107th Milano - Sanremo, 19th March 2016, 291 km, WT

[HelloDolly]

Swift did NOT chase back after the big crash...he may have been held up a little but he is plain to see near the front as the Peloton starts climbing the Cipressa

This is at the same time Demare and Matthews are chasing at a minute back

 

[TMP402]

Re: Re:

He wasn;t at the back of the peloton and not behind Matthews


There were gaps

Completely separate incident, and it wasn;t really the back of Peloton then though, more of a split on descent

Fair enough.

 

[TourOfTexas]

Congrats to Ben Swift for his MSR victory!

 

[carton]

Re:

It's still not enough to make a decision but deletion of the strava file is the strongest admission of guilt possible IMO.

And here I'd always thought that a confession would be the the strongest admission of guilt possible.

In any case it could simply be the case that he put the power data in there, which would evidently show that not only he was faster than Visconti he did so with far less effort. Be that because of the cars drafting him or pulling him, either way it can't but look bad.

There's really no good way out for Demare. Taking a 60kph sticky bottle into the caravan draft, then drafting your way up the caravan and into the back of the peloton has always been a shady but generally unpunished thing in cycling. The UCI frowns upon it but really doesn't do anything about it since they want the big names to be there, Ian Crane is still alive, and people have sympathy for misfortune (as long as you don't win the race, then the going gets rough). They've already admitted to the bidon. It's crystal clear he gained around 20 seconds on the Cipressa. There's no damning footage. I'd say either put the numbers out and let the chips fall where they may (I doubt they'l take the win away unless it's something really shocking), or embrace your inner heel and put up a trophy selfie.

 

[TMP402]

Re: Re:

It's still not enough to make a decision but deletion of the strava file is the strongest admission of guilt possible IMO.

And here I'd always thought that a confession would be the the strongest admission of guilt possible.

Short of a confession, obviously.

 

[maltiv]

I remember during Il Lombardia one year, Thomas Voeckler took like 3-4 sticky bottles/energy bars in a row, with the cameras right on him. No penalty. He even threw one of the bars away without opening it. Of course, he didn't win the race so no one cared in the end.

At least Arnaud Demare was more subtle about it...

 

[lemon cheese cake]

Re: Re:

No point comparing Matthews with Swift and Demare - Matthews actually fell hard and injured his arm - Swift and Demare were caught up in the crash and didn't necessarily fall - So you comparing riders with different situations.

I am NOT comparing anything

I am stating what the footage shows ... I have it recorded....seems you are determined to believe what you want

I have no problem with your post - Nowhere does my post disprove what you posted - And My previous post never tagged your post - The crash involved around 15 riders and held up around another 30 or 40 riders - What I'm saying is that Matthews actually fell heavily in the crash, while Demare and Swift were held up - So comparing an injured rider and two non-injured riders performance for the rest of the race is flawed.

Was Swift held up, I am pretty sure he wasn't?

I remember seeing Swift having his wheel clipped by someone badly cornering on the Poggio with around 7-10km to go. At that point he was at the back of the peloton and possibly behind Matthews.

https://youtu.be/0BEEWzEAHic?t=3m17s
Swift overcooks the the corner along with a rider from Bora. They are passed by Matthews as Anthony Roux gets the corner wrong aswell. It was the same corner as Kwiatowski, Stybar and Ciolek crashed on last year.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

the strongest admission of guilt possible

And here I'd always thought that a confession would be the the strongest admission of guilt possible.

In any case it could simply be the case that he put the power data in there, which would evidently show that not only he was faster than Visconti he did so with far less effort. Be that because of the cars drafting him or pulling him, either way it can't but look bad.

There's really no good way out for Demare. Taking a 60kph sticky bottle into the caravan draft, then drafting your way up the caravan and into the back of the peloton has always been a shady but generally unpunished thing in cycling. The UCI frowns upon it but really doesn't do anything about it since they want the big names to be there, Ian Crane is still alive, and people have sympathy for misfortune (as long as you don't win the race, then the going gets rough). They've already admitted to the bidon. It's crystal clear he gained around 20 seconds on the Cipressa. There's no damning footage. I'd say either put the numbers out and let the chips fall where they may (I doubt they'l take the win away unless it's something really shocking), or embrace your inner heel and put up a trophy selfie.

+1. Guesdon is adamant that there were too many cars to go fast and dismissed the 80 km/h theory, admits to the sticky bottle, so it may be nothing worth screaming about: guys fall, draft, all the time. Having said that, the data deletion bothers me. Big time. This controversy opens the door for anti-French rhetoric or feelings to come to the surface, which also bothers me.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Re:

What about on board footage


Lookked again at the footage..

although lots of riders crashed or were held up only 3 teams were left in numbers by the road side (FDJ, OGE Bora)
While Thomas, Pwels , Bennatti & a Cannondale rider are on the ground not getting up

3 OGE teammates are waiting for Matthews
Only one team mate waiitng for Demare ...I think its Bonnet
2 Boro boys ...I think one is Bennett
Every one else at this time have gone

As the peloton enters Imperia (at about 26km to go) we see about a minute back 2 Boro riders , Demare , Mezgec & Matthews chasing back on
Car 79 is with them

As the Peloton climbs the Cipress , Swift is near enough to the front
2 FJD riders fall to the back of the peloton inc Reze

As the peloton crests the Cipprssa Kennaugh is back on at the back but no sign yet of Matthews or Demare

However at 10km to go ...on the flat section before the climb of the Poggio Demare is now near the front ...
At 9.4 to go we see Matthews is the last rider at the back of the peloton and looks like he just got back on

So somewhere between 26km and 10 km ot go Demare dropped Matthews

CAV went backwards at the start of the Cippresa ...wonder if he saw anything

Thanks for the write up

Demare did get pushed away fairly soon after the crash - approx 25 seconds - with Kennaugh just behind him. Matthews gets away after about 35 seconds and Mezgec was still trying to extract his bike at that point. I think the minute time gap that was quoted on commentary is probably a bit misleading. I think probably a lot less than that to the back of the peloton which itself was practically brought to a standstill at one pinch point on the Cipressa

What is clear is that whatever FDJ did, OGE and BOA will know about it because they were all chasing back together and Kennaugh must have been around them as well

 

[SafeBet]

Not trying to defend Demare here but 2.33 on that flattish section of Cipressa isn't an out of the word time. Last year lots of riders climbed it at that speed. And that's the final part of Cipressa so from the pictures I've seen Demare was already close enough to the peloton at that point.

