104TH LIÈGE-BASTOGNE-LIÈGE 1.UWT April 22nd, 2018

[HelloDolly]

Re: Re:

Valverde couldnt win becasue of his team ?? What ?

Firstly eveyrone on here spend all the time between races telling us what great riders Landa & Betencur are.. (he also had Amador who must be near peak for the Giro )
These guys are lauded every day of the week on here but now they cant (like Bardet or Woods or Pozzovivo) be near the end of a climbers classic ??? what bull

Give me a break ...you guys are so changeable

Landa and Amador & Betencur should have been there like the other climbers

But even if they were Valverde didnt have it today ...

First of all Betencur has NOT been very good this year. Also they do NOT have some of the top domestiques they've had the last two years due to a mass exodus of riders. Amador and Landa CANNOT do everything themselves.

No one is asking Amador & Landa to do everything but it would be nice like Astana or Baharin helpers they did something

 

[movingtarget]

Hopefully Dan Martin's luck changes soon. I agree about Jungels. Once the time gap reached 40 seconds I knew he wasn't coming back even though he lost half of that on the climb. He's a decent TT rider and he opened up the gap again over the hill.

 

[HelloDolly]

Whats the story with Zakarin, Barguil & Majka ..have they become invisible

 

[tobydawq]

Re:

Anyone who predicted a 1 Jungels 2 Woods 3 Bardet podium will be pretty rich now anyways. Unexpected

But is an unexcpected result a guarantee of a race having been entertaining?

To me, the Vuelta is the least interesting by far of the GTs because so many stages are decided by breakaways consisting of pretty anonymous riders.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

Another well executed race for Quickstep. The cracks for Movistar showed in the Giro last year. They didn't look good at all even though on paper they were much stronger than Dumoulin's team. I wonder if Valverde's past week is the beginning of an age related drop off or just the pattern of racing was too much for him ? Very nice win by Jungels. Bardet is also looking good in one day races.

No one will be beaten by him on a sprint . Furthermore, his cannot go away alone with his TT ability.
Bardet is a perfect breakaway partner.

Guys, just go away with him when Bardet attacks.

Well he needs an uphill finish to have any chance usually. But still he is trying hard.

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

No way Dumoulin or Oomen would work for a top 10 place or to help Valverde/Alaphilippe to the finish when they know they can't win themselves anymore. Glad you are not teamleader or cyclist. You seem to apply the same logic of tactics as Michael Boogerd

Not sure that really makes sense. Oomen did beat Valverde at the finish after all. You never know how everyone is feeling at the end of a race like Liege - if you've got two riders at the end you might as well use one to try to optimize the result of the other. And a rider, even on the limit, could always sneak away like Valgren did at Amstel.

Oomen had nothing left: the only reason he beat Valverde is because Valverde basically stopped. There was no way that a spent dumoulin could have helped the chase, and even if he had Oomen would've been dropped by Gasparotto, Bardet, Woods, Pozzovivo, Alaphilippe etc.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

Whats the story with Zakarin, Barguil & Majka ..have they become invisible

They usually are aren't they, at least until the grand tours start.

 

[Bot. Sky_Bot]

You may be talking and talking again but.. we have just finished spring classics.. with the great defeat of Movistar... and Sky.
But Sky will get palmares in GT, and Movistar will not.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

No way Dumoulin or Oomen would work for a top 10 place or to help Valverde/Alaphilippe to the finish when they know they can't win themselves anymore. Glad you are not teamleader or cyclist. You seem to apply the same logic of tactics as Michael Boogerd

Not sure that really makes sense. Oomen did beat Valverde at the finish after all. You never know how everyone is feeling at the end of a race like Liege - if you've got two riders at the end you might as well use one to try to optimize the result of the other. And a rider, even on the limit, could always sneak away like Valgren did at Amstel.

Oomen had nothing left: the only reason he beat Valverde is because Valverde basically stopped. There was no way that a spent dumoulin could have helped the chase, and even if he had Oomen would've been dropped by Gasparotto, Bardet, Woods, Pozzovivo, Alaphilippe etc.

I don't buy that. If you have two riders in a reduced group then one of them should be dedicated to helping the other. Same goes for Bahrain and Mitchelton at the end. Neither Dumoulin nor Oomen did anything to help the other one get the best possible result - whether that is fighting for the win or something else. Bahrain and Mitchelton probably even more guilty because they had genuine contenders for the win, but still the lack a coherent plan from these teams is in stark contrast to how the likes of Quickstep and Astana have ridden this year. And it's no surprise which teams have ended up winning most races.

