely, neither one gets any results.

With Quicksteps run of form I would not rule out Jungels for the Tour and Mas for Vuelta success.
But honestly, with all kidding aside, if both reach the top 10 they could actually win the World Tour this year. For the last 6 years it was always Sky or Movistar...

Movistar isn't winning WT points title this year. Team isn't even close to being strong enough. Not only that it's appearing that their over reliance on Valverde has actually gotten worse if that's even possible. You'd have thought his injury last summer would have been a kick that they need to start finding other riders who can give them results instead of going even heavier in their reliance on him. Although I guess being even more reliant on him makes sense when the team boss actually says that they will ride Alejandro for as long as he can keep going. That's not exactly a good way to build a team.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

No way Dumoulin or Oomen would work for a top 10 place or to help Valverde/Alaphilippe to the finish when they know they can't win themselves anymore. Glad you are not teamleader or cyclist. You seem to apply the same logic of tactics as Michael Boogerd

Not sure that really makes sense. Oomen did beat Valverde at the finish after all. You never know how everyone is feeling at the end of a race like Liege - if you've got two riders at the end you might as well use one to try to optimize the result of the other. And a rider, even on the limit, could always sneak away like Valgren did at Amstel.

Oomen had nothing left: the only reason he beat Valverde is because Valverde basically stopped. There was no way that a spent dumoulin could have helped the chase, and even if he had Oomen would've been dropped by Gasparotto, Bardet, Woods, Pozzovivo, Alaphilippe etc.

I don't buy that. If you have two riders in a reduced group then one of them should be dedicated to helping the other. Same goes for Bahrain and Mitchelton at the end. Neither Dumoulin nor Oomen did anything to help the other one get the best possible result - whether that is fighting for the win or something else. Bahrain and Mitchelton probably even more guilty because they had genuine contenders for the win, but still the lack a coherent plan from these teams is in stark contrast to how the likes of Quickstep and Astana have ridden this year. And it's no surprise which teams have ended up winning most races.

What a strange post - Haig worked over and over again for Kreuziger - Haig was still leading that group until 400 metres to go.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

You may be talking and talking again but.. we have just finished spring classics.. with the great defeat of Movistar... and Sky.
But Sky will get palmares in GT, and Movistar will not.

Actually I agree with this. After this disaster of the Ardennes, I fully expect to see them completely and totally implode in the Tour. They are going to be an abject disaster. I also will be surprised if they don't loose at least a minute and a half in the TTT to Sky and BMC.

I reckon it will be +2 minutes.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Re: Re:

No way Dumoulin or Oomen would work for a top 10 place or to help Valverde/Alaphilippe to the finish when they know they can't win themselves anymore. Glad you are not teamleader or cyclist. You seem to apply the same logic of tactics as Michael Boogerd

Not sure that really makes sense. Oomen did beat Valverde at the finish after all. You never know how everyone is feeling at the end of a race like Liege - if you've got two riders at the end you might as well use one to try to optimize the result of the other. And a rider, even on the limit, could always sneak away like Valgren did at Amstel.

Oomen had nothing left: the only reason he beat Valverde is because Valverde basically stopped. There was no way that a spent dumoulin could have helped the chase, and even if he had Oomen would've been dropped by Gasparotto, Bardet, Woods, Pozzovivo, Alaphilippe etc.

I don't buy that. If you have two riders in a reduced group then one of them should be dedicated to helping the other. Same goes for Bahrain and Mitchelton at the end. Neither Dumoulin nor Oomen did anything to help the other one get the best possible result - whether that is fighting for the win or something else. Bahrain and Mitchelton probably even more guilty because they had genuine contenders for the win, but still the lack a coherent plan from these teams is in stark contrast to how the likes of Quickstep and Astana have ridden this year. And it's no surprise which teams have ended up winning most races.

And once again you are wrong. Dumoulin helped Oomen chase back to the group before Ans. Because both Oomen and Dumoulin were dropped on Saint Nicolas. Dumoulin sacrificed himself for Oomen to bring him bnack to that group.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

Movistar just proved that they are not even close to as strong of a team as they have been the last several years. The exodus of riders over the past two years is showing. I have a feeling the team is going to implode completely at the Tour. They've had too many very good riders leave and it's really showing.

