2012 Vuelta. The Return of the King.

[Libertine Seguros]

difficult to say. probably 95% of what we saw in 2010. assuming that contador is able to win the tour at <90% or, at "crap", as La Florecita kindly specified, is even more farcial.

But Contador was NOT able to win the Tour in 2011, so said assumption is irrelevant, because nobody made it.

What you're saying is that, in your opinion Andy and Alberto came into the 2011 Tour with equal preparation and form, and that somehow losing time in the mountains of the Tour de Suisse to a sprinter is parallel in preparation terms to taking a month's break after dominating a GT including some of the toughest stages and mountains in the sport?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I don't care about the nitpicking or arbitrary percentages, but the argument that riding the Giro a month before would not tax a GC rider come Tour is, well, outrageous.

Put it this way: if that was true, then going for it in the Giro would be the ideal Tour prep.

Recent Giro winners' performance in the Tour:

Alberto Contador 2011: 5th
(Michele Scarponi 2011: DNS)
Ivan Basso 2010: 32nd
Denis Menchov 2009: 50th
Alberto Contador 2008: DNS
Danilo di Luca 2007: DNS

 

[airstream]

I don't care about the nitpicking or arbitrary percentages, but the argument that riding the Giro a month before would not tax a GC rider come Tour is, well, outrageous.
.

nobody said that. I don't just dramatize it SO much.

Or do you disagree that Alberto crushes the opposition when he's 100 percent?

yes

Also, please argue why you think Alberto was at 95%. You say that I'm wrong. Do you have some sort of inside knowledge?

Thats not the case where the one is 100% right and the other one is wrong. no insider can evaluate this % precisely. it is just my personal impression.

 

[LaFlorecita]

yes

Okay, then we just have to disagree. Apparently you haven't seen the Giro last year and the 2009 Tour.

Thats not the case where the one is 100% right and the other one is wrong. no insider can evaluate this % precisely. it is just my personal impression.

Well, then don't say what I'm saying is not true. My personal impression is worth just as much as yours.

 

[SiAp1984]

Or do you disagree that Alberto crushes the opposition when he's 100 percent?

Those times are over. I guess the 2009 Contaor equals the 1997 Ullrich- never been seen again (2007 doesn't count as the true winner back then was taken out of the race) Unless the other top GC riders are not at the start in form (as in last years Giro), an 100%-AC has of course always a good chance of winning a GT again, but never again will he dominate like in 2009. Wanna bet? Oh, and of course Contaor was at his best in the 2010 Tour. His best just wasn't worth the same than in 2009 anymore.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Those times are over. I guess the 2009 Contaor equals the 1997 Ullrich- never been seen again (2007 doesn't count as the true winner back then was taken out of the race) Unless the other top GC riders are not at the start in form (as in last years Giro), an 100%-AC has of course always a good chance of winning a GT again, but never again will he dominate like in 2009. Wanna bet? Oh, and of course Contaor was at his best in the 2010 Tour. His best just wasn't worth the same than in 2009 anymore.

Lol you're pathetic. It's that I don't bet because otherwise I would. Avatar bet? He'll win another GT once with 4 minutes advantage min. *cough* Vuelta *cough*.

But of course only the Tour counts, because in the other GTs there's no real opposition. And he'll probably not ride the 2013 Tour, and from 2014 onward he's past his prime and he won't win anymore, so we'll never know I guess. Of course we'll know.

Oh, and of course he wasn't at his best in 2010. Stop kidding yourself.

I also want to know what you think is the reason he'll never dominate a GT again. Seems more like hope than anything else.

 

[airstream]

Okay, then we just have to disagree. Apparently you haven't seen the Giro last year and the 2009 Tour.

do you admit that anyone of registered here hasn't seen these races?

Well, then don't say what I'm saying is not true. My personal impression is worth just as much as yours.

when it comes to contador, im not so concerned and expressly biased like you.

Lol you're pathetic.

Take it easy, Fleur. "Lol you're pathetic" is not the level of normal cycling discussion. )

 

[LaFlorecita]

when it comes to contador, im not so concerned and expressly biased like you.

Oh yes you are. You're biased against him to make Andy look better. But that's okay. I just hope that the Andy baby fans won't think of it as a victory when he ends up winning more TdF's than Alberto. Everyone knows that Alberto could've won 7 in 2013.

 

[LaFlorecita]

do you admit that anyone of registered here hasn't seen these races?

Yes. It's just seems weird that apparently Alberto was at the same level in 2010 as in 2009 according to you. So I wondered whether you had actually seen the race. Or maybe just forgot about it because my Alberto beat your Andy fair and square.

Take it easy, Fleur. "Lol you're pathetic" is not the level of normal cycling discussion. )

So you think the guy wasn't being pathetic? He's one of those guys that hates everything that has the slightest bit to do with Alberto.

 

[airstream]

i handle 2009 tour and 2011 giro very differently. he was head and shoulders above the rest in the tour, for sure, though, schleck hasnt been so strong then yet. as for the giro, the opposition had a lower class initially plus probably all the guys, barring michele, were not in the best form. in fact, it was an anticipatory overall victory on the stage 8, followed by honorary escort to milan. undoubtedly he was being tired gradually, but not so much like all the rest. but honestly i dont think we'll see something kinda verbier from him in the tour in the future, especially considering the fact that after his ban hell be under double and even quadruple supervision of anti doping organizations. thus SiAp1984's point definetely has a certain background.

7 tours? hehe, such a thing could come only to your mind.

