1988 Tour: '' 7 Riders PDM Doped ''

[Bat Man]

There is more to this story. PDM pushed Greg to dope. When he resisted they started calling him un-professional. Later Greg left a note on the sun shade of Harry's car

Wow. Did Greg speak out about this at the time?

 

[Totilas]

What a peculiar moment to hand this 25 years old document to a journalist.

Before I opened this thread, I didn't realise Lemond was that year in the PDM team.

 

[FitSsikS]

What a peculiar moment to hand this 25 years old document to a journalist.

Before I opened this thread, I didn't realise Lemond was that year in the PDM team.

 

[ultimobici]

Ethanks for the link, good read. It was in 89 that Greg broke contract, as I said earlier, he was still out of the 88 tour recovering from the hunting accident.

Besides, this should further cement proof Greg has never doped. He raced clean, and remained steadfast on that, thats why he's such a class act and SHOULD be hailed as a hero imo.

Lemond must have felt like he was living in a nightmare, by the sounds of it.

http://www.bikeradar.com/blog/article/part-3-the-greatest-tour-of-all-by-greg-lemond-23025/

After my two years with La Vie Claire, then after Toshiba had dumped me after my hunting accident, I had a two-year contract with PDM that my dad had negotiated on the day of my second operation in 1987. One of the conditions in the PDM deal was that I had to be racing by the end of 1987 but, if you knew what had happened to me, that was insane. My way around it was to show up to a criterium in Belgium at the end of the season and do one lap. That was it. I pretended that I had a flat tyre.

With PDM, I was supposed to earn US$200,000 in 1988 and double that in 1989. Unfortunately I started horribly in ’88 and injured my tendon. They then put me in a cast. To me that didn’t sound like the right thing to do, so I took it upon myself to call an orthopedic surgeon, who confirmed my suspicion. I then went home in June and went on anti-inflammatories for six weeks. I couldn’t pedal. Finally, on July 12th, they made an incision into my tendon and I was back on the bike in tennis shoes the next day, and with my cycling shoes three weeks later.

I’d now had almost two years without any racing, but PDM wanted to throw me right back in at the Tour of Holland. I lasted two days, and that’s when the trouble with the team really started. To my mind the problems stemmed from Gert-Jan Theunisse’s positive test, or more specifically my reaction to it, which was to tell the management that whoever had given him the drugs should be fired and the same applied to Theunisse. I liked Gert but I didn’t want to be associated with any kind of doping.

Of course this was never made public, which gave them the license to start rumours about me bad-mouthing the other riders and asking for a pay-raise. They were all saying 'How dare he ask for a pay-raise when he’s had no results and he never trains?'

It became clear to everyone at this point that it wasn’t going to work, so I started quietly asking around at other teams, knowing that it’d suit all parties if I could leave PDM. I went to Fagor to do a VO2 Max test and scored 77 or 79, with zero training and the iron stocks in my body totally depleted by the accident. My right lung was also collapsed. But they weren’t interested. They said I didn’t have the potential to win another Tour.

 

[Bat Man]

I can see why Armstrong resented the way LeMond immediately talked publicly upon learning about his connection to Dr Ferrari, but kept his own team's doping out of the media when he was riding.

 

[Totilas]

If Lemond were doped or not, that was not the point in 1988, especially not in Europe. The turning point of the public opinion on doping was notbefore 1998.

I am curious, after so much confessions these days, will more orginal documents show up?

 

[ultimobici]

I can see why Armstrong resented the way LeMond immediately talked publicly upon learning about his connection to Dr Ferrari, but kept his own team's doping out of the media when he was riding.

A little different, don't you think? One was actively doping, the other was being pressured to dope. The former carried on doping, lying etc for a decade or more, the latter removed himself from the situation and carried on riding clean.

 

[Benotti69]

I can see why Armstrong resented the way LeMond immediately talked publicly upon learning about his connection to Dr Ferrari, but kept his own team's doping out of the media when he was riding.

Armstrong owned the team and made sure the riders doped.

LeMond did not own the team and did not encourage doping. In fact he appears to have told the DS to shove them where the sun dont shine.

I think those 2 positions are millions of miles apart.

Nice try though to drag LeMond down, but big FAIL.

 

[Bat Man]

A little different, don't you think? One was actively doping, the other was being pressured to dope. The former carried on doping, lying etc for a decade or more, the latter removed himself from the situation and carried on riding clean.

