2015 National Championships Discussion

[Kwibus]

Re: Re:

Fun fact, sinkeldam and terpstra live in the same town and train a lot together. They also do sprint matches and Sinkeldam wins 99 out of 100 of those sprints

Yeah, but I'm guessing they don't do sprinting contests after a hard 200+ km training

Doubt it. Besides that you can't copy this situation. Sinkeldam came out of the last corner fast and only Terpstra held his wheel so he was the only one in his wheel. Sinkeldam who allready lead through that final corner started his sprint with 350mtr to go. After such length usually only Kristoff is able to do good sprints over 350mtr

Van Poppel, van Groenwegen who were gapped in the final corner closed in really fast, but were too far away.

Conclusion: everything worked out perfect for Terpstra in this sprint. Pretty much any other situation and he would never have won.

 

[neineinei]

Re:

Amazing ride by EBH!

He owes a big thanks to Bystrøm though... maybe more than a thanks

Just as it looked like the group of EBH, Breen, Bystrøm and the two hang-on Jokers were out of road to catch the lead Jokers and Nordhaug, The Coop Øster Hus car comes up with Ørn at the wheel, telling Bystrøm to pull. Bystrøm does a monster pull, spends all must, as if he was pulling for Kristoff, and EBH has the win in sight again. Bystrøm at finish says something like "maybe Edvald can do us a favour later". van Oudehouve (Joker manager) says something about Coop Øster Hus rather wanting EBH to win than them. Ørn on the other side says it had nothing to with that, that Bystrøm was just trying to get as good a result as possible for himself. Nordhaug is miffed, happy that EBH won, but still miffed.

Stake Laengen did a very strong race again, at least this time he got a medal.

Edvald will know not to try to ride for himself in Richmond.

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

At the moment, a race like the Lincoln GP includes in its field all of the British Conti teams and the best amateur squads. The win is likely to be contested by the Conti teams. As such, it's important to those teams and also a big target for any good amateur who wants to show that he can compete with riders on UCI ranked teams. If it were to become a .1, most of the Conti teams would still be there but if the race was capable of attracting a decent international field, those Conti riders would be mostly bit players. And the amateurs would be gone altogether.

What's mostly happened over the last few year is the addition of brand new higher tier races. That seems to me to be a better way to improve the upper end of the domestic calendar.

I'm not convinced because the addition of brand new higher tier races, where they don't have a tie-in to existing structure (eg the London classic taking on the Olympic RR link, and the Tour de Yorkshire capitalizing on the 2014 TdF départ) they have no history and their prestige is entirely artificial rather than being traditional like the Lincoln GP is, so you either get more traditional national calendar races being superceded in importance for the national Continental teams and them reducing the amount of attention given to them (because they are less important than the Europe Tour points-paying races) or you're left with .1 rated races that draw some distinctly average fields and disappointing coverage, like the recent Velothon Wales.

I would think that having a couple of the most prestigious national races at the .2 level at least (which would not affect the field they could draw other than allowing WT and ProContinental teams to enter if they wanted, and while they likely wouldn't, it could still be possible, see IAM and before them Geox entering the likes of the Berner Rundfahrt in Switzerland), would be fine. I think even going to .1 works as long as they can get the field for it; however at present I'm not sure if they would without losing a lot of the national characteristics. Perhaps make it still a focus point in that there would be - as is the right in .1 races - a national squad entered, which would then consist of the highest ranked riders on the national circuit not in the Continental teams?

I was a bit surprised to find that the top races aren't currently .2s. I'm not in any way opposed to making them .2s. But in some very important ways .2s have more in common with domestic elite races than they do with .1 or above races.

To some extent my views on this are shaped by the role the Ras plays in Ireland. It survives and thrives as a 2.2, but if it were ever upgraded it would cease to be the focus of the domestic scene and its long term survival would be in doubt (see for example the Tour of Ireland). This might be making me a bit too conservative, given that the amateurs are more important to the domestic scene here than they are to the British one. And also given that the Ras itself dominates the domestic racing calendar in a way that none of the races we are talking about do in Britain.

The British Conti teams do need a better calendar. The only Irish one doesn't, because they are essentially a Belgian team in that regard.

The Beaumont cup recently got .2 status and the Lincoln GP should also be looking for this as should the Tour of the Reservoir.

 

[TMP402]

It's going to be pretty awesome seeing the Movistar TTT - with three national champions.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re:

It's going to be pretty awesome seeing the Movistar TTT - with three national champions.

They'll all be wearing the regular kit. ITT champions are no longer allowed to wear their champion-kit during a TTT.