 

[Koronin]

Re:

You may be talking and talking again but.. we have just finished spring classics.. with the great defeat of Movistar... and Sky.
But Sky will get palmares in GT, and Movistar will not.

Actually I agree with this. After this disaster of the Ardennes, I fully expect to see them completely and totally implode in the Tour. They are going to be an abject disaster. I also will be surprised if they don't loose at least a minute and a half in the TTT to Sky and BMC.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

No way Dumoulin or Oomen would work for a top 10 place or to help Valverde/Alaphilippe to the finish when they know they can't win themselves anymore. Glad you are not teamleader or cyclist. You seem to apply the same logic of tactics as Michael Boogerd

Not sure that really makes sense. Oomen did beat Valverde at the finish after all. You never know how everyone is feeling at the end of a race like Liege - if you've got two riders at the end you might as well use one to try to optimize the result of the other. And a rider, even on the limit, could always sneak away like Valgren did at Amstel.

Oomen had nothing left: the only reason he beat Valverde is because Valverde basically stopped. There was no way that a spent dumoulin could have helped the chase, and even if he had Oomen would've been dropped by Gasparotto, Bardet, Woods, Pozzovivo, Alaphilippe etc.

I don't buy that. If you have two riders in a reduced group then one of them should be dedicated to helping the other. Same goes for Bahrain and Mitchelton at the end. Neither Dumoulin nor Oomen did anything to help the other one get the best possible result - whether that is fighting for the win or something else. Bahrain and Mitchelton probably even more guilty because they had genuine contenders for the win, but still the lack a coherent plan from these teams is in stark contrast to how the likes of Quickstep and Astana have ridden this year. And it's no surprise which teams have ended up winning most races.

Valverde was the top favorite, he should've done all the work himself (especially because the other big favorite had a team-mate up ahead), like Boonen and Cancellara have done many times in the past, but then again, Valverde isn't nearly as good as those two.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

No way Dumoulin or Oomen would work for a top 10 place or to help Valverde/Alaphilippe to the finish when they know they can't win themselves anymore. Glad you are not teamleader or cyclist. You seem to apply the same logic of tactics as Michael Boogerd

Not sure that really makes sense. Oomen did beat Valverde at the finish after all. You never know how everyone is feeling at the end of a race like Liege - if you've got two riders at the end you might as well use one to try to optimize the result of the other. And a rider, even on the limit, could always sneak away like Valgren did at Amstel.

Oomen had nothing left: the only reason he beat Valverde is because Valverde basically stopped. There was no way that a spent dumoulin could have helped the chase, and even if he had Oomen would've been dropped by Gasparotto, Bardet, Woods, Pozzovivo, Alaphilippe etc.

I don't buy that. If you have two riders in a reduced group then one of them should be dedicated to helping the other. Same goes for Bahrain and Mitchelton at the end. Neither Dumoulin nor Oomen did anything to help the other one get the best possible result - whether that is fighting for the win or something else. Bahrain and Mitchelton probably even more guilty because they had genuine contenders for the win, but still the lack a coherent plan from these teams is in stark contrast to how the likes of Quickstep and Astana have ridden this year. And it's no surprise which teams have ended up winning most races.

Bahrein probably wanted to catch Jungels which is why they didn't let pozzo chase him on the flat

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

No way Dumoulin or Oomen would work for a top 10 place or to help Valverde/Alaphilippe to the finish when they know they can't win themselves anymore. Glad you are not teamleader or cyclist. You seem to apply the same logic of tactics as Michael Boogerd

Not sure that really makes sense. Oomen did beat Valverde at the finish after all. You never know how everyone is feeling at the end of a race like Liege - if you've got two riders at the end you might as well use one to try to optimize the result of the other. And a rider, even on the limit, could always sneak away like Valgren did at Amstel.

Oomen had nothing left: the only reason he beat Valverde is because Valverde basically stopped. There was no way that a spent dumoulin could have helped the chase, and even if he had Oomen would've been dropped by Gasparotto, Bardet, Woods, Pozzovivo, Alaphilippe etc.

