2012 Vuelta. The Return of the King.

[The Hitch]

do you realize that everything is far more relative? top form doesnt exclude bad days or tactical mistakes. top form can be beaten by another top form, it the second rider improved more than his opponent. im really wondering how youll comment first serious contador's defeat for no obvious reasons like the giro.projection everything on the giro is too primitive. every case (scarponi, nibali, anton, purito) is induvidual.

Somethings are more complicated, this isnt.

Contador, very tired, therefore long way of top form.

Simple.

 

[airstream]

Somethings are more complicated, this isnt.

Contador, very tired, therefore long way of top form.

Simple.

too simplified. top form itself is an abstraction, a devilishly conventional concept. contador 10tdf, schleck 11'tdf, nibali 10 vuelta. is these examples top form?

 

[airstream]

Its not too simplistic. Lots of factors were stacked against Contador.

1. The effects of a brutal Giro.

2. The crash on the 1st stage.

3. His team being poor in TTT. Its wasnt his fault he didnt have a good enough team for it.

4. He was also complaining with a knee problem.

He actually did well to finish 5th in the end. I would like to see what other riders would do if they had to deal with those problems. Do you think Andy would finish 5th. Just look at Basso and Evans the previous year when they ended up nowhere in 2010 coming off their own brutal Giro. Evans also had an injury to deal with and he couldnt cope.

i try to reason about top form in general, not only in regards to contador. indeed. although some circumstances played for him, say, the pyreenes. I hesitate to say to what degree it happened because of him, but this is the case

Do you think Andy would finish 5th.

nobody knows. actually, it is verifiable only experimentally.

Just look at Basso and Evans the previous year when they ended up nowhere in 2010 coming off their own brutal Giro.

basso climbed on ax3, having already been ill. iirc, he pretended to 8-9 places until the pyrenees.

 

[The Hitch]

i try to reason about top form in general, not only in regards to contador. indeed. although some circumstances played for him, say, the pyreenes. I hesitate to say to what degree it happened because of him, but this is the case

Yes other things come into account too.

For example 2010 he was weaker, not on top form no question and no obvious reason.

 

[Angliru]

With that name, you just have to be a troll. Anyway, there is an Andy appreciation thread where you can go kiss his ***.

I think you guys are taking this a bit far. If his posts are so offensive or annoying simply add him to the ignore list. No point in being so abusive.

 

[Angliru]

Only 169 days to go...

155 days until the precious can race again.

LOL!! You seriously crack me up!

 

[Angliru]

do you realize that everything is far more relative? top form doesnt exclude bad days or tactical mistakes. top form can be beaten by another top form, it the second rider improved more than his opponent. im really wondering how youll comment first serious contador's defeat for no obvious reasons like the giro.projection everything on the giro is too primitive. every case (scarponi, nibali, anton, purito) is induvidual.

When your hero wins the Giro and shows up to the Tour to seriously put in a challenge for the gc then you may have some frame of reference since you can't accept that Contador and many others have failed to do both and rational reasons for that failure.

 

[Angliru]

too simplified. top form itself is an abstraction, a devilishly conventional concept. contador 10tdf, schleck 11'tdf, nibali 10 vuelta. is these examples top form?

Dude, are you being difficult sheerly for your own entertainment? You can't be as narrowminded as your posts portray you.

 

[airstream]

When your hero wins the Giro and shows up to the Tour to seriously put in a challenge for the gc then you may have some frame of reference since you can't accept that Contador and many others have failed to do both and rational reasons for that failure.

i admit but that is not the question. you just consider its up to him and only him. its the thing i strongly disagree with

Dude, are being difficult sheerly for your own entertainment? You can't be as narrowminded as your posts portray you.

too much personal stuff. i say whatever i want. do you have anything to dispute in essence?
Ur posts characterize you in a certain way too.

 

[Angliru]

i admit but that is not the question. you just consider its up to him and only him. its the thing i strongly disagree with

too much personal stuff. i say whatever i want. do you have anything to dispute in essence?

What is up to him and only him? Maybe I'm just not understanding you.

I'm not disputing your right to say what you want but when it's so plainly obvious that you aren't looking at all the facts then I have ask are you being serious or just posting to get a reaction instead of to start an actual dialogue.

 

[airstream]

What is up to him and only him? Maybe I'm just not understanding you.

I'm not disputing your right to say what you want but when it's so plainly obvious that you aren't looking at all the facts then I have ask are you being serious or just posting to get a reaction instead of to start an actual dialogue.

alright. you think, that if contador would of started the tdf in the giro (not '11, just in the general case) form , the result had been predetermined, right?

 

[Angliru]

alright. you think, that if contador would of started the tdf in the giro (not '11, just in the general case) form , the result had been predetermined, right?

Nothing is a given. Look at all the contenders and riders in general that crashed out of the 2011 Tour. I think that without the Giro in his legs that had he been able to avoid the crashes, he definitely would've been more of a factor and would have, at minimum, made the podium. His record in grand tours supports that. I believe he would've won the Tour. Not that it was predetermined but he would've been the favorite and for good reason.

Edit: Did you mean Tour and the Giro or just the Tour? Regardless going into a grand tour where all things are even with all the contenders in present day, Contador is the favorite,(unless there are 200 km of flat tt's and minimal mountains).

Or a Vuelta parcours like the one Freddie Maerten's won and, as gooner stated, a long TTT.

 

[airstream]

Well he would be fresh and for instance i think a fully fresh and not fatigued Contador would of wiped the floor with the opposition at Plateau de Beille. In the TT even a tired Contador came 3rd so if he wasnt tired imagine what he would of done. We probably would of seen something similiar to his TT win in 09.

