2015 National Championships Discussion

[TMP402]

Re: Re:

Another question: the Lincoln GP, whose course this race used, is some amateur race. Why isn't someone willing to step it up to 1.1? Good course for exciting racing, and the crowds exist to make it a special attraction for riders.

It's already one of the highlights of the British season. No need to change it and limit the number of British teams that would qualify to race.

The British domestic scene is a joke, the Tour of My Garden would qualify as "one of the highlights of the British season" - why wouldn't you want to do better!? The first rider from a domestic team to finish was 6 and a half minutes down on Kennaugh (and that was Owain Doull, who had a WT contract offer for this season). Competition provided by 1.1 races would improve the level of British racing, create more opportunities for British riders to showcase their talent and move up to pro conti or WT level, while keeping plenty of British teams involved. 1.1-rated Velothon Wales had Wiggins, Raleigh, Genesis, JLT Condor, NFTO, and One Pro Cycling. Even the London-Surrey race is 1.HC yet still had Gensis, NFTO, Velosure, Rapha, and Raleigh. Both had the GB national team too. 1.1 would be absolutely fine.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

Makes a lot of sense to me.

You could make a good race weekend out of the two, but doing so would really knock a big hole in the domestic scene. The likes of the Lincoln GP are its centerpiece races.

 

[TMP402]

Re: Re:

Makes a lot of sense to me.

You could make a good race weekend out of the two, but doing so would really knock a big hole in the domestic scene. The likes of the Lincoln GP are its centerpiece races.

But as in the post above, 1.1 allows most if not all the British conti teams to attend anyway. Even if people hated it being 1.1, going up to 1.2 would be an improvement.

 

[lemon cheese cake]

Re: Re:

Makes a lot of sense to me.

You could make a good race weekend out of the two, but doing so would really knock a big hole in the domestic scene. The likes of the Lincoln GP are its centerpiece races.

But as in the post above, 1.1 allows most if not all the British conti teams to attend anyway. Even if people hated it being 1.1, going up to 1.2 would be an improvement.

All six teams plus AnPost Chainreaction of Ireland and the GB U23 team can fit into a 1.1 race.

 

[Echoes]

Re:

Graciously empty.

Congratulations².
Enjoy it, mate.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

But as in the post above, 1.1 allows most if not all the British conti teams to attend anyway. Even if people hated it being 1.1, going up to 1.2 would be an improvement.

It has been a .2 race at some point, I believe. If it isn't now, I'm not sure why.

I'm not against there being more .1 races in Britain. Far from it. You are right that the domestic Conti teams need a better calendar, with more opportunities to race against a higher level of competition. But I don't think that the best way to introduce more pro races to the season is to upgrade the most important national races. Those races already have a purpose.

At the moment, a race like the Lincoln GP includes in its field all of the British Conti teams and the best amateur squads. The win is likely to be contested by the Conti teams. As such, it's important to those teams and also a big target for any good amateur who wants to show that he can compete with riders on UCI ranked teams. If it were to become a .1, most of the Conti teams would still be there but if the race was capable of attracting a decent international field, those Conti riders would be mostly bit players. And the amateurs would be gone altogether.

What's mostly happened over the last few year is the addition of brand new higher tier races. That seems to me to be a better way to improve the upper end of the domestic calendar.

 

[kenk09]

Re: Re:

Another question: the Lincoln GP, whose course this race used, is some amateur race. Why isn't someone willing to step it up to 1.1? Good course for exciting racing, and the crowds exist to make it a special attraction for riders.

It's already one of the highlights of the British season. No need to change it and limit the number of British teams that would qualify to race.

The British domestic scene is a joke, the Tour of My Garden would qualify as "one of the highlights of the British season" - why wouldn't you want to do better!? The first rider from a domestic team to finish was 6 and a half minutes down on Kennaugh (and that was Owain Doull, who had a WT contract offer for this season). Competition provided by 1.1 races would improve the level of British racing, create more opportunities for British riders to showcase their talent and move up to pro conti or WT level, while keeping plenty of British teams involved. 1.1-rated Velothon Wales had Wiggins, Raleigh, Genesis, JLT Condor, NFTO, and One Pro Cycling. Even the London-Surrey race is 1.HC yet still had Gensis, NFTO, Velosure, Rapha, and Raleigh. Both had the GB national team too. 1.1 would be absolutely fine.

