1988 Tour: '' 7 Riders PDM Doped ''

[Semper Fidelis]

Andy, like Paul Willerton, managed to see the world and survive as nice guys from my limited exposure. People closer to him said he stayed clean and still enjoyed riding. Gotta like that if it's still true. Anyone?

Since they survived as nice guys I am sure they are clean.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

.......and panasonic to me was definitely (quite) clean.


Yikes...Panasonic was really bad under Post. Take a look at what happened to Eric Vanderaerden only a few years into his career. Full burnout. I also read where Alexi Grewal described the culture there when he signed with them. Sorry to say. Not so clean.

so basically you say, because vanderaerden had a burn-out(could be a thousand reasons but doping) and grewal a f'n nobody rider who rode one year with panasonic(and what exaclty did he say regarding doping in panasonic?) you claim they are a doped team? that is called an opinion... and one without any base I might add.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'd say Reynolds/Banesto and Carrera were the real examples. They were just as dirty and managed to keep the scandals away.

PDM was simply too much scandal. Keep in mind that when PDM folded a lot of the team went to... Festina.

Sadly, I think they were all examples.
But if news starts to come out I think you would be able to plot when the transition from steroid based PEDs to EPO becoming the drug of choice.

I always felt PDM were at the forefront, they were the blueprint of the modern team, they had a large budget, first to have a bus, do proper off season training etc
And I would assume at the cutting edge of the latest (at that time) doping methods - wasn't their nickname Performance Due to Manipulation, or something like that?!

 

[L'arriviste]

Sadly, I think they were all examples.
But if news starts to come out I think you would be able to plot when the transition from steroid based PEDs to EPO becoming the drug of choice.

I always felt PDM were at the forefront, they were the blueprint of the modern team, they had a large budget, first to have a bus, do proper off season training etc
And I would assume at the cutting edge of the latest (at that time) doping methods - wasn't their nickname Performance Due to Manipulation, or something like that?!

I agree with this but probably like you I always look forward to hearing more.

The Conconi and Ferrari cases somewhat illuminated the Italian scene: Carrera got a teamwide programme through its doctors, who had worked with Conconi.

The same can't be said of the Benelux and Spanish scenes, which are both still rather cloaked in mystery. I've also heard one or two whispers about Switzerland that pre-date the usual estimations.

The figure who bridges both worlds here is Fondriest, who didn't thrive at Panasonic and seemed only to get in the game from late 1992 when he'd left Panasonic and gone back to Italy to join Lampre (in its inaugural year, folks! ), much to my childhood disgust. His 1993 season was like Gilbert's 2011.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

so basically you say, because vanderaerden had a burn-out(could be a thousand reasons but doping) and grewal a f'n nobody rider who rode one year with panasonic(and what exaclty did he say regarding doping in panasonic?) you claim they are a doped team? that is called an opinion... and one without any base I might add.

Before you make a bigger fool of yourself, read this excerpt from a Velonews essay Grewal wrote.


The fear of doping hit me for real the day I dropped into the continental professional scene. From day one with Panasonic-Raleigh it was made known that “The Program” was the high and holy way, salvation open to all, and required of all to survive and win. Faux doctors like Ruud Bakker, no more than pseudo-credentialed soigneurs, introduced me to the gospel of champions. That all of them said and took the Holy Vow. Team director Peter Post, as the high priest, intoned that I must listen to the “doctor” and submit to the “Preparation.” Our syringes came gift wrapped in the morning and evening during stage races, and in the 2007 Tour de France one of my former roommates sat behind the wheel of a team car pulling feathers out of his hair.

 

[Aapjes]

It seems that only Rooks and Theunisse were the only two to receive blood bags in 88. I am even surprised at that tbh but then PDM were at the forefront of doping it seems.

Muller got a bag too. The page lists only 5 PDM riders, 3 of them blood doping.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Before you make a bigger fool of yourself, read this excerpt from a Velonews essay Grewal wrote.


