104TH LIÈGE-BASTOGNE-LIÈGE 1.UWT April 22nd, 2018

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Re: Re:

Brullnux said:
DFA123 said:
Cance > TheRest said:
Quickstep has really shown how to properly use superiority in numbers this season. Chapeau
It's served as a nice reminder in one day races that cycling really is a team sport. A lot of focus on individuals like of GVA, Valverde and Sagan in one day races. But Quickstep end up sweeping nearly everything, despite losing their number one cobbled rider, number one hilly classics rider, and top sprinter from last season.
Boonen wasn't their best cobbled rider, and Martin wasn't (looking to the future) their best hilly rider.
Well obviously; that's kind of the point. They weren't their best riders, but were often treated as such. And given a higher status than perhaps they should have done. Now, with a more egalitarian structure, loads of different riders are winning the big races.
 
Sep 6, 2016
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Re:

Valv.Piti said:
I just feel that Nibali is an overrated rider, an overachiever. I still don't know how he managed to win San Remo, but I guess thats what makes him that good. Not at all surprised with his poor performance here.

He will probably hit his peak shape and then win TdF anyways :D
If someone consistently overachieves, are they really overachieving or just opportunistic?
 
Valverde was incredible in Amstel, but obviously lacked a little something here, but him closing a few big gaps and animating the pursuiters after Faucons also has something to do with that. Could probably have podiumed had he played it as conservatively as Kreuziger, but he rode for the win and thats that. Think its a decent performance, but I really doubt he could have outsprinted Alahpilippe like he has done with Martin, Rodriguez, Moreno etc. in the past.
 
Boring until 20km. Then very open and interesting race.

1st attack was the deciding one however. Jungels was really strong. Deserved winner.
Valverde too isolated. Alaphilippe didn't have that absolute top day either because he couldn't follow Vanendert.

Sunweb was just barely there, Oomen and Dumoulin didn't have anything extra's. Mitchelton Scott with 2 guys also no extra's. Astana 2 guys but also no extra's
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
Brullnux said:
DFA123 said:
Cance > TheRest said:
Quickstep has really shown how to properly use superiority in numbers this season. Chapeau
It's served as a nice reminder in one day races that cycling really is a team sport. A lot of focus on individuals like of GVA, Valverde and Sagan in one day races. But Quickstep end up sweeping nearly everything, despite losing their number one cobbled rider, number one hilly classics rider, and top sprinter from last season.
Boonen wasn't their best cobbled rider, and Martin wasn't (looking to the future) their best hilly rider.
Well obviously; that's kind of the point. They weren't their best riders, but were often treated as such. And given a higher status than perhaps they should have done. Now, with a more egalitarian structure, loads of different riders are winning the big races.
Oh I now see what you meant by number one. I thought you meant in terms of ability.
 
Dekker_Tifosi said:
Boring until 20km. Then very open and interesting race.

1st attack was the deciding one however. Jungels was really strong. Deserved winner.
Valverde too isolated. Alaphilippe didn't have that absolute top day either because he couldn't follow Vanendert.

Sunweb was just barely there, Oomen and Dumoulin didn't have anything extra's. Mitchelton Scott with 2 guys also no extra's. Astana 2 guys but also no extra's
Yeah circumstances were very favourable for the attack
 
Re: Re:

Velolover2 said:
Koronin said:
Movistar just proved that they are not even close to as strong of a team as they have been the last several years. The exodus of riders over the past two years is showing. I have a feeling the team is going to implode completely at the Tour. They've had too many very good riders leave and it's really showing.
It's the lack of good rouleurs that makes them lose. They still have a great teams for the mountain stages but not for the hills or classics anymore. Losing Castroviejo, Malori (unfortunately) and Dowsett makes them less competitive.
I think they just lost because their leader, while still good, was not good enough this year. Even if Valverde would had two team-mates with him when Jungels took off, he wouldn't have won this race. He just didn't have the legs.
 
Re: Re:

Durden93 said:
Valv.Piti said:
I just feel that Nibali is an overrated rider, an overachiever. I still don't know how he managed to win San Remo, but I guess thats what makes him that good. Not at all surprised with his poor performance here.