You say that as someone who had never heard of the Lincoln GP until today. With all due respect I really don't think you're qualified to comment on the British domestic scene.

Turning one of the jewels of the British scene into a bog-standard race on the European calendar that European teams have no interest in is not going to improve the standard of British racing.

 

[jaylew]

Re: Re:

Cav proving his more than one-trick pony. Great stuff.

He's been clearly stronger than his early years for a while now outside of sprints. A succession of bad luck at the TDF in recent years means it gets overlooked.

Bad luck == Kittel

 

[Happy dude]

Re: Re:

Cav proving his more than one-trick pony. Great stuff.

He's been clearly stronger than his early years for a while now outside of sprints. A succession of bad luck at the TDF in recent years means it gets overlooked.

Bad luck == Kittel

When was the last time he sprinted on good form against kittel?

 

[robin440]

That Buchmann kid from german is crazy, last year he rode for a continental team and this year german champion and rides the tour !

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

At the moment, a race like the Lincoln GP includes in its field all of the British Conti teams and the best amateur squads. The win is likely to be contested by the Conti teams. As such, it's important to those teams and also a big target for any good amateur who wants to show that he can compete with riders on UCI ranked teams. If it were to become a .1, most of the Conti teams would still be there but if the race was capable of attracting a decent international field, those Conti riders would be mostly bit players. And the amateurs would be gone altogether.

What's mostly happened over the last few year is the addition of brand new higher tier races. That seems to me to be a better way to improve the upper end of the domestic calendar.

I'm not convinced because the addition of brand new higher tier races, where they don't have a tie-in to existing structure (eg the London classic taking on the Olympic RR link, and the Tour de Yorkshire capitalizing on the 2014 TdF départ) they have no history and their prestige is entirely artificial rather than being traditional like the Lincoln GP is, so you either get more traditional national calendar races being superceded in importance for the national Continental teams and them reducing the amount of attention given to them (because they are less important than the Europe Tour points-paying races) or you're left with .1 rated races that draw some distinctly average fields and disappointing coverage, like the recent Velothon Wales.

I would think that having a couple of the most prestigious national races at the .2 level at least (which would not affect the field they could draw other than allowing WT and ProContinental teams to enter if they wanted, and while they likely wouldn't, it could still be possible, see IAM and before them Geox entering the likes of the Berner Rundfahrt in Switzerland), would be fine. I think even going to .1 works as long as they can get the field for it; however at present I'm not sure if they would without losing a lot of the national characteristics. Perhaps make it still a focus point in that there would be - as is the right in .1 races - a national squad entered, which would then consist of the highest ranked riders on the national circuit not in the Continental teams?

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re:

That Buchmann kid from german is crazy, last year he rode for a continental team and this year german champion and rides the tour !

He was the closest thing to a surprise in their Tour line up. Less surprising now in retrospect. Having the German champion will do them no harm at all in terms of visibility at home during the Tour. They play up their nationality quite a bit anyway.

 

[Christian]

Re:

Jungels!!!!!!!

The double. Good man.

Jungels and Gastauer were a level above everyone else. They dropped all but 2 riders (Schlechter and Kirsch) on the first climb, then dropped another one (Kirsch) with 60k to go. The jury decided to cancel the last lap because the gaps were getting too large. Gastauer finished second at 1 minute, brave ride by Pit Schlechter (Leopard), who hung on for third. He got a little lucky that the last lap was canceled, otherwise Joel Zangerlé (Cult) might have caught him

 

[jaylew]

Cav proving his more than one-trick pony. Great stuff.

He's been clearly stronger than his early years for a while now outside of sprints. A succession of bad luck at the TDF in recent years means it gets overlooked.

Bad luck == Kittel

When was the last time he sprinted on good form against kittel?