 

[Lance Armstrong]

Re:

Not trying to defend Demare here but 2.33 on that flattish section of Cipressa isn't an out of the word time. Last year lots of riders climbed it at that speed. And that's the final part of Cipressa so from the pictures I've seen Demare was already close enough to the peloton at that point.

It is, if you've just climbed Cipressa on your own.

 

[luckyboy]

@procyclistsdata
Arnaud Demare's Cipressa climb on Strava. Around 20 seconds faster than Van Avermaet-Oss. Didn't stop pedalling #MSR

https://twitter.com/procyclistsdata/status/711573991991934976/

 

[luckyboy]

Strava file is back

https://www.strava.com/activities/521963982/segments/12550133735

 

[Alexandre B.]

80km/h surely
https://twitter.com/YohannLossouarn/status/711530334576369664

 

[CheckMyPecs]

At least this fiasco is giving lots of armchair detectives and forensic data scientists on Twitter their 5 minutes of fame.

 

[rehy90]

It is actually not so weird that he got the fastest time up the Cipressa if he was riding behind the cars, after all the average gradient is really low, so obviously riding behind the car is big help...so basically if he was just drafting behind the cars, I wouldnt care. On the other hand, if he was holding onto the car and if there is evidence, he should definitely be DSQed.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re:

It is actually not so weird that he got the fastest time up the Cipressa if he was riding behind the cars, after all the average gradient is really low, so obviously riding behind the car is big help...so basically if he was just drafting behind the cars, I wouldnt care. On the other hand, if he was holding onto the car and if there is evidence, he should definitely be DSQed.

A big sprinter with a faster time than a climber (Visconti) who was on the attack? Even if Demare did manage it legit, Visconti didn't have enough energy left to launch a sprint at the end (in fact he wasn't even in the lead group at the end)

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re: Re:

A big sprinter with a faster time than a climber (Visconti) who was on the attack?

A big sprinter who was drafting behind cars, but not necessarily holding onto them, yes.

 

[carolina]

his cadence is somewhat consistent during the climb, but that just means he was spinning the pedals, which he could do while holding to the car. the power profile would be better to take conclusions.

 

[rehy90]

Re: Re:

It is actually not so weird that he got the fastest time up the Cipressa if he was riding behind the cars, after all the average gradient is really low, so obviously riding behind the car is big help...so basically if he was just drafting behind the cars, I wouldnt care. On the other hand, if he was holding onto the car and if there is evidence, he should definitely be DSQed.

A big sprinter with a faster time than a climber (Visconti) who was on the attack? Even if Demare did manage it legit, Visconti didn't have enough energy left to launch a sprint at the end (in fact he wasn't even in the lead group at the end)

There is a big difference between riding on his own or behind some riders and riding behind the car...on such a low gradient its almost same as on the flat. And its not like he was so much faster than the others, look at strava, there are other sprinters in Top 10 and they were riding in the peloton, which i think is slightly harder than behind the car

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

A big sprinter with a faster time than a climber (Visconti) who was on the attack?

A big sprinter who was drafting behind cars, but not necessarily holding onto them, yes.

And I'm sure Tosatto and Chapecchi made up those allegations to promote Luis Leon and Sagan into 10th and 11th respectively

 

[kenk09]

Re: Re:

I have no problem with your post - Nowhere does my post disprove what you posted - And My previous post never tagged your post - The crash involved around 15 riders and held up around another 30 or 40 riders - What I'm saying is that Matthews actually fell heavily in the crash, while Demare and Swift were held up - So comparing an injured rider and two non-injured riders performance for the rest of the race is flawed.

Was Swift held up, I am pretty sure he wasn't?

I remember seeing Swift having his wheel clipped by someone badly cornering on the Poggio with around 7-10km to go. At that point he was at the back of the peloton and possibly behind Matthews.

https://youtu.be/0BEEWzEAHic?t=3m17s
Swift overcooks the the corner along with a rider from Bora. They are passed by Matthews as Anthony Roux gets the corner wrong aswell. It was the same corner as Kwiatowski, Stybar and Ciolek crashed on last year.

That's Puccio.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re: Re:

And I'm sure Tosatto and Chapecchi made up those allegations to promote Luis Leon and Sagan into 10th and 11th respectively

It's their words against Française des Jeux's.

 

[Tonton]

The plot thickens . No weapons of mass destruction it seems. Maybe it was a whole lot of noise for a little drafting and a sticky bottle. Now I'm waiting for the Skybots to accuse FDj of cooking the data overnight . Or maybe the Camora had a bet on Nacer .

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

A big sprinter with a faster time than a climber (Visconti) who was on the attack?

A big sprinter who was drafting behind cars, but not necessarily holding onto them, yes.

And I'm sure Tosatto and Chapecchi made up those allegations to promote Luis Leon and Sagan into 10th and 11th respectively

People would do anything for a few UCI points these days .