2013 Cleanest Peloton Ever

[Froome19]

On a lark I compiled a list of senior people of the WorldTour teams and their possible doping pasts.

Ochowicz is at BMC and USA cycling.
Riis at Saxo-whatever
Igor González de Galdeano Aranzabal Euskatel went head-to-head with Armstrong
Johan Bruyneel recently banished from Team Tandy/Trek
Katusha..... Ekimov.... Holczer.. suspicions abound.
Lampre-Merida Damiani and Mantova doping investigation
Movistar Eusebio Unzué Labiano did Delgado and Indurain
OMPQS Patrick Lefevere EPO veteran, legendary Mapei Podium sweep...
Sky Brailsford ... Hired Lienders, miraculously transformed riders mid-career.
Vacansoliel Hilaire Van der Schueren Long time DS, good epo years, hired Ricco!


Lotto Belisol Marc Sergeant <--I don't know about his record. I know he was a good classics pro and did not do great during the EPO years, the end of his career.


#IMHO less suspect
Matt White admitted at Orica. He's back. Hopefully he's not promoting doping
Amadio at Cannondale pretended he didn't know his riders were working with Ferrari. Need more on him if possible.
Garmin Vaughters claims his guys are squeaky clean, but doped and was okay with it up to a point.

I'm probably missing some stuff. Please fill it in.

Cleanest peloton ever!

Indeed apt title, check out previous year's and then compare the lineups with this year's. I think you will find this year's is indeed the cleanest if you are determined to look at it from that way.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

1. All of the old guard gone
2. TT power output < 508 watts (= Indurain)

Edit to add: Sustained 651 watts??? Gimme a frikken break. It isn't cleaner. It is a bigger circus.

Dave.

I'm with Dave on this. I see nothing to even remotely suggest this is a "cleaner" peloton. We have a muppet who used to zig zag his way up climbs now putting in Pharmstrong-like performances. Same circus. Different clowns.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

If there were a few teams who had a few riders who were capable of power outputs more in line with 15 years ago but were very aware of how suspicious that would look like to the trained eye, I wonder what that would look like.

I think what I would do in their situation would be to have those riders riding to a level that was deemed "possible" every day they spent in the saddle. This speed limit would still be some way below what they were capable of and as a result they would be be able to sustain it for months on end. I would beat the opposition through consistency. Never have a bad day. Ideal solution really - being near the top of the GC in every race rather than the old idea of hitting a peak in July that was only sustainable for a couple of weeks. Just what the sponsors want to see. Nobody would ever be able to point fingers because I could say it was much slower than the epo era and we only beat rider X by a small amount. It wouldn't matter that rider X was a different rider every day. Impressive consistency is a lot easier to explain than super fast times right ? Since everyone is obsessed with speed on the high profile final climbs I would certainly want to dial it down there but that's easily done by making the pace super high elsewhere to drain the opposition.

I will certainly be on the lookout to see if this ever happens in cycling

 

[Dear Wiggo]

If there were a few teams who had a few riders who were capable of power outputs more in line with 15 years ago but were very aware of how suspicious that would look like to the trained eye, I wonder what that would look like.

I think what I would do in their situation would be to have those riders riding to a level that was deemed "possible" every day they spent in the saddle. This speed limit would still be some way below what they were capable of and as a result they would be be able to sustain it for months on end. I would beat the opposition through consistency. Never have a bad day. Ideal solution really - being near the top of the GC in every race rather than the old idea of hitting a peak in July that was only sustainable for a couple of weeks. Just what the sponsors want to see. Nobody would ever be able to point fingers because I could say it was much slower than the epo era and we only beat rider X by a small amount. It wouldn't matter that rider X was a different rider every day. Impressive consistency is a lot easier to explain than super fast times right ? Since everyone is obsessed with speed on the high profile final climbs I would certainly want to dial it down there but that's easily done by making the pace super high elsewhere to drain the opposition.

I will certainly be on the lookout to see if this ever happens in cycling

Be handy if you had a power meter to keep an eye on at all times too yeah? Make sure you don't go over some theoretical, "human" limit?

 

[D-Queued]

Dave - I'm trying to figure out why you're bringing this up - Was there a report of someone taking disproportionate pulls during the TTT?

To me doing 59kph sounds fast, but not necessarily implausibly so, depending on conditions (e.g., favorable wind on one stretch, sheltered on the way back). It's hard to say what the actual duty cycle would be - one guy could be doing more than his fair share, but still just be riding the front for say 30%. Assuming sacrificial pulls earlier from a couple of guys, it seems like you could get a pretty fast average.