The fear of doping hit me for real the day I dropped into the continental professional scene. From day one with Panasonic-Raleigh it was made known that “The Program” was the high and holy way, salvation open to all, and required of all to survive and win. Faux doctors like Ruud Bakker, no more than pseudo-credentialed soigneurs, introduced me to the gospel of champions. That all of them said and took the Holy Vow. Team director Peter Post, as the high priest, intoned that I must listen to the “doctor” and submit to the “Preparation.” Our syringes came gift wrapped in the morning and evening during stage races, and in the 2007 Tour de France one of my former roommates sat behind the wheel of a team car pulling feathers out of his hair.

sounds to me like some idiot ramblings. I much rather take the words of someone like peter winnen serious. in fact show me some other riders giving simular statements regarding panasonic

 

[CanSprint]

I read an article about Steve Bauer (4th in 88) saying he did it on water...and if the others were not doping what his results would have been.
He would have won gold in 84, paris roubaix, etc etc.

 

[perico]

I know Dhaenens died in a car crash. I said he had to quit because of heart problems not that he died because of it.

Anyhow, it seems like only Kneteman was clean (was involved in a crash), so that makes 8 riders. Surprising.

They were doing blooddoping already + testosterone (andriol) and cortisone.

The notes and data (scroll down page):
http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2698...urele-dopinggebruik-binnen-de-PDM-ploeg.dhtml

Even during the stage to l'Alpe d'Huez both Steven Rooks and G-J Theunisse received testosterone.

Bertus Fok, has confirmed everything but said he didnt dare to hand out EPO (it was a known product already, if I read between the lines).

I always found it rather odd that Rooks was able to stay with Delgado, arguably the strongest climber of the era, on that stage. Even with Delgado's own problems (yes, I am a huge fan of him anyways), Rooks wasn't on his level in the mountains.

 

[DirtyWorks]

sounds to me like some idiot ramblings. I much rather take the words of someone like peter winnen serious. in fact show me some other riders giving simular statements regarding panasonic

While I don't care for the writing style at all, Alexi failed a doping test here in the States under the old USCF too. IMHO, It's a credible source.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I read an article about Steve Bauer (4th in 88) saying he did it on water...and if the others were not doping what his results would have been.
He would have won gold in 84, paris roubaix, etc etc.

For the 1984 Olympics, he lost a sprint. There is no arguing he lost to a cheater. But, the loss wasn't to someone who simply rode away from him thanks to doping.

He was one of many near-greats. He either didn't have enough opportunities to practice finishing to get on the top of the podium, or crazy bad luck, or something else.

 

[Big Doopie]

For the 1984 Olympics, he lost a sprint. There is no arguing he lost to a cheater. But, the loss wasn't to someone who simply rode away from him thanks to doping.

i'm not sure how that follows. grewal was probably only able to be with bauer (the runaway pre-race favorite) because he was doped. if he weren't, there would have been no sprint and bauer would have arrived alone to win.

 

["Jeff"]

I always found it rather odd that Rooks was able to stay with Delgado, arguably the strongest climber of the era, on that stage. Even with Delgado's own problems (yes, I am a huge fan of him anyways), Rooks wasn't on his level in the mountains.

Delgado was the better climber but who knows what pharmacy he went to that day. Perico or their fans are the last people who should question Rooks' level of performance.

 

[GP Blanco]

I always felt PDM were at the forefront, they were the blueprint of the modern team, they had a large budget, first to have a bus, do proper off season training etc
And I would assume at the cutting edge of the latest (at that time) doping methods - wasn't their nickname Performance Due to Manipulation, or something like that?!

I thought their nickname was Pills Doping and Medicine. I have to admit that this news was not shocking to me, after all they dropped out of the 1991 Tour de France because of "food poisoning". Turned out to be Intralipid, of course not a forbidden substance, but they thought it was performance enhancing. This PDM story is also an example of the "féticheur" approach, they used too few of it to be effective.

 

["Jeff"]

I thought their nickname was Pills Doping and Medicine. I have to admit that this news was not shocking to me, after all they dropped out of the 1991 Tour de France because of "food poisoning". Turned out to be Intralipid, of course not a forbidden substance, but they thought it was performance enhancing. This PDM story is also an example of the "féticheur" approach, they used too few of it to be effective.

To be effective for what ? They never won a GT but Rooks, Theunisse and Breukink were no winners. I wouldnt make them my captain for the Tour, Giro or Vuelta.

As for the rest, they were one of the best teams ever with some major results. Seems pretty effective to me.