Are you kidding? There is no clearer example of ownage in cycling over the last few years. To my knowledge, Cav has never won a sprint Kittel contested. Never. If we're generous and say "contested" means both riders finished top 20, the results are 11-0, Kittel.

Anyone who denies Kittel is faster in a straight up sprint is completely deluded.

 

[Happy dude]

Re:

Cav proving his more than one-trick pony. Great stuff.

He's been clearly stronger than his early years for a while now outside of sprints. A succession of bad luck at the TDF in recent years means it gets overlooked.

Bad luck == Kittel

When was the last time he sprinted on good form against kittel?

Are you kidding? There is no clearer example of ownage in cycling over the last few years. To my knowledge, Cav has never won a sprint Kittel contested. Never. If we're generous and say "contested" means both riders finished top 20, the results are 11-0, Kittel.

Anyone who denies Kittel is faster in a straight up sprint is completely deluded.

Its 9-2. They contested I think 3 bunch sprints last year. 0 this year. Last year it was 2-1 because one race Cav came 4th kittel came 5th. The other two were in the tour of Britain where Cav was injured and renshaw gave kittel some pretty amazing leadouts.

And biggest example of ownage? Are you for real? Did you watch the tour last year? Nibs won by about a week

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

At the moment, a race like the Lincoln GP includes in its field all of the British Conti teams and the best amateur squads. The win is likely to be contested by the Conti teams. As such, it's important to those teams and also a big target for any good amateur who wants to show that he can compete with riders on UCI ranked teams. If it were to become a .1, most of the Conti teams would still be there but if the race was capable of attracting a decent international field, those Conti riders would be mostly bit players. And the amateurs would be gone altogether.

What's mostly happened over the last few year is the addition of brand new higher tier races. That seems to me to be a better way to improve the upper end of the domestic calendar.

I'm not convinced because the addition of brand new higher tier races, where they don't have a tie-in to existing structure (eg the London classic taking on the Olympic RR link, and the Tour de Yorkshire capitalizing on the 2014 TdF départ) they have no history and their prestige is entirely artificial rather than being traditional like the Lincoln GP is, so you either get more traditional national calendar races being superceded in importance for the national Continental teams and them reducing the amount of attention given to them (because they are less important than the Europe Tour points-paying races) or you're left with .1 rated races that draw some distinctly average fields and disappointing coverage, like the recent Velothon Wales.

I would think that having a couple of the most prestigious national races at the .2 level at least (which would not affect the field they could draw other than allowing WT and ProContinental teams to enter if they wanted, and while they likely wouldn't, it could still be possible, see IAM and before them Geox entering the likes of the Berner Rundfahrt in Switzerland), would be fine. I think even going to .1 works as long as they can get the field for it; however at present I'm not sure if they would without losing a lot of the national characteristics. Perhaps make it still a focus point in that there would be - as is the right in .1 races - a national squad entered, which would then consist of the highest ranked riders on the national circuit not in the Continental teams?

I was a bit surprised to find that the top races aren't currently .2s. I'm not in any way opposed to making them .2s. But in some very important ways .2s have more in common with domestic elite races than they do with .1 or above races.

To some extent my views on this are shaped by the role the Ras plays in Ireland. It survives and thrives as a 2.2, but if it were ever upgraded it would cease to be the focus of the domestic scene and its long term survival would be in doubt (see for example the Tour of Ireland). This might be making me a bit too conservative, given that the amateurs are more important to the domestic scene here than they are to the British one. And also given that the Ras itself dominates the domestic racing calendar in a way that none of the races we are talking about do in Britain.

The British Conti teams do need a better calendar. The only Irish one doesn't, because they are essentially a Belgian team in that regard.

 

[TMP402]

Re: Re:

Another question: the Lincoln GP, whose course this race used, is some amateur race. Why isn't someone willing to step it up to 1.1? Good course for exciting racing, and the crowds exist to make it a special attraction for riders.

It's already one of the highlights of the British season. No need to change it and limit the number of British teams that would qualify to race.