You're comparing the two individual's behavior on doping, which is a different point. I'm refering to omerta. LeMond did not raise the red flag while he was riding. He kept the doping of his team quiet within the sport. But he immediately outed Armstrong years later. I can see why Armstrong resented this.

 

[hrotha]

You're comparing the two individual's behavior on doping, which is a different point. I'm refering to omerta. LeMond did not raise the red flag while he was riding. He kept the doping of his team quiet within the sport. But he immediately outed Armstrong years later. I can see why Armstrong resented this.

1) LeMond didn't out Armstrong, he commented on a story that was already out there.
2) IIRC he did actually speak out against PDM at the time.

 

[Bat Man]

1) LeMond didn't out Armstrong, he commented on a story that was already out there.
2) IIRC he did actually speak out against PDM at the time.

What did he say about PDM's doping program at the time?

 

[ultimobici]

You're comparing the two individual's behavior on doping, which is a different point. I'm refering to omerta. LeMond did not raise the red flag while he was riding. He kept the doping of his team quiet within the sport. But he immediately outed Armstrong years later. I can see why Armstrong resented this.

All he did, when asked about the revelation that Armstrong was working with Ferrari was express disappointment saying,

“When Lance won the prologue to the 1999 Tour I was close to tears, but when I heard he was working with Michele Ferrari I was devastated. In the light of Lance’s relationship with Ferrari, I just don’t want to comment on this year’s Tour. This is not sour grapes. I’m disappointed in Lance, that’s all it is.”

What problem could an innocent man have with that statement? None. But a man with a secret to guard would have plenty to be peeved about.

 

[ultimobici]

What did he say about PDM's doping program at the time?

Problem is having proof. Opening up in public against PDM could have ruined him financially as well as killing any hope of riding stone dead.

 

[Aleajactaest]

A little different, don't you think? One was actively doping, the other was being pressured to dope. The former carried on doping, lying etc for a decade or more, the latter removed himself from the situation and carried on riding clean.

And we know this how? Serious question.

Now that we have clear evidence that doping occurred in his era, how do we know who did and who did not?

 

[hrotha]

What did he say about PDM's doping program at the time?

It's in another of the LeMond threads. Use the Search feature.

 

[Irish2009]

For those that are to lazy, this article was written in '89, read the whole thing .


http://articles.latimes.com/1989-07-25/sports/sp-95_1_greg-lemond


Respect to Lemond.

 

[Benotti69]

And we know this how? Serious question.

Now that we have clear evidence that doping occurred in his era, how do we know who did and who did not?

What a stupid question?

LeMond tried to kill the golden goose (Armstrong) of cycling don't you remember? Even now lots wont speak out against that goose. LeMond did in 2001. If ever a rider was going to get called a hypocrit it was LeMond for the last 20 years.

No not one rider coming out to say well so what if Armstrong doped, so did LeMond! Not one! Where are they? Why have they kept quiet?

Trying to smear LeMond is sick.

I say the above and I was not a fan of his when he was a rider.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You're comparing the two individual's behavior on doping, which is a different point. I'm refering to omerta. LeMond did not raise the red flag while he was riding. He kept the doping of his team quiet within the sport. But he immediately outed Armstrong years later. I can see why Armstrong resented this.

The reason Armstrong resented it was because it was true and Greg was right.

 

[Benotti69]

This thread has turned into a LeMond thread and we already have 2 or 3 of those and dont need anymore.

Can we keep it to PDM rdiers who doped, which LeMond was not one?

 

[pmcg76]

What did he say about PDM's doping program at the time?

I think you should read the article linked by Irish2009. Perhaps you have your reason right there in the article, the quote by Harry Janssen the PR officer for PDM.

I know for some people it's hard to grasp the difference between the attitudes towards speaking about doping pre-Festina and post-Festina. A lot of people only have come to sport in the last 10 years so it's hard to imagine what it was like before.

Before Festina, speaking about doping was automatic career suicide primarily because there was no real significant fact's out there that showed doping was common even though it was obvious in the EPO years.

Hell even speaking about doping post Festina was not a good idea but it couldn't be pretended anymore that it didn't exist. People could always point towards the 98 Tour and the subsequent comment's by the likes of Zulle etc that doping was widespread. This was aided by the various investigations and scandal's that seemed to erupt every few month's.

 

[pmcg76]

Before you make a bigger fool of yourself, read this excerpt from a Velonews essay Grewal wrote.