Turns out having a mid-table budget but top-table talent has its negatives. To buy in another top climbing talent, they've sacrificed far too many experienced rouleurs and helpers. There aren't many guys with the power to properly shepherd the leaders and those there are are having to be spread too thinly to be 100% effective. Barbero isn't strong enough to play the old role Rojas and Lobato could in the same scale of competition, and most of their domestiques for the rolling to flat terrain are inexperienced guys like Bico and Carretero, on the wind-down like Bennati or simply not that strong, like Arcas, and their main guys who ARE good enough are Sütterlin and Oliveira, the latter of which is injured.

Sepúlveda and Valls can cover the lower slopes domestique side of things and Sepúlveda has decent flat power too, but while they perhaps cover the loss of the Herrada brothers, there's still the Izagirres who take some serious replacing. All their best prospects are guys like Soler and Carapaz who fall into the same categories of rider as their existing leaders.

Here's their bigger problems a bunch of riders who have left over the last two years have said they were done dealing with Quintana so they weren't keeping them no matter what. They haven't been able to replace the riders they've lost. Not just the Herrada and Izagirre brothers, but also Sutherland, Castroviejo is a huge loss (along with Malori), Dowsett, Labato, and there were several others as well. Actually at this point I don't think even Valverde can keep this team from imploding at the Tour this summer. It is going to be interesting to see just how badly they implode, but it's going to happen.

What are you talking about? what does Quintana now has to do with Valverde losing LBL???
Come on, Valverde cannot win them all!

Quintana is a large part of the reason for the mass exodus of riders on this team. Thus Valverde not having the teammates he needs for LBL and the Ardennes in general. That is what Quintana has to do with Valverde loosing both LBL AND Fleche Wallone.

As other have said, it is lame to blame Valverde's loss on the rider that wasn't even here. Not even Unzue would go to that extreme.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

You may be talking and talking again but.. we have just finished spring classics.. with the great defeat of Movistar... and Sky.
But Sky will get palmares in GT, and Movistar will not.

Actually I agree with this. After this disaster of the Ardennes, I fully expect to see them completely and totally implode in the Tour. They are going to be an abject disaster. I also will be surprised if they don't loose at least a minute and a half in the TTT to Sky and BMC.

I reckon it will be +2 minutes.

With what I haven't seen from this team this year, that would not shock me at all. If that does happen their Tour is over long before the cobbled stage. If that happens the only one of their GC riders with any hope of gaining time back on the cobbles is Valverde. Quintana and Landa could both loose another 30 seconds to a minute on that stage. Now if Valverde was serious two years ago about wanting to go stage hunting in the Tour and still has that mindset, he would be better off NOT trying to get back into GC contention on the cobbled stage. If he's down far enough time wise the other teams would give him some freedom to get stage hunting later. If that happens, I could actually see him and Landa doing just that.

 

[RedheadDane]

Hmm... I've become overly expectant by the spring the Danes have been having.
A few years ago tenth would've been really cool, now it's just "Meh!"

Bahrein probably wanted to catch Jungels which is why they didn't let pozzo chase him on the flat

The best post in this thread. :lol:

He's learned how to sprint, who's to say he hasn't also learned to chase on the flat?

Of course there's still the issue of not really providing much wind cover for the person behind him...

 

[Blanco]

To the one that posted Jack Haig still worked with 400m to go - That half a km on Cote de Ans were only time Jack Haig worked at the front!

 

[Robert5091]

Chapeau Bob Jungels & QS - did it again.

 

[Kwibus]

Re:

To the one that posted Jack Haig still worked with 400m to go - That half a km on Cote de Ans were only time Jack Haig worked at the front!

He also chased down some attacks in chase group to make the chase kept on dying.... instead of pulling or attacking themselves.
Usually mitchelton is pretty solid regarding tactics. Today they messed up. Actually pre race Haig said that his task was to make sure Kreuziger didnt have to do a thing until the last 2km, which is allready stupid since Kreuziger needs to attack before the final 2km.

Kreuziger rode invisible which is a shame for an attacker like him.