I think a lot depends on the conditions of the day, the quality of the road surface, how well synched the team is, etc., so in my opinion there's too much "noise" to figure out if there's doping or not. (I'm not arguing one position or the other: I'm just saying it doesn't seem like there's a clear indicator of doping or being clean from the TTT).

I dunno, you tell me:

“The boys did a technically good ride today,” said White. “Everyone was on the mark. I’m especially proud of Svein and Stuey [Stuart O’Grady] who both took big, long turns on the front.

All the pictures seem to have the same guy on the front.

Svein Tuft driving the pace and putting the rest of them in the hurtbox.

Dave.

 

[Ferminal]

All settled then.

Perfectly normal for one guy to pull at 59 kph for 25k.

Dave.

I don't get it

 

[darwin553]

I agree it is probably the cleanest peloton ever. But once a GC contender starts doing this for a whole climb in the alps or in the Pyrenees (minus the fall ) then I will start having some serious reservations

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PAjpt6871uk#t=36s

 

[DirtyWorks]

I'm not jumping to a conclusion based upon average speed.

I'm merely suggesting that this is an interesting place to start looking.

How about looking at the long list of mostly dirty DS's from the EPO era still running the WorldTour teams? I listed them all on the first post.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Krebs defines "cleaner" as "slower than previously".

He expertly dodged the fact "cleaner" are still faster than pre-EPO era.

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

He expertly dodged the fact "cleaner" are still faster than pre-EPO era.

With improvements in technology, diets, tactics, roads etc. would you not expect faster speeds over 25 years?

Just compare Lemond's tt bike and helmet in the 89 ITT, which were considered revolutionary at the time, with the bikes and helmets and skin suits every rider was using in the TTT. If Lemond was using the equipment that they have today he would have been even faster.

That's not to say there is no doping involved of course.

 

[D-Queued]

I don't get it

I forgot the smilie.

Dave.

 

[LaFlorecita]

"We've gone from 80% of riders doping before to 5% now." (Michel Audran (expert for French Senate, AFLD), La Gazette Montpellier)

So I guess we can say that either:

Anglos are just the best cyclists in the world

Or

Anglos are the 5 % that dope

Think both are equally unlikely. I prefer this option: this Michel Audran is full of ****.

 

[DirtyWorks]

With improvements in technology, diets, tactics, roads etc. would you not expect faster speeds over 25 years?

Were you around the many times that excuse was used throughout the EPO era?

The average speed metric is tough to use regardless of doping. The stages have shortened, they are always a little different,weather. I'm not saying there isn't a way to construct a good average speed metric but, often times it's not done well.

 

[DirtyWorks]

"We've gone from 80% of riders doping before to 5% now." (Michel Audran (expert for French Senate, AFLD), La Gazette Montpellier)

Do you have a link for that? There's been a bunch of French Senate activity on anti-doping for months now and very little of it makes it into English. My French Google-fu is weak.

 

[D-Queued]

"We've gone from 80% of riders doping before to 5% now." (Michel Audran (expert for French Senate, AFLD), La Gazette Montpellier)

So I guess we can say that either:

Anglos are just the best cyclists in the world

Or

Anglos are the 5 % that dope

Think both are equally unlikely. I prefer this option: this Michel Audran is full of ****.

Literally laughing out loud!!!

Dave.

 

[akrogirl]

I'm having a really hard time believing that the peloton is any cleaner after the performances of OGE and Cannondale. Can't wait to see what Sky comes up with to top today's unbelievable show.

 

[the sceptic]

I'm having a really hard time believing that the peloton is any cleaner after the performances of OGE and Cannondale. Can't wait to see what Sky comes up with to top today's unbelievable show.

It was impressive to see them not losing time to the 3 teams chasing behind.
Maybe they were extra "prepared" for this stage? Its not like they have any other stage to prepare for in the next few days anyway so might as well go full gas on this one.

 

[D-Queued]

It was impressive to see them not losing time to the 3 teams chasing behind.
Maybe they were extra "prepared" for this stage? Its not like they have any other stage to prepare for in the next few days anyway so might as well go full gas on this one.

They spent an extra 3m20s cooling down on trainers after the TTT where most teams didn't respect the value of a cool down after 30m of actual cycling effort.

Dave.

 

[Von Mises]

Were you around the many times that excuse was used throughout the EPO era?

The average speed metric is tough to use regardless of doping. The stages have shortened, they are always a little different,weather. I'm not saying there isn't a way to construct a good average speed metric but, often times it's not done well.