The fear of doping hit me for real the day I dropped into the continental professional scene. From day one with Panasonic-Raleigh it was made known that “The Program” was the high and holy way, salvation open to all, and required of all to survive and win. Faux doctors like Ruud Bakker, no more than pseudo-credentialed soigneurs, introduced me to the gospel of champions. That all of them said and took the Holy Vow. Team director Peter Post, as the high priest, intoned that I must listen to the “doctor” and submit to the “Preparation.” Our syringes came gift wrapped in the morning and evening during stage races, and in the 2007 Tour de France one of my former roommates sat behind the wheel of a team car pulling feathers out of his hair.

Just wanted to take this quote of Alexi Grewal and flesh it out a bit. Ruud Bakker, the soigneur mentioned was also the guy who Peter Winnen worked with at TI-Raleigh/Panasonic. This is how Winnen described Bakker

It wasn't just 'take this, take that', he did it very properly. He used to say 'I would never do anything with my rider's that I wouldn't do with any of my children'. He respected his riders.
Taken from an interview from Cycle Sport 2005

Peter Winnen was a proponent of hormonal equilibrium.

Former Panasonic Allen Peiper also talked about hormonal equilibrium in his book and it was he who mentioned Dr.Janssen. I am assuming this is the same Dr.Peter Janssen that is mentioned in the Rudi Kemna confession

"At Panasonic, we worked with a Dutch doctor, Dr Janssen, and it was his theory that there had to be some common ground between what was doping and what was the therapeutic care of riders. For example, there came a time when any artificial administration of testosterone was banned but it's a medical fact that when testosterone levels drop, the body is damaged by racing. He thought that keeping the body levels of some substances within a safe band was beneficial to a riders health given that his profession demands that he can't just go home because he is tired. Dr.Janssen viewed everything from a health perspective rather than just giving you stuff to boost your performance"
Allan Peiper, A Peipers Tale, page 122

Judging by the notes from the PDM doping diary, hormonal equilibrium was also practiced at PDM as testosterone was the one product that all the riders received on a regular basis, I dont know if the doses 10g I think are considered big or small, perhaps a more qualified person can comment on that.

Clearly judging by his comment's Greg LeMond did not believe in hormonal equilibrium.

Would also like to point out that when the PDM scandal erupted back in late 97, Fons Van Heel, a soigneur at Rabobank during that time was accused of buying EPO from Wim Sanders, the guy at the centre of the investigation.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/archives/nov97/nov28a.html

That would have occurred pre 97 so probably during the Novell period of the team. Whilst EPO might not have been used in a team wide program, somebody on the team was using it.

 

[Bat Man]

I know for some people it's hard to grasp the difference between the attitudes towards speaking about doping pre-Festina and post-Festina. A lot of people only have come to sport in the last 10 years so it's hard to imagine what it was like before.

Before Festina, speaking about doping was automatic career suicide primarily because there was no real significant fact's out there that showed doping was common even though it was obvious in the EPO years.

Interesting. Sometimes people present Armstrong as an exceptional bully in the peloton that took omerta to new levels. But you say it was actually a lot worse before his time. Maybe someone should tell the mainstream media.

 

[pmcg76]

Interesting. Sometimes people present Armstrong as an exceptional bully in the peloton that took omerta to new levels. But you say it was actually a lot worse before his time. Maybe someone should tell the mainstream media.

In fairness Armstrong did take bullying to new levels, I never witnessed any of the bullying Lance demonstrated pre-Festina. Anyone who spoke was usually ridiculed as bitter but few athletes took it upon themselves to actively destroy people like Lance did. Very few of them had the power, time or the money to do so.

 

[Bat Man]

In fairness Armstrong did take bullying to new levels, I never witnessed any of the bullying Lance demonstrated pre-Festina. Anyone who spoke was usually ridiculed as bitter but few athletes took it upon themselves to actively destroy people like Lance did. Very few of them had the power, time or the money to do so.

But it would be career suicide in the sport before Festina to speak out? That sounds like bullying. Just because you can't see the team boss or whoever, making the calls to destroy someone's career, just because it's not documented, doesn't make it any less bullying.

 

[hrotha]

Interesting. Sometimes people present Armstrong as an exceptional bully in the peloton that took omerta to new levels. But you say it was actually a lot worse before his time. Maybe someone should tell the mainstream media.

How come you didn't take back the things you said before and which have been proven wrong, and instead you just keep trying to come up with ways to smear LeMond?

Guys, don't bother. Ignore him.