 

[Frankschleck]

Re: Re:

To the one that posted Jack Haig still worked with 400m to go - That half a km on Cote de Ans were only time Jack Haig worked at the front!

He also chased down some attacks in chase group to make the chase kept on dying.... instead of pulling or attacking themselves.
Usually mitchelton is pretty solid regarding tactics. Today they messed up. Actually pre race Haig said that his task was to make sure Kreuziger didnt have to do a thing until the last 2km, which is allready stupid since Kreuziger needs to attack before the final 2km.

Kreuziger rode invisible which is a shame for an attacker like him.

agreed. Kreuziger derserved to lose with those tactics. He was way to confident after Fleche and thought he could play with Allaphaillpe and Valverde. dumb tactics.

 

[rick james]

Pathetic race, the peloton is starting to piss me off

 

[Valv.Piti]

Some random observations:

- Nieves first race back and gets 42th. What a class rider, great for Orica and for the Giro where they will turn up with a top-notch team. They could be the team to animate the race if Chaves feels well.
- Also related to the Giro, Poels is looking pretty weak. I doubt he will be great at least the 2 first weeks, but Froome also really only needs him from stage 14 (Zonc) and onwards. I think its a good sign tho, especially because Rosa and Cruz are very up and down climbers.
- Formolo is ready to make his big breakthrough in the Giro this year.
- Quick Step is by far the best team in the world in 2018, even after the departure of Kittel and Martin among others. Great team which is really easy to root for, most of their riders are pretty likeable (who doesn't like Jungels for example?). Thats without Gav. Jungels could surprise in the Tour, but look out for Enric Mas in the Vuelta as well. With Gaviria, Alaphilippe and Jungels in the Tour they could be quite interesting to follow there as well - all could get a breakthrough!
- Betancur needs to get this *** together for the Giro.....
- Sky is having a downright horrible spring, but good to see Henao being somewhat respectable again.

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

Some random observations:

- Nieves first race back and gets 42th. What a class rider, great for Orica and for the Giro where they will turn up with a top-notch team. They could be the team to animate the race if Chaves feels well.
- Also related to the Giro, Poels is looking pretty weak. I doubt he will be great at least the 2 first weeks, but Froome also really only needs him from stage 14 (Zonc) and onwards. I think its a good sign tho, especially because Rosa and Cruz are very up and down climbers.
- Formolo is ready to make his big breakthrough in the Giro this year.
- Quick Step is by far the best team in the world in 2018, even after the departure of Kittel and Martin among others. Great team which is really easy to root for, most of their riders are pretty likeable (who doesn't like Jungels for example?). Thats without Gav. Jungels could surprise in the Tour, but look out for Enric Mas in the Vuelta as well. With Gaviria, Alaphilippe and Jungels in the Tour they could be quite interesting to follow there as well - all could get a breakthrough!
- Betancur needs to get this **** together for the Giro.....
- Sky is having a downright horrible spring, but good to see Henao being somewhat respectable again.

- Jelle Vanendert showcased the total pointlessness of the Saint Nicolas. Gets a big gap there, gets overtaken by 10 other dudes in Ans.

 

[yaco]

Re:

To the one that posted Jack Haig still worked with 400m to go - That half a km on Cote de Ans were only time Jack Haig worked at the front!

Haig did most of his work on the climbs - You don't have to work just on the flat.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

To the one that posted Jack Haig still worked with 400m to go - That half a km on Cote de Ans were only time Jack Haig worked at the front!

He also chased down some attacks in chase group to make the chase kept on dying.... instead of pulling or attacking themselves.
Usually mitchelton is pretty solid regarding tactics. Today they messed up. Actually pre race Haig said that his task was to make sure Kreuziger didnt have to do a thing until the last 2km, which is allready stupid since Kreuziger needs to attack before the final 2km.

Kreuziger rode invisible which is a shame for an attacker like him.

Is it possible Kreuziger didn't have the legs too attack ? - Seems very obvious as Kreuziger isn't going to win in a sprint - Haig was protecting his leader which is what is expected, so whether that it is until 2 or 20km to go is irreleavant - Haig's main role was to neutralise any attacks especially in the last 60 kms - It's simple that Kreuziger wasn't good enough on the day.