 

[lemon cheese cake]

Re: Re:

At the moment, a race like the Lincoln GP includes in its field all of the British Conti teams and the best amateur squads. The win is likely to be contested by the Conti teams. As such, it's important to those teams and also a big target for any good amateur who wants to show that he can compete with riders on UCI ranked teams. If it were to become a .1, most of the Conti teams would still be there but if the race was capable of attracting a decent international field, those Conti riders would be mostly bit players. And the amateurs would be gone altogether.

What's mostly happened over the last few year is the addition of brand new higher tier races. That seems to me to be a better way to improve the upper end of the domestic calendar.

I'm not convinced because the addition of brand new higher tier races, where they don't have a tie-in to existing structure (eg the London classic taking on the Olympic RR link, and the Tour de Yorkshire capitalizing on the 2014 TdF départ) they have no history and their prestige is entirely artificial rather than being traditional like the Lincoln GP is, so you either get more traditional national calendar races being superceded in importance for the national Continental teams and them reducing the amount of attention given to them (because they are less important than the Europe Tour points-paying races) or you're left with .1 rated races that draw some distinctly average fields and disappointing coverage, like the recent Velothon Wales.

I would think that having a couple of the most prestigious national races at the .2 level at least (which would not affect the field they could draw other than allowing WT and ProContinental teams to enter if they wanted, and while they likely wouldn't, it could still be possible, see IAM and before them Geox entering the likes of the Berner Rundfahrt in Switzerland), would be fine. I think even going to .1 works as long as they can get the field for it; however at present I'm not sure if they would without losing a lot of the national characteristics. Perhaps make it still a focus point in that there would be - as is the right in .1 races - a national squad entered, which would then consist of the highest ranked riders on the national circuit not in the Continental teams?

I was a bit surprised to find that the top races aren't currently .2s. I'm not in any way opposed to making them .2s. But in some very important ways .2s have more in common with domestic elite races than they do with .1 or above races.

To some extent my views on this are shaped by the role the Ras plays in Ireland. It survives and thrives as a 2.2, but if it were ever upgraded it would cease to be the focus of the domestic scene and its long term survival would be in doubt (see for example the Tour of Ireland). This might be making me a bit too conservative, given that the amateurs are more important to the domestic scene here than they are to the British one. And also given that the Ras itself dominates the domestic racing calendar in a way that none of the races we are talking about do in Britain.

The British Conti teams do need a better calendar. The only Irish one doesn't, because they are essentially a Belgian team in that regard.

The Beaumont cup recently got .2 status and the Lincoln GP should also be looking for this as should the Tour of the Reservoir.

I know I want these at UCI level but with no Tour of the Reservoir, the jewel of the Spring Cup part of the Elite Road series would be gone. The Chorley GP and the Wiltshire/Wilton Gp may provide good racing, but the Lincoln GP and the TotR both going up to at least .2 level would be disastarous for the British Calendar.


Who's the Irish Road Champ?

 

[Llirael Moroth]

http://rowery.org/2015/06/29/tomasz-marczynski-makes-it-three-in-sobotka/

 

[Christian]

Just saw Sean de Bie won the sprint for 5th in the Belgian national championships, from a group of 20 riders. Nice effort by the second year pro, after a tough 250 km race. He has had his first win this season, and a string of good results. He will definitely be one to watch in the future. I hope Lotto take him to the Vuelta, to make the next step.

 

[Eagle]

Re: Re:

Who's the Irish Road Champ?

Damien Shaw, a fireman
https://www.rte.ie/sport/cycling/2015/0628/711235-damien-shaw-wins-national-road-race-championship/

 

[TMP402]

I have a question, since I can't find anything in the UCI rules: do national championships have to be held in the country in question? I would guess not since there is a joint Czech and Slovak one, so there must be some room for improvisation.

 

[RedheadDane]

I kinda think there are, after all; it's a National Championship.
The Czech/Slovak championship is held in one of the countries involved, not like they go somewhere completely unrelated.

 

[TMP402]

Re:

I kinda think there are, after all; it's a National Championship.
The Czech/Slovak championship is held in one of the countries involved, not like they go somewhere completely unrelated.

I was just thinking: it seems a shame Froome never has and probably never will show off the British champion's jersey. If they engineered it as a _______/ style course held in February, March or April, he might win. And since there aren't too many finishes like this in the UK, they could hold it elsewhere... perhaps Tenerife.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

I kinda think there are, after all; it's a National Championship.
The Czech/Slovak championship is held in one of the countries involved, not like they go somewhere completely unrelated.