I don't buy that. If you have two riders in a reduced group then one of them should be dedicated to helping the other. Same goes for Bahrain and Mitchelton at the end. Neither Dumoulin nor Oomen did anything to help the other one get the best possible result - whether that is fighting for the win or something else. Bahrain and Mitchelton probably even more guilty because they had genuine contenders for the win, but still the lack a coherent plan from these teams is in stark contrast to how the likes of Quickstep and Astana have ridden this year. And it's no surprise which teams have ended up winning most races.

Bahrein probably wanted to catch Jungels which is why they didn't let pozzo chase him on the flat

:lol: good point!

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

Whats the story with Zakarin, Barguil & Majka ..have they become invisible

They usually are aren't they, at least until the grand tours start.

Kamaz?!

He's got a pretty decent one-week race palmarès including GC top 10s in San Luís, País Vasco, Pologne, Algarve, Paris-Nice (twice), Catalunya and Romandie, and a win at the latter as well. Isn't he targeting the Tour this year? After doing Giro-Vuelta last year presumably he's not supposed to be in such strong early season form as the last two years, or perhaps he's just not having a good year.

 

[tobydawq]

Re: Re:

No way Dumoulin or Oomen would work for a top 10 place or to help Valverde/Alaphilippe to the finish when they know they can't win themselves anymore. Glad you are not teamleader or cyclist. You seem to apply the same logic of tactics as Michael Boogerd

Not sure that really makes sense. Oomen did beat Valverde at the finish after all. You never know how everyone is feeling at the end of a race like Liege - if you've got two riders at the end you might as well use one to try to optimize the result of the other. And a rider, even on the limit, could always sneak away like Valgren did at Amstel.

Oomen had nothing left: the only reason he beat Valverde is because Valverde basically stopped. There was no way that a spent dumoulin could have helped the chase, and even if he had Oomen would've been dropped by Gasparotto, Bardet, Woods, Pozzovivo, Alaphilippe etc.

I don't buy that. If you have two riders in a reduced group then one of them should be dedicated to helping the other. Same goes for Bahrain and Mitchelton at the end. Neither Dumoulin nor Oomen did anything to help the other one get the best possible result - whether that is fighting for the win or something else. Bahrain and Mitchelton probably even more guilty because they had genuine contenders for the win, but still the lack a coherent plan from these teams is in stark contrast to how the likes of Quickstep and Astana have ridden this year. And it's no surprise which teams have ended up winning most races.

Valverde was the top favorite, he should've done all the work himself (especially because the other big favorite had a team-mate up ahead), like Boonen and Cancellara have done many times in the past, but then again, Valverde isn't nearly as good as those two.

No he shouldn't, and no they didn't (except MSR 2012, lol) and yes he is.

 

[Leinster]

Quick Step won't send riders in a break. They have no riders who can win from a break.

Any of Serry, Jungels or Schachman could win from a break if the chase drops the ball. And then there’s the guy who won Flanders last year with a 50km solo. Quick Step will send riders in the breaks.

Alaphilippe just won Flèche in pretty convincing fashion, so it would be rather atypical for Quick Step go in long breaks (unless it's to sabotage them) instead of controlling the race and keeping as much guys around Ala as possible in case a dangerous break goes clear on/after Redoute or on/after RaF.

Movistar tried controlling the whole race for Valverde in ‘16, and it big them in the **** when Valverde got completely isolated well before the finale. QuickStep won’t do it with one less rider. If they put Jungels or Serry in a break, they don’t need to chase and Ala can just follow wheels until the catch.

For a template of how to win, see Hesjedal’s effort for Dan Martin in 2013. Jungels could do that for Alaf. But also Dumoulin could do the same job for Matthews.

Ahem.

I think this makes me the only one on here to even mention Jungels on this thread pre-race.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

No way Dumoulin or Oomen would work for a top 10 place or to help Valverde/Alaphilippe to the finish when they know they can't win themselves anymore. Glad you are not teamleader or cyclist. You seem to apply the same logic of tactics as Michael Boogerd

Not sure that really makes sense. Oomen did beat Valverde at the finish after all. You never know how everyone is feeling at the end of a race like Liege - if you've got two riders at the end you might as well use one to try to optimize the result of the other. And a rider, even on the limit, could always sneak away like Valgren did at Amstel.

Oomen had nothing left: the only reason he beat Valverde is because Valverde basically stopped. There was no way that a spent dumoulin could have helped the chase, and even if he had Oomen would've been dropped by Gasparotto, Bardet, Woods, Pozzovivo, Alaphilippe etc.