 

[LaFlorecita]

i handle '09 tour and '11 giro very differently. he was head and shoulders above the rest in the tour, for sure, though, schleck hasnt been so strong then yet. as for the giro, the opposition had a lower class initially plus probably all the guys, barring michele, were not in the best form. in fact, it was an anticipatory overall victory on the stage 8, followed by honorary escort to milan. undoubtedly he was being tired gradually, but not so much like all the rest

But I asked if you think Alberto was just as good in 2010 as in 2009? Because it seems that way.

 

[The Hitch]

Lol you're pathetic. It's that I don't bet because otherwise I would. Avatar bet? He'll win another GT once with 4 minutes advantage min. *cough* Vuelta *cough*.

But of course only the Tour counts, because in the other GTs there's no real opposition. And he'll probably not ride the 2013 Tour, and from 2014 onward he's past his prime and he won't win anymore, so we'll never know I guess. Of course we'll know.

Oh, and of course he wasn't at his best in 2010. Stop kidding yourself.

I also want to know what you think is the reason he'll never dominate a GT again. Seems more like hope than anything else.

Why wouldnt he ride the 2013 tour?

 

[Havetts]

Why wouldnt he ride the 2013 tour?

Won't get invited by the ASO, possibly.

 

[LaFlorecita]

but honestly i dont think we'll see something kinda verbier from him in the tour in the future, especially considering the fact that after his ban hell be under double and even quadruple supervision of anti doping organizations. thus SiAp1984's point definetely has a certain background.

That's if you assume he was doping. Also, if you think such domination can't be done without doping, how has Andy won the Galibier stage?

7 tours? hehe, such a thing could come only to your mind.

He could've won 7.
2007 - 1
2008 - 2
2009 - 3
2010 - 4
2011 - 5
2012 - 6
2013 - 7

Even if you do not count 2008 he could've won 8 in 2015. He would be 32. It's not probable, but not impossible either.

Such a shame he'll never be able to get more than 3 wins. He could've become one of the greats. Now he won't. In 20 years time only the fans will remember him. A shame, that's what it is.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Won't get invited by the ASO, possibly.

Exactly. They'll try everything they can to keep him out. Even with help of the UCI if necessary.

 

[airstream]

But I asked if you think Alberto was just as good in 2010 as in 2009? Because it seems that way.

visually, of course not. but who knows.. on the other hand, who was really good in 2009? only andy. in 2010 samu and menchov were very strong as well. possibly, the gap between contador and the others has reduced for a little while. it unnecessarily means that he got weaker. the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

[LaFlorecita]

visually, of course not. but who knows.. on the other hand, who was really good in 2009? only andy. in 2010 samu and menchov were very strong as well. possibly, the gap between contador and the others has reduced for a little while. it unnecessarily means that he got weaker. the truth is somewhere in the middle.

I don't think the gap has gotten smaller but that's just my opinion of course.

 

[airstream]

That's if you assume he was doping. Also, if you think such domination can't be done without doping, how has Andy won the Galibier stage?

that was a crystal-clear filigreed work of art, in the form of spear out of belgian gold with the huge luxembourgish brilliant.
doping is not our story.

 

[LaFlorecita]

that was a crystal-clear filigreed work of art, in the form of spear out of belgian gold with the huge luxembourgish brilliant.
doping is not our story.

Ehhhhhhh... Alright. Whatever you want.

 

[El Pistolero]

that was a crystal-clear filigreed work of art, in the form of spear out of belgian gold with the huge luxembourgish brilliant.
doping is not our story.

Andy has a pretty infamous reputation already from the U23 ranks . But even with he sucks and never will win a real Tour as we saw today in his "brilliant" time trial.

 

[airstream]

Andy has a pretty infamous reputation already from the U23 ranks . But even with he sucks and never will win a real Tour as we saw today in his "brilliant" time trial.

omg its SO low-minded to wish someone failure only due to jealosy and inability to acknowledge strength of the other guys.

Ehhhhhhh... Alright. Whatever you want.

my point on doping is extremely simple - a doper is not a doper until caught in the act. contador was caught and had a trail of suspicion before. or you offer to call a doper any rider?

Plateau de Beille is much harder than Terminillo. If Contador injected pace into the race, gaps would have been created by everybody separating out and trying to respond, because it's easier to ride in a group than to ride solo.

16km at 7.3 vs. 15.8 at 7.9. not too crucial. the average gradient itself is not a guarantee of bigger gaps. do you think contador's climbing edge would show up more clearly at 8% av. climb than on etna, for example?
i agree with you. maxime and jens set a good tempo. and during the first 1-2km of the ascent the schlecks were in the front of the peloton. but then frank somehow moved off in the rear of the pack. jens fretted and fumed and im pretty sure andersen ordered to attack,but andy moved to frank and started talking. i think he could have gotten away on that stage, but it would have buried frank's chances.

 

[El Pistolero]

There's a difference between wishing failure and predicting failure. Getting 102th in a prologue is a disgrace for someone who wants to win the Tour.

Ps: both Schlecks have a huge trail of suspicion behind them. Luxembourg just doesn't want to investigate it because otherwise they'd lose their two biggest stars.

 

[Froome19]

There's a difference between wishing failure and predicting failure. Getting 102th in a prologue is a disgrace for someone who wants to win the Tour.

Ps: both Schlecks have a huge trail of suspicion behind them. Luxembourg just doesn't want to investigate it because otherwise they'd lose their two biggest stars.

Who got 102nd in the "prologue" today? certainly not Schleck

 

[LaFlorecita]

Who got 102nd in the "prologue" today? certainly not Schleck

Lol he got 147th IIRC. Out of 176.

 

[Havetts]

There's a difference between wishing failure and predicting failure. Getting 102th in a prologue is a disgrace for someone who wants to win the Tour.

Awesome +1.