I was just thinking: it seems a shame Froome never has and probably never will show off the British champion's jersey. If they engineered it as a _______/ style course held in February, March or April, he might win. And since there aren't too many finishes like this in the UK, they could hold it elsewhere... perhaps Tenerife.

That's silly. They shouldnt' be biased and holding it on tenerife would be ridiculous. And Froome could win a hilly course if he wanted to (see Mur stage)

But its no big deal anyway. Contador has never been national champion. Nor has Sastre, or Evans. Nor did Pantani. Armstrong was but years before he became a gt contender.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

I kinda think there are, after all; it's a National Championship.
The Czech/Slovak championship is held in one of the countries involved, not like they go somewhere completely unrelated.

I was just thinking: it seems a shame Froome never has and probably never will show off the British champion's jersey. If they engineered it as a _______/ style course held in February, March or April, he might win. And since there aren't too many finishes like this in the UK, they could hold it elsewhere... perhaps Tenerife.

Just....no.

 

[TMP402]

Re: Re:

I kinda think there are, after all; it's a National Championship.
The Czech/Slovak championship is held in one of the countries involved, not like they go somewhere completely unrelated.

I was just thinking: it seems a shame Froome never has and probably never will show off the British champion's jersey. If they engineered it as a _______/ style course held in February, March or April, he might win. And since there aren't too many finishes like this in the UK, they could hold it elsewhere... perhaps Tenerife.

That's silly. They shouldnt' be biased and holding it on tenerife would be ridiculous. And Froome could win a hilly course if he wanted to (see Mur stage)

But its no big deal anyway. Contador has never been national champion. Nor has Sastre, or Evans. Nor did Pantani. Armstrong was but years before he became a gt contender.

This is true, but because of the timing Froome doesn't even enter in case it jeopardises his Tour. They should at least move it forward a month or two if they want the best riders to turn up. And Kennaugh holding it... the previous winners were decent: Thomas, Stannard, Wiggins and Cavendish, but enough with Kennaugh. That's my underlying (non-serious) annoyance really.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

I kinda think there are, after all; it's a National Championship.
The Czech/Slovak championship is held in one of the countries involved, not like they go somewhere completely unrelated.

I was just thinking: it seems a shame Froome never has and probably never will show off the British champion's jersey. If they engineered it as a _______/ style course held in February, March or April, he might win. And since there aren't too many finishes like this in the UK, they could hold it elsewhere... perhaps Tenerife.

If he wants to win a national champion he needs to learn what it takes to be competitive in one day races. I hope you're not serious. How can it be a national championship if it's held in an entirely different country? Hold it in Tenerife just so Froome has a better chance to win? This a bizarre concept.

 

[TMP402]

Re: Re:

I kinda think there are, after all; it's a National Championship.
The Czech/Slovak championship is held in one of the countries involved, not like they go somewhere completely unrelated.

I was just thinking: it seems a shame Froome never has and probably never will show off the British champion's jersey. If they engineered it as a _______/ style course held in February, March or April, he might win. And since there aren't too many finishes like this in the UK, they could hold it elsewhere... perhaps Tenerife.

If he wants to win a national champion he needs to learn what it takes to be competitive in one day races. I hope you're not serious. How can it be a national championship if it's held in an entirely different country? Hold it in Tenerife just so Froome has a better chance to win? This a bizarre concept.

Of course I'm not serious.

Edit: about holding it outside the country of the champion. But I absolutely would design a course to suit the best rider from any given country.

 

[hrotha]

The Nat championships don't jeopardize anyone's preparation for the Tour. They're held just before the Tour, but with enough time to recover afterwards. Nibali won the Italian championship and then the Tour in 2014, and getting the (usually many) new national champs together at the Tour for some pics has long been traditional.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Valverde also podiumed the Tour in his national champion's stripes this year, and Voeckler's odyssey in 2011 was in the tricouleur jersey. Fränk Schleck in 2008 is also to mention of course. Also some national champions, when the rider is of major status, don't get to wear particularly clear national kits - eg Valverde in 2008 or Indurain 1992. Several top names in the sport have never worn their national kits in the road race - Alberto Contador, Michael Rasmussen, Greg Lemond, Marco Pantani, Pedro Delgado, the list goes on. A lot of the time, pure climbers don't really get national jerseys, unless they are versatile enough to race a hilly nationals - for example, the 1997 Spanish nationals were on a circuit in Melilla (one of the north African exclaves) with no real climbs but a lot of short ramps and repechos which meant attrition was high and José María Jiménez was able to win - similarly the 1980 Moscow Olympics RR was on the Krylatskoye Ring, with no climbs longer than 1100m, but relentlessly up and down so the winner by a mile was Sukhoruchenkov, by far the best climber the Eastern Bloc ever produced.