It may have been used as an excuse, but it does not mean that its not true. If we are talking about 1980-s, we are talking already about times 25-30 years back. It is not unreasonable to assume that there have been changes from quality of roads to tactis, techonology et etc. In fact, quite opposite, it would be unreasonable to think that 1980-s was magic decade when mankind achieved its peak and all progess stopped.

The problem is that doping has corrupted all data. We are not able to estimate all these legal changes, we are not able to separate legal means from illegal means (doping). We can speculate about these changes, we can even point to some changes but all in all it is almost immposible to measure these effects. Doping makes these hard to see, it clouds all other changes.

 

[BigBoat]

With improvements in technology, diets, tactics, roads etc. would you not expect faster speeds over 25 years?

Just compare Lemond's tt bike and helmet in the 89 ITT, which were considered revolutionary at the time, with the bikes and helmets and skin suits every rider was using in the TTT. If Lemond was using the equipment that they have today he would have been even faster.

That's not to say there is no doping involved of course.

Lemond averaged 34.0 mph, which was damn quick. The average that year for the whole Tour (which was shorter than usual) was 23.2 mph.

Its actually quite hard on the flats and downhills to increase your speed. For example, Lemond would need to increase his power by 40 watts in order to go from 34 mph to 35 mph.

Modern day aero helmets and wheels typically can save about 6-8 watts, so getting to 36.6 mph (which would require 130 more watts than 34 mph) is not likely. He might be able to cut 40 watts off his 89' though with a modern TT bike. If only he lost a few pounds.

 

[D-Queued]

Lemond averaged 34.0 mph, which was damn quick. The average that year for the whole Tour (which was shorter than usual) was 23.2 mph.

Its actually quite hard on the flats and downhills to increase your speed. For example, Lemond would need to increase his power by 40 watts in order to go from 34 mph to 35 mph.

Modern day aero helmets and wheels typically can save about 6-8 watts, so getting to 36.6 mph (which would require 130 more watts than 34 mph) is not likely. He might be able to cut 40 watts off his 89' though with a modern TT bike. If only he lost a few pounds.

Please also don't forget the downhill and tailwind part of Lemond's ride...

This was a circuit. I mean circus.

Dave.

 

[DirtyWorks]

It may have been used as an excuse, but it does not mean that its not true.

It wasn't true in the EPO era.

If we are talking about 1980-s, we are talking already about times 25-30 years back.

We're not talking about 1980's. EPO era, roughly the last year of Lemond's career to some other point after the rbc limits and approximately when the UCI decided to actually enforce some oxygen vector doping limits in the elites. Maybe 15 years of grand tours????

 

[Von Mises]

Lemond averaged 34.0 mph, which was damn quick. The average that year for the whole Tour (which was shorter than usual) was 23.2 mph.

Its actually quite hard on the flats and downhills to increase your speed. For example, Lemond would need to increase his power by 40 watts in order to go from 34 mph to 35 mph.

Modern day aero helmets and wheels typically can save about 6-8 watts, so getting to 36.6 mph (which would require 130 more watts than 34 mph) is not likely. He might be able to cut 40 watts off his 89' though with a modern TT bike. If only he lost a few pounds.

If I rember correctly later analysis showed that LeMonds helmet (or at least this particular desing and the way how he hold his head) actually slowed him down. Actually Fingnon wit his pony tail and without aerobars was maybe even more impressive (lack of aerobars cost him around minute).

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

If I rember correctly later analysis showed that LeMonds helmet (or at least this particular desing and the way how he hold his head) actually slowed him down. Actually Fingnon wit his pony tail and without aerobars was maybe even more impressive (lack of aerobars cost him around minute).

All this week Boardman on the ITV highlights has been in the wind tunnel showing the benefits of various improvements in aerodynamics, including drafting, bikes and helmets. What he showed was the current design of helmets with the holes produces more drag than ones with no holes to the tune of about 6 watts. Skinsuits reduce drag even more. Whilst it is not much on its own, over a 3 week tour of over 3000km it will make a significant difference.

 

[poupou]

All this week Boardman on the ITV highlights has been in the wind tunnel showing the benefits of various improvements in aerodynamics, including drafting, bikes and helmets. What he showed was the current design of helmets with the holes produces more drag than ones with no holes to the tune of about 6 watts. Skinsuits reduce drag even more. Whilst it is not much on its own, over a 3 week tour of over 3000km it will make a significant difference.

Sure holes are hurting drag, but can help to cool head, that could be significant too.