He will probably hit his peak shape and then win TdF anyways :D
If someone consistently overachieves, are they really overachieving or just opportunistic?
I think he overachieves by being opportunistic AND getting a few lucky breaks during his career
 
Re:

Valv.Piti said:
Valverde was incredible in Amstel, but obviously lacked a little something here, but him closing a few big gaps and animating the pursuiters after Faucons also has something to do with that. Could probably have podiumed had he played it as conservatively as Kreuziger, but he rode for the win and thats that. Think its a decent performance, but I really doubt he could have outsprinted Alahpilippe like he has done with Martin, Rodriguez, Moreno etc. in the past.
Movistar's biggest problem right now is their lack of rouleurs. No one to chase for him.

Landa isn't designed to lead a peloton, he is an aggressive climber.
 
Re: Re:

Koronin said:
Serpentin said:
Koronin said:
Movistar just proved that they are not even close to as strong of a team as they have been the last several years. The exodus of riders over the past two years is showing. I have a feeling the team is going to implode completely at the Tour. They've had too many very good riders leave and it's really showing.
Nah, Betancur and Anacona hasn`t reached previous years level.

Doesn't matter. They've had around 8-10 very good domestiques both climbers and roulers leave the past two years with a huge number leaving after last season. This is the result of that. Truthfully some of the ones they lost are much better than Anacona or Betancur.
Anacona did his job.
 
Re: Re:

Brullnux said:
DFA123 said:
Brullnux said:
DFA123 said:
Cance > TheRest said:
Quickstep has really shown how to properly use superiority in numbers this season. Chapeau
It's served as a nice reminder in one day races that cycling really is a team sport. A lot of focus on individuals like of GVA, Valverde and Sagan in one day races. But Quickstep end up sweeping nearly everything, despite losing their number one cobbled rider, number one hilly classics rider, and top sprinter from last season.
Boonen wasn't their best cobbled rider, and Martin wasn't (looking to the future) their best hilly rider.
Well obviously; that's kind of the point. They weren't their best riders, but were often treated as such. And given a higher status than perhaps they should have done. Now, with a more egalitarian structure, loads of different riders are winning the big races.
Oh I now see what you meant by number one. I thought you meant in terms of ability.
Yeah, Boonen in particular was holding them back for years imo. He would almost never sacrificed himself for the team in the way that Gilbert or Stybar do all the time.
 
Dekker_Tifosi said:
Boring until 20km. Then very open and interesting race.

1st attack was the deciding one however. Jungels was really strong. Deserved winner.
Valverde too isolated. Alaphilippe didn't have that absolute top day either because he couldn't follow Vanendert.

Sunweb was just barely there, Oomen and Dumoulin didn't have anything extra's. Mitchelton Scott with 2 guys also no extra's. Astana 2 guys but also no extra's
Open? It wasn't open at all. It was decided when Wellens went off the front at the top of the Roche-aux-Faucons and Jungels got half a minute. From there, it was a race for second.
 
Re: Re:

Libertine Seguros said:
Koronin said:
Movistar just proved that they are not even close to as strong of a team as they have been the last several years. The exodus of riders over the past two years is showing. I have a feeling the team is going to implode completely at the Tour. They've had too many very good riders leave and it's really showing.
Turns out having a mid-table budget but top-table talent has its negatives. To buy in another top climbing talent, they've sacrificed far too many experienced rouleurs and helpers. There aren't many guys with the power to properly shepherd the leaders and those there are are having to be spread too thinly to be 100% effective. Barbero isn't strong enough to play the old role Rojas and Lobato could in the same scale of competition, and most of their domestiques for the rolling to flat terrain are inexperienced guys like Bico and Carretero, on the wind-down like Bennati or simply not that strong, like Arcas, and their main guys who ARE good enough are Sütterlin and Oliveira, the latter of which is injured.

Sepúlveda and Valls can cover the lower slopes domestique side of things and Sepúlveda has decent flat power too, but while they perhaps cover the loss of the Herrada brothers, there's still the Izagirres who take some serious replacing. All their best prospects are guys like Soler and Carapaz who fall into the same categories of rider as their existing leaders.

Here's their bigger problems a bunch of riders who have left over the last two years have said they were done dealing with Quintana so they weren't keeping them no matter what. They haven't been able to replace the riders they've lost. Not just the Herrada and Izagirre brothers, but also Sutherland, Castroviejo is a huge loss (along with Malori), Dowsett, Labato, and there were several others as well. Actually at this point I don't think even Valverde can keep this team from imploding at the Tour this summer. It is going to be interesting to see just how badly they implode, but it's going to happen.
 
Re: Re:

Dekker_Tifosi said:
Red Rick said:
"What Jungels can do, shouldn't you be able to do that too?"