While a full-on mountain nationals might be difficult, there are plenty of places in the UK that could host a national championship that Froome would have a chance to win, which sets him apart from, say, Rasmussen, as unless the Danes held their nationals in Vejle on as tough a circuit as possible, a course that favours him will be hard to find.

If you really want somewhere under British control where you can have a circuit that really helps Froome, there's always Gibraltar...

 

[Alexandre B.]

Re:

Valverde also podiumed the Tour in his national champion's stripes this year, and Voeckler's odyssey in 2011 was in the tricouleur jersey. Fränk Schleck in 2008 is also to mention of course. Also some national champions, when the rider is of major status, don't get to wear particularly clear national kits - eg Valverde in 2008 or Indurain 1992. Several top names in the sport have never worn their national kits in the road race - Alberto Contador, Michael Rasmussen, Greg Lemond, Marco Pantani, Pedro Delgado, the list goes on. A lot of the time, pure climbers don't really get national jerseys, unless they are versatile enough to race a hilly nationals - for example, the 1997 Spanish nationals were on a circuit in Melilla (one of the north African exclaves) with no real climbs but a lot of short ramps and repechos which meant attrition was high and José María Jiménez was able to win - similarly the 1980 Moscow Olympics RR was on the Krylatskoye Ring, with no climbs longer than 1100m, but relentlessly up and down so the winner by a mile was Sukhoruchenkov, by far the best climber the Eastern Bloc ever produced.

He was national champion the year before (and also in 2004 - year of his first crazy yellow journey).
Sylvain Chavanel was the national champion at the time.

 

[MatParker117]

Froome could just win the TT in top wick he'd eat dowsett alive.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

Valverde also podiumed the Tour in his national champion's stripes this year, and Voeckler's odyssey in 2011 was in the tricouleur jersey. Fränk Schleck in 2008 is also to mention of course. Also some national champions, when the rider is of major status, don't get to wear particularly clear national kits - eg Valverde in 2008 or Indurain 1992. Several top names in the sport have never worn their national kits in the road race - Alberto Contador, Michael Rasmussen, Greg Lemond, Marco Pantani, Pedro Delgado, the list goes on. A lot of the time, pure climbers don't really get national jerseys, unless they are versatile enough to race a hilly nationals - for example, the 1997 Spanish nationals were on a circuit in Melilla (one of the north African exclaves) with no real climbs but a lot of short ramps and repechos which meant attrition was high and José María Jiménez was able to win - similarly the 1980 Moscow Olympics RR was on the Krylatskoye Ring, with no climbs longer than 1100m, but relentlessly up and down so the winner by a mile was Sukhoruchenkov, by far the best climber the Eastern Bloc ever produced.

He was national champion the year before (and also in 2004 - year of his first crazy yellow journey).
Sylvain Chavanel was the national champion at the time.

Right you are, I might have been confusing it with 2004, although obviously the GC tilt in 2011 was the reason I brought it up (incorrectly).

 

[RedheadDane]

I suppose there could be some leeway in regards to where the National Championships are being held, so that for example the Danish Championships could be held on Greenland or the Faroe Islands.

 

[greenedge]

Re: Re:

[quote="

Of course I'm not serious.

Edit: about holding it outside the country of the champion. But I absolutely would design a course to suit the best rider from any given country.

If they're the best rider they should be able to win on an easy course still.
He rides on Sky who this year had 3 riders in the top 5, so they have the firepower to ensure the race is hard and that he can arrive to the finish on his own.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

I kinda think there are, after all; it's a National Championship.
The Czech/Slovak championship is held in one of the countries involved, not like they go somewhere completely unrelated.

I was just thinking: it seems a shame Froome never has and probably never will show off the British champion's jersey. If they engineered it as a _______/ style course held in February, March or April, he might win. And since there aren't too many finishes like this in the UK, they could hold it elsewhere... perhaps Tenerife.

If he wants to win a national champion he needs to learn what it takes to be competitive in one day races. I hope you're not serious. How can it be a national championship if it's held in an entirely different country? Hold it in Tenerife just so Froome has a better chance to win? This a bizarre concept.

Of course I'm not serious.

Edit: about holding it outside the country of the champion. But I absolutely would design a course to suit the best rider from any given country.

Fortunately you aren't in a position to create a course with intention of making it easier for one specific rider. Let him figure out a way to win on the courses that are chosen by the parties involved. He will appreciate the victory that much more if and when it happens. Froome is a multi-faceted rider that shouldn't be at too much of a disadvantage on any course.