 

[DirtyWorks]

i'm not sure how that follows. grewal was probably only able to be with bauer (the runaway pre-race favorite) because he was doped. if he weren't, there would have been no sprint and bauer would have arrived alone to win.

Fair enough. My bike racing history is far from perfect.

 

[Big Doopie]

Fair enough. My bike racing history is far from perfect.

cheers. can't believe bauer wasn't able to drop him as he caught him. that must haunt him to this day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tWg_CR43rg

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

cheers. can't believe bauer wasn't able to drop him as he caught him. that must haunt him to this day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tWg_CR43rg

Sadly Bauer was robbed several times in the last 200 meters. Worlds, Par Roubaix, Olympics, and at least a couple others. He could have / should have won more.

At least most believe as do I that he rode super clean in an era that got super dirty as his career came to its end.

 

[86TDFWinner]

sounds to me like some idiot ramblings. I much rather take the words of someone like peter winnen serious. in fact show me some other riders giving simular statements regarding panasonic

X2. Hasnt Grewal been proven to be a liar in the past, or at the very least have a "fuzzy memory" of what's really happened?. Admittedly, I liked Grewal in the 80's and on 7 eleven, but I've read numerous interviews where he comes off as bitter, butthurt, and someone who tells tales.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Before you make a bigger fool of yourself, read this excerpt from a Velonews essay Grewal wrote.


The fear of doping hit me for real the day I dropped into the continental professional scene. From day one with Panasonic-Raleigh it was made known that “The Program” was the high and holy way, salvation open to all, and required of all to survive and win. Faux doctors like Ruud Bakker, no more than pseudo-credentialed soigneurs, introduced me to the gospel of champions. That all of them said and took the Holy Vow. Team director Peter Post, as the high priest, intoned that I must listen to the “doctor” and submit to the “Preparation.” Our syringes came gift wrapped in the morning and evening during stage races, and in the 2007 Tour de France one of my former roommates sat behind the wheel of a team car pulling feathers out of his hair.

Curious, when you say "they were all taking it", do you mean just PDM, or every rider/team on tour at the time, which has been proven time and time again to be factually incorrect, so what do you mean?

 

[pleyser]

Bauer and Hampsten

This news puts the performances of Steve Bauer and Andy Hampsten in even a better light. Since EPO's influence later ended their competitiveness, I've concluded they likely didn't dope, or at least as much.

The CBS Tour coverage of that year (watched it again recently) often portrayed Hampsten as being of lesser talent, while minimizing the issues surrounding Delgado's test and no mention of Theunisse's relegation. Even then, the media was an enabler of doping.

 

[Escarabajo]

Former Panasonic rider Peter Winnen has talked about his doping in the past and never mentioned Blood doping. I guess that doesn't mean it didn't happen. After all when Rooks and Theunisee admitted, they never mentioned blood bags.

It seems that only Rooks and Theunisse were the only two to receive blood bags in 88. I am even surprised at that tbh but then PDM were at the forefront of doping it seems.

I am confused about the blood doping. I know Rooks talked about his doping and his later usage of EPO but did he ever mentioned blood doping in 88 and 89? why did he omit that? because of his podium being tarnished? he already had confessed to doping anyway.

It looks like that early form of blood doping was still rudimentary for the Tour (once at the beginning, or little amounts) since we did not see the big burst in the mountains that we saw in latter years. Even compared to the blood doping post 2001.

 

[MrRoboto]

People seem to have hard time admitting EPO and blood doping. When it comes to EPO it's "at the end of my career", when it's now common knowledge that "everybody did it".

Nobody wants to admit they were among the first. And nobody wants to admit that they are only products of doping.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Curious, when you say "they were all taking it", do you mean just PDM, or every rider/team on tour at the time, which has been proven time and time again to be factually incorrect, so what do you mean?

I am not sure where you read me to be saying anything, or why you take the liberty of falsely quoting me.This is an excerpt from a Velonews article, so "I" am not saying anything.

However what Grewal is saying is consistent with what more and more ex-riders are saying today about what happened in that era. And that era started well before the PDM soigneur notebook pages got published.

 

[CanSprint]

cheers. can't believe bauer wasn't able to drop him as he caught him. that must haunt him to this day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tWg_CR43rg

Yeah i have from a good source that Bauer said he could of dropped him but thought he would never beat him in the sprint...