The British domestic scene is a joke, the Tour of My Garden would qualify as "one of the highlights of the British season" - why wouldn't you want to do better!? The first rider from a domestic team to finish was 6 and a half minutes down on Kennaugh (and that was Owain Doull, who had a WT contract offer for this season). Competition provided by 1.1 races would improve the level of British racing, create more opportunities for British riders to showcase their talent and move up to pro conti or WT level, while keeping plenty of British teams involved. 1.1-rated Velothon Wales had Wiggins, Raleigh, Genesis, JLT Condor, NFTO, and One Pro Cycling. Even the London-Surrey race is 1.HC yet still had Gensis, NFTO, Velosure, Rapha, and Raleigh. Both had the GB national team too. 1.1 would be absolutely fine.

You say that as someone who had never heard of the Lincoln GP until today. With all due respect I really don't think you're qualified to comment on the British domestic scene.

Turning one of the jewels of the British scene into a bog-standard race on the European calendar that European teams have no interest in is not going to improve the standard of British racing.

When did I say that? That's just a plain lie and not the behaviour of a serious person.

 

[Broth3r]

Costa as champion, flying the colors in the Tour. Trying not to lose my head in a haze of patriotic fervor.

Things are as they should be. Just wish other CG contenders won theirs as well. Watching Kloden in 04 convinced me that's where the stripes belong.

 

[Ricco']

Re:

That Buchmann kid from german is crazy, last year he rode for a continental team and this year german champion and rides the tour !

Still don't beat Ciolek winning it being just 18 years old.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re:

Costa as champion, flying the colors in the Tour. Trying not to lose my head in a haze of patriotic fervor.

Things are as they should be. Just wish other CG contenders won theirs as well. Watching Kloden in 04 convinced me that's where the stripes belong.

You mean like Alejandro Valverde and Vincenzo Nibali?

 

[jaylew]

Re: Re:

He's been clearly stronger than his early years for a while now outside of sprints. A succession of bad luck at the TDF in recent years means it gets overlooked.

Bad luck == Kittel

When was the last time he sprinted on good form against kittel?

Are you kidding? There is no clearer example of ownage in cycling over the last few years. To my knowledge, Cav has never won a sprint Kittel contested. Never. If we're generous and say "contested" means both riders finished top 20, the results are 11-0, Kittel.

Anyone who denies Kittel is faster in a straight up sprint is completely deluded.

Its 9-2. They contested I think 3 bunch sprints last year. 0 this year. Last year it was 2-1 because one race Cav came 4th kittel came 5th. The other two were in the tour of Britain where Cav was injured and renshaw gave kittel some pretty amazing leadouts.

And biggest example of ownage? Are you for real? Did you watch the tour last year? Nibs won by about a week

By ownage, I mean one rider vs another rider over several races. Anyway, I stand by my 11-0 and can document it. Cav has never won a race in which Kittel finished in the front group.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Re: Re:

Nacer Bouhanni ‏@BouhanniNacer 25 min.25 minuten geleden
Sûrement forfait pour @letour .Côte fêlée ou cassée ... Je donnerai des nouvelles prochainement ..

Damn, one of the few sprinters with balls is out.....

See you at the Vuelta, Nacer.

 

[jaylew]

Re:

Costa as champion, flying the colors in the Tour. Trying not to lose my head in a haze of patriotic fervor.

Things are as they should be. Just wish other CG contenders won theirs as well. Watching Kloden in 04 convinced me that's where the stripes belong.

Agreed. It will be nice seeing a few NC jerseys with the front group on the climbs. Ok, Costa is more likely to finish 10-20, but still.

 

[Happy dude]

Re: Re:

Its a shame kittel has been dropped from the tdf squad. Because he would of had his butt kicked

 

[goggalor]

Re: Re:

Costa as champion, flying the colors in the Tour. Trying not to lose my head in a haze of patriotic fervor.

Things are as they should be. Just wish other CG contenders won theirs as well. Watching Kloden in 04 convinced me that's where the stripes belong.

You mean like Alejandro Valverde and Vincenzo Nibali?

Shame neither of those will be wearing a worthy NC jersey.