The only area where he would of had a problem was TTT and thats for obvious reasons.

ok, but the fight on plateau de beille had a positional nature, roughly as on monte terminillo in the 2010 giro, for instance. naive to think that the opposition would've ridden as miserably as they did in case contador had blown up. or you really think that he would be able to give 8-10k solo and put into 1m+?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

ok, but the fight on plateau de beille had a positional nature, roughly as on monte terminillo in the 2010 giro, for instance. naive to think that the opposition would've ridden as miserably as they did in case contador had blown up. or you really think that he would be able to give 8-10k solo and put into 1m+?

Plateau de Beille is much harder than Terminillo. If Contador injected pace into the race, gaps would have been created by everybody separating out and trying to respond, because it's easier to ride in a group than to ride solo. Plateau de Beille averages 8%. It's not the kind of climb you expect to see a group coming in together on. Contador has splintered the group to pieces on much easier climbs than that - Fuentes de Invierno, Macugnaga, Montagne de la Lure, Verbier... all way, way easier than Plateau de Beille.

Andy should have exploded the race right there. Even if Contador had gone with him, he already had time over Alberto thanks to the crashes, and he could have reduced his viable opponents to 1, or maybe 2 at most.

The only time Andy has truly looked like the champion he has the talent to be has been when Fränk HASN'T been there, because he didn't have anybody to look around for after a few seconds of attack.

 

[LaFlorecita]

do you realize that everything is far more relative? top form doesnt exclude bad days or tactical mistakes. top form can be beaten by another top form, it the second rider improved more than his opponent. im really wondering how youll comment first serious contador's defeat for no obvious reasons like the giro.projection everything on the giro is too primitive. every case (scarponi, nibali, anton, purito) is induvidual.

too simplified. top form itself is an abstraction, a devilishly conventional concept. contador 10tdf, schleck 11'tdf, nibali 10 vuelta. is these examples top form?

i try to reason about top form in general, not only in regards to contador. indeed. although some circumstances played for him, say, the pyreenes. I hesitate to say to what degree it happened because of him, but this is the case


nobody knows. actually, it is verifiable only experimentally.

basso climbed on ax3, having already been ill. iirc, he pretended to 8-9 places until the pyrenees.

i admit but that is not the question. you just consider its up to him and only him. its the thing i strongly disagree with

too much personal stuff. i say whatever i want. do you have anything to dispute in essence?
Ur posts characterize you in a certain way too.

alright. you think, that if contador would of started the tdf in the giro (not '11, just in the general case) form , the result had been predetermined, right?

ok, but the fight on plateau de beille had a positional nature, roughly as on monte terminillo in the 2010 giro, for instance. naive to think that the opposition would've ridden as miserably as they did in case contador had blown up. or you really think that he would be able to give 8-10k solo and put into 1m+?

What exactly are you trying to show? I'm lost.

 

[LaFlorecita]

LOL!! You seriously crack me up!

It's true.
.....................

 

[airstream]

contador was at about 95% preparedness in the 11 tour. being out of form he could have failed completely. i don't see the principal difference between his form in '10 tour and '11 one, without taking into account the stage to galibier.

 

[LaFlorecita]

contador was at about 95% preparedness in the 11 tour. being out of form he could have failed completely. i don't see the principal difference between his form in '10 tour and '11 one, without taking into account the stage to galibier.

In 2010 he was crap. In 2011 he was crappier, mainly because of the Giro, but also because of the crashes, and his knee injury, and, what many people don't know, because he hurt his head and back in one of the crashes. (The one where there was something wrong with his wheel.)

The thing is, a bad Contador is still better than a huge part of the peloton. That's talent for you.

Edit: Also, you say not taking into account the Galibier stage, well, if we're not taking into account that stage Alberto would've finished a lot closer.

Edit2: Also, he wasn't "at 95% preparedness", as you say. I would say he was at about 90% in 2010, he was worse last year.

 

[airstream]

Edit2: Also, he wasn't "at 95% preparedness", as you say. I would say he was at about 90% in 2010, he was worse last year.

thats the way youd like to think, but it isn't so. its the same as i would say that andy has never had an insane form in the tour so far.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

thats the way youd like to think, but it isn't so. its the same as i would say that andy has never had an insane form in the tour so far.

So in your opinion, what % of form was Andy at in the Tour last year.

Was it above or below this farcical 95% you've set for Alberto?

 

[airstream]

So in your opinion, what % of form was Andy at in the Tour last year.

Was it above or below this farcical 95% you've set for Alberto?

100. the best we saw from him.

 

[airstream]

difficult to say. probably 95% of what we saw in 2010. assuming that contador is able to win the tour at <90% or, at "crap", as La Florecita kindly specified, is even more farcial.

 

[LaFlorecita]

thats the way youd like to think, but it isn't so. its the same as i would say that andy has never had an insane form in the tour so far.

We'll never know. I just know that 2009 and Giro 2011 was hundred percent, and in 2010 and the 2011 Tour he was significantly worse. Or do you disagree that Alberto crushes the opposition when he's 100 percent?

Also, please argue why you think Alberto was at 95%. You say that I'm wrong. Do you have some sort of inside knowledge?

 

[LaFlorecita]

difficult to say. probably 95% of what we saw in 2010. assuming that contador is able to win the tour at <90% or, at "crap", as La Florecita kindly specified, is even more farcial.

Lol, it's true. Whether you like it or not, Alberto was only "good" in Mende and on Tourmalet.

 

[meat puppet]

I don't care about the nitpicking or arbitrary percentages, but the argument that riding the Giro a month before would not tax a GC rider come Tour is, well, outrageous.

Put it this way: if that was true, then going for it in the Giro would be the ideal Tour prep.