I don't buy that. If you have two riders in a reduced group then one of them should be dedicated to helping the other. Same goes for Bahrain and Mitchelton at the end. Neither Dumoulin nor Oomen did anything to help the other one get the best possible result - whether that is fighting for the win or something else. Bahrain and Mitchelton probably even more guilty because they had genuine contenders for the win, but still the lack a coherent plan from these teams is in stark contrast to how the likes of Quickstep and Astana have ridden this year. And it's no surprise which teams have ended up winning most races.

Valverde was the top favorite, he should've done all the work himself (especially because the other big favorite had a team-mate up ahead), like Boonen and Cancellara have done many times in the past, but then again, Valverde isn't nearly as good as those two.

No he shouldn't, and no they didn't (except MSR 2012, lol) and yes he is.[/quote]


And he NEVER has and he NEVER will. He's also flat out stated in the past he's more than willing to give up wins if others will not work with him. That IS who he is and you don't have to like it or how he races.

 

[Flamin]

Quick Step won't send riders in a break. They have no riders who can win from a break.

Any of Serry, Jungels or Schachman could win from a break if the chase drops the ball. And then there’s the guy who won Flanders last year with a 50km solo. Quick Step will send riders in the breaks.

Alaphilippe just won Flèche in pretty convincing fashion, so it would be rather atypical for Quick Step go in long breaks (unless it's to sabotage them) instead of controlling the race and keeping as much guys around Ala as possible in case a dangerous break goes clear on/after Redoute or on/after RaF.

Movistar tried controlling the whole race for Valverde in ‘16, and it big them in the **** when Valverde got completely isolated well before the finale. QuickStep won’t do it with one less rider. If they put Jungels or Serry in a break, they don’t need to chase and Ala can just follow wheels until the catch.

For a template of how to win, see Hesjedal’s effort for Dan Martin in 2013. Jungels could do that for Alaf. But also Dumoulin could do the same job for Matthews.

Ahem.

I think this makes me the only one on here to even mention Jungels on this thread pre-race.

I thought we were talking about long/early breaks, not an attack after RaF (and Jungels didn't even attack). But good call anyway

 

[Koronin]

One more note on Valverde. He said after the race that he started cramping badly about halfway through the race. Now this still does NOT excuse the team for their disaster nor does it explain his just giving up on the race, but there is that.

 

[Anderis]

Re: Re:

Bahrein probably wanted to catch Jungels which is why they didn't let pozzo chase him on the flat

The best post in this thread. :lol:

 

[Leinster]

Ahem.

I think this makes me the only one on here to even mention Jungels on this thread pre-race.

I thought we were talking about long/early breaks, not an attack after RaF (and Jungels didn't even attack). But good call anyway

He was on the front solo for more than half of the race's entire 35km route, I think that counts as a long-range/early attack.

 

[Bolder]

Re: Re:

Another well executed race for Quickstep. The cracks for Movistar showed in the Giro last year. They didn't look good at all even though on paper they were much stronger than Dumoulin's team. I wonder if Valverde's past week is the beginning of an age related drop off or just the pattern of racing was too much for him ? Very nice win by Jungels. Bardet is also looking good in one day races.

No one will be beaten by him on a sprint . Furthermore, his cannot go away alone with his TT ability.
Bardet is a perfect breakaway partner.

Guys, just go away with him when Bardet attacks.

Well he needs an uphill finish to have any chance usually. But still he is trying hard.

Yes, Bardet had a great effort today and in Siena. He looks so frail but he's pretty tough.

 

[Blanco]

Re:

You may be talking and talking again but.. we have just finished spring classics.. with the great defeat of Movistar... and Sky.
But Sky will get palmares in GT, and Movistar will not.

It might be vice-versa

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

You may be talking and talking again but.. we have just finished spring classics.. with the great defeat of Movistar... and Sky.
But Sky will get palmares in GT, and Movistar will not.

It might be vice-versa

It's also likely and maybe even more likely, neither one gets any results.

 

[Akuryo]

Re: Re:

You may be talking and talking again but.. we have just finished spring classics.. with the great defeat of Movistar... and Sky.
But Sky will get palmares in GT, and Movistar will not.

It might be vice-versa

It's also likely and maybe even more likely, neither one gets any results.

With Quicksteps run of form I would not rule out Jungels for the Tour and Mas for Vuelta success.
But honestly, with all kidding aside, if both reach the top 10 they could actually win the World Tour this year. For the last 6 years it was always Sky or Movistar...