 

[yaco]

Good summary by Valv Piti - Nieve is riding the Romandie this week but have to think he will be under-done for the Giro - Time will tell.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

To the one that posted Jack Haig still worked with 400m to go - That half a km on Cote de Ans were only time Jack Haig worked at the front!

He also chased down some attacks in chase group to make the chase kept on dying.... instead of pulling or attacking themselves.
Usually mitchelton is pretty solid regarding tactics. Today they messed up. Actually pre race Haig said that his task was to make sure Kreuziger didnt have to do a thing until the last 2km, which is allready stupid since Kreuziger needs to attack before the final 2km.

Kreuziger rode invisible which is a shame for an attacker like him.

That junk food scoffing yobbo Matt White is totally overrated as a DS, he just allows smart riders to have freedom. Mitchelton does have one of the very best in the business, but it’s not him.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re:

Some random observations:

- Nieves first race back and gets 42th. What a class rider, great for Orica and for the Giro where they will turn up with a top-notch team. They could be the team to animate the race if Chaves feels well.
- Also related to the Giro, Poels is looking pretty weak. I doubt he will be great at least the 2 first weeks, but Froome also really only needs him from stage 14 (Zonc) and onwards. I think its a good sign tho, especially because Rosa and Cruz are very up and down climbers.
- Formolo is ready to make his big breakthrough in the Giro this year.
- Quick Step is by far the best team in the world in 2018, even after the departure of Kittel and Martin among others. Great team which is really easy to root for, most of their riders are pretty likeable (who doesn't like Jungels for example?). Thats without Gav. Jungels could surprise in the Tour, but look out for Enric Mas in the Vuelta as well. With Gaviria, Alaphilippe and Jungels in the Tour they could be quite interesting to follow there as well - all could get a breakthrough!
- Betancur needs to get this **** together for the Giro.....
- Sky is having a downright horrible spring, but good to see Henao being somewhat respectable again.

enric mas is riding the giro, so watch out then already

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

To the one that posted Jack Haig still worked with 400m to go - That half a km on Cote de Ans were only time Jack Haig worked at the front!

He also chased down some attacks in chase group to make the chase kept on dying.... instead of pulling or attacking themselves.
Usually mitchelton is pretty solid regarding tactics. Today they messed up. Actually pre race Haig said that his task was to make sure Kreuziger didnt have to do a thing until the last 2km, which is allready stupid since Kreuziger needs to attack before the final 2km.

Kreuziger rode invisible which is a shame for an attacker like him.

Yep, pretty embarrassing finale by Sunweb, Mitchelton and Bahrain. All had riders spare and contributed nothing while Jungels extended his lead. However bad your legs are, you simply have to try to bring back the attacker at that stage if you have two riders in a reduced group.

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

To the one that posted Jack Haig still worked with 400m to go - That half a km on Cote de Ans were only time Jack Haig worked at the front!

He also chased down some attacks in chase group to make the chase kept on dying.... instead of pulling or attacking themselves.
Usually mitchelton is pretty solid regarding tactics. Today they messed up. Actually pre race Haig said that his task was to make sure Kreuziger didnt have to do a thing until the last 2km, which is allready stupid since Kreuziger needs to attack before the final 2km.

Kreuziger rode invisible which is a shame for an attacker like him.

Is it possible Kreuziger didn't have the legs too attack ? - Seems very obvious as Kreuziger isn't going to win in a sprint - Haig was protecting his leader which is what is expected, so whether that it is until 2 or 20km to go is irreleavant - Haig's main role was to neutralise any attacks especially in the last 60 kms - It's simple that Kreuziger wasn't good enough on the day.

Is Haig's role to neutralize attacks in the chasing group when Jungels is long gone? Or it is better to chase himself for his team leader? Maybe Kreuziger didn't had it today, but that doesn;t change the fact that they rode like two clowns today!

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

To the one that posted Jack Haig still worked with 400m to go - That half a km on Cote de Ans were only time Jack Haig worked at the front!

He also chased down some attacks in chase group to make the chase kept on dying.... instead of pulling or attacking themselves.
Usually mitchelton is pretty solid regarding tactics. Today they messed up. Actually pre race Haig said that his task was to make sure Kreuziger didnt have to do a thing until the last 2km, which is allready stupid since Kreuziger needs to attack before the final 2km.