"Haha not today"

Tom Dumoulin
He was better than last year. And shaping up good for the Giro. Oomen good too.
If Dumoulin ever targets this race, he can win. Obviously not in peak shape today (and with reason) but he has the skillset.

Formolo surprised me, he should try it more often
 
Re: Re:

Dekker_Tifosi said:
Red Rick said:
"What Jungels can do, shouldn't you be able to do that too?"

"Haha not today"

Tom Dumoulin
He was better than last year. And shaping up good for the Giro. Oomen good too.
Did they ask him why neither Dumoulin or Oomen worked to try to close the gap to Jungels, despite both of them being in the chasing group?
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
Velolover2 said:
Koronin said:
Movistar just proved that they are not even close to as strong of a team as they have been the last several years. The exodus of riders over the past two years is showing. I have a feeling the team is going to implode completely at the Tour. They've had too many very good riders leave and it's really showing.
It's the lack of good rouleurs that makes them lose. They still have a great teams for the mountain stages but not for the hills or classics anymore. Losing Castroviejo, Malori (unfortunately) and Dowsett makes them less competitive.
I think they just lost because their leader, while still good, was not good enough this year. Even if Valverde would had two team-mates with him when Jungels took off, he wouldn't have won this race. He just didn't have the legs.
True enough. I think it was a combination of those two factors. His attack on the Falcons was done out of panic and the lack of team mates rather than "animating the race" as some people like to think.
 
Re: Re:

Escarabajo said:
Koronin said:
Serpentin said:
Koronin said:
Movistar just proved that they are not even close to as strong of a team as they have been the last several years. The exodus of riders over the past two years is showing. I have a feeling the team is going to implode completely at the Tour. They've had too many very good riders leave and it's really showing.
Nah, Betancur and Anacona hasn`t reached previous years level.

Doesn't matter. They've had around 8-10 very good domestiques both climbers and roulers leave the past two years with a huge number leaving after last season. This is the result of that. Truthfully some of the ones they lost are much better than Anacona or Betancur.
Anacona did his job.
Yes Aanacon did his job. He's just not as good as many of the guys they lost.
 
Jul 16, 2010
17,455
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Re: Re:

Valv.Piti said:
Durden93 said:
Valv.Piti said:
I just feel that Nibali is an overrated rider, an overachiever. I still don't know how he managed to win San Remo, but I guess thats what makes him that good. Not at all surprised with his poor performance here.

He will probably hit his peak shape and then win TdF anyways :D
If someone consistently overachieves, are they really overachieving or just opportunistic?
I think he overachieves by being opportunistic AND getting a few lucky breaks during his career
Valverde can only win when all teams work for him. What a weakling, he put in one dig and already gets dropped on his favorite climb lol. Hopefully they reduce team size to just 6 riders next year. The final 20km was pretty good this year, that's at least much better than last few years.
 
Mar 22, 2011
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Re: Re:

Rollthedice said:
Valv.Piti said:
I just feel that Nibali is an overrated rider, an overachiever. I still don't know how he managed to win San Remo, but I guess thats what makes him that good. Not at all surprised with his poor performance here.

He will probably hit his peak shape and then win TdF anyways :D
Now you understand how these things work. 2014, Oman Green mountain 16, overall 12, LBL 30. This year Oman Green mountain 16, overall 12, LBL 32. Like clockwork.
Good observation. Without a super Foorme, Nibali put his bet into TDF this year.
With some comments of overrated, Nibali should be an underrated rider..
He just won it when everyone think otherwise.
 
Re: Re:

Velolover2 said:
DFA123 said:
Velolover2 said:
Koronin said:
Movistar just proved that they are not even close to as strong of a team as they have been the last several years. The exodus of riders over the past two years is showing. I have a feeling the team is going to implode completely at the Tour. They've had too many very good riders leave and it's really showing.
It's the lack of good rouleurs that makes them lose. They still have a great teams for the mountain stages but not for the hills or classics anymore. Losing Castroviejo, Malori (unfortunately) and Dowsett makes them less competitive.
I think they just lost because their leader, while still good, was not good enough this year. Even if Valverde would had two team-mates with him when Jungels took off, he wouldn't have won this race. He just didn't have the legs.
True enough. I think it was a combination of those two factors. His attack on the Falcons was done out of panic and the lack of team mates rather than "animating the race" as some people like to think.
Yeah, also I think after what happened to him at Amstel, he did those attacks hoping that just 2 o 3 riders would come across so that they would have a much better chance of working together. But his attacks weren't really hard enough to be that selective - perhaps another sign that he just didn't have the leg after 250km.
 

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