Kreuziger rode invisible which is a shame for an attacker like him.

Yep, pretty embarrassing finale by Sunweb, Mitchelton and Bahrain. All had riders spare and contributed nothing while Jungels extended his lead. However bad your legs are, you simply have to try to bring back the attacker at that stage if you have two riders in a reduced group.

Seems like the tactics for most teams in the Ardennes this year was just ride against Valverde!

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

Some random observations:

- Nieves first race back and gets 42th. What a class rider, great for Orica and for the Giro where they will turn up with a top-notch team. They could be the team to animate the race if Chaves feels well.
- Also related to the Giro, Poels is looking pretty weak. I doubt he will be great at least the 2 first weeks, but Froome also really only needs him from stage 14 (Zonc) and onwards. I think its a good sign tho, especially because Rosa and Cruz are very up and down climbers.
- Formolo is ready to make his big breakthrough in the Giro this year.
- Quick Step is by far the best team in the world in 2018, even after the departure of Kittel and Martin among others. Great team which is really easy to root for, most of their riders are pretty likeable (who doesn't like Jungels for example?). Thats without Gav. Jungels could surprise in the Tour, but look out for Enric Mas in the Vuelta as well. With Gaviria, Alaphilippe and Jungels in the Tour they could be quite interesting to follow there as well - all could get a breakthrough!
- Betancur needs to get this **** together for the Giro.....
- Sky is having a downright horrible spring, but good to see Henao being somewhat respectable again.

enric mas is riding the giro, so watch out then already

Oh, I actually dind't know. Dunno why I assumed he just would ride the Vuelta again.. will he try to ride for the GC tho? I think he just postpone that for the Vuelta instead, thats also better suited for him, I think. The level is also higher in the Giro.

Can also add that I think Dumo did really well, he should be ready for the Giro. Very good performance. Im also surprised by Haig, that kid is really getting good.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

To the one that posted Jack Haig still worked with 400m to go - That half a km on Cote de Ans were only time Jack Haig worked at the front!

He also chased down some attacks in chase group to make the chase kept on dying.... instead of pulling or attacking themselves.
Usually mitchelton is pretty solid regarding tactics. Today they messed up. Actually pre race Haig said that his task was to make sure Kreuziger didnt have to do a thing until the last 2km, which is allready stupid since Kreuziger needs to attack before the final 2km.

Kreuziger rode invisible which is a shame for an attacker like him.

Yep, pretty embarrassing finale by Sunweb, Mitchelton and Bahrain. All had riders spare and contributed nothing while Jungels extended his lead. However bad your legs are, you simply have to try to bring back the attacker at that stage if you have two riders in a reduced group.

Seems like the tactics for most teams in the Ardennes this year was just ride against Valverde!

Yeah, which is fair enough for the most part. He was the big favourite. But at some point you have to focus on the rider who is TTing clear up the road.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

To the one that posted Jack Haig still worked with 400m to go - That half a km on Cote de Ans were only time Jack Haig worked at the front!

He also chased down some attacks in chase group to make the chase kept on dying.... instead of pulling or attacking themselves.
Usually mitchelton is pretty solid regarding tactics. Today they messed up. Actually pre race Haig said that his task was to make sure Kreuziger didnt have to do a thing until the last 2km, which is allready stupid since Kreuziger needs to attack before the final 2km.

Kreuziger rode invisible which is a shame for an attacker like him.

Yep, pretty embarrassing finale by Sunweb, Mitchelton and Bahrain. All had riders spare and contributed nothing while Jungels extended his lead. However bad your legs are, you simply have to try to bring back the attacker at that stage if you have two riders in a reduced group.

Seems like the tactics for most teams in the Ardennes this year was just ride against Valverde!

Yeah, which is fair enough for the most part. He was the big favourite. But at some point you have to focus on the rider who is TTing clear up the road.

To make it even more evident that you should actually pay attention to the rider up the road when the only rider you're paying attention to sits up and doesn't even bother to contest the finish at all and looks that not only did he give up on the race, but also lost interest in it. Which, in truth, I can't remember him ever doing before.