2015 Tour of California May 10-17 2015 (2.HC)

[mrhender]

Re: Re:

I don't get the issue with Bonus seconds, altered TT etc...

I mean those are (sometimes) part of the racing and final GC..

You could also argue that Sagan being able to seek out the little opportunities is even harder when they become determing to the overall win and others have interest in declining him them..

Being able to cope with the pressure and seeking the chance by going full hard on the MTF yesterday and delevering the necessary bonus seconds today speaks of quality and not luck or bad rules.....

I don't think people are denying the victory to Sagan or saying that he doesn't deserve it.

The thing with the shortened TT was nothing to do with him, that was weather, and the organizers did the best they could. I might have preferred it had they done two laps of the course for the sake of maintaining the original balance, but I can't complain with the option they took as otherwise it would have been cancelled anyway and made it a one-stage race.

The thing with the time bonuses is not people complaining at Sagan, but complaining at the artificiality created by the bonuses not being consistent. If you apply no time bonuses, and everything is on pure race time, then the result is whoever was fastest on the road. If you apply time bonuses to all road stages, then it benefits all equally, because the sprinters will get the bonuses in the sprint stages, the climbers will get the bonuses in the mountain stages, and so on. Sometimes the bonus seconds settle the GC (such as the 2011 Vuelta) but it's fair. Here, however, in the stages Alaphilippe had the chance to win, he could not gain bonus time, and in the stages Sagan had the chance to win, he could. That bonus time that had not been available to Alaphilippe could have settled the GC, therefore the organizers' inconsistency creates a situation imbalanced in favour of one type of athlete over another. They likely did not expect that a guy like Sagan would be in close enough contention for that to matter, but because he was on stupendous form, it did.

Sagan was able to take advantage of a situation he did not solely create..
Despite everyone of his contenders being fully aware of what was needed to stop him he pulled it off..

The race could have been different if (insert hypethetical scenarios) but it wasn't..
And he won by obeing the same rules everyone else had to...

He won the race not only because of weird bonus rules or changed tt routes but also because he managed to be in the mix on every single stage.. That is remarkable because several different types of stages were on the menu...

I don't think you are the one trying to take something from him..
All though I know he is not your cup of tea it was more a general observation i responded to..

 

[phanatic]

Sometimes actors win Oscars for performances which weren't their most famous or best, but their body of work deserves one, so the academy gives it to them. Certainly Sagan is the most successful ToC rider after Levi. California loves a showman, and Peter is certainly that.

 

[Happy dude]

Alaphillipe was on Cabs wheel but wasn't brave enough and lost it. Alls he had to do was stay there

 

[Pricey_sky]

Re:

Alaphillipe was on Cabs wheel but wasn't brave enough and lost it. Alls he had to do was stay there

Nobody was able to follow Cav's wheel though, he won easily again. I know Alaphillipe has had an incredible week, but asking him to try and follow the best sprinter in the world at the moment (with Kittel having problems) is not going to happen.

 

[Happy dude]

Re: Re:

Alaphillipe was on Cabs wheel but wasn't brave enough and lost it. Alls he had to do was stay there

Nobody was able to follow Cav's wheel though, he won easily again. I know Alaphillipe has had an incredible week, but asking him to try and follow the best sprinter in the world at the moment (with Kittel having problems) is not going to happen.

Yes I know what you mean. But he would've been able to sprint for second place had he been there. He had no chance once he lost it

 

[Taxus4a]

Anyway there is not the same control in WT than in California, but the biopassport is always there...

 

[Jancouver]

I'm glad Sagan won. Time bonuses or not, shortened TT or whatnot, he deserved to win this race by the way he battled every day. Not the greatest field but at least the race was exciting to the very last inch of the race.

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Re:

I'm glad Sagan won. Time bonuses or not, shortened TT or whatnot, he deserved to win this race by the way he battled every day. Not the greatest field but at least the race was exciting to the very last inch of the race.

Agreed. The ascent of Mt Baldy was some of the greatest racing so far this year. However the route was probably a bit too easy in the sense that the flat stages were all very flat (or the finishing 50kms were), hugely favouring Cavendish. One more MTF and a longer time trial would also have been better. I think Sagan could still have finished on the podium if that was the case though.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

According to Gesink's power meter on strava, he rode 412watt on the final 8km of Mt Baldy.

So the level was not exactly low of the first 7 in front of him

 

[Jancouver]

Re:

According to Gesink's power meter on strava, he rode 412watt on the final 8km of Mt Baldy.

So the level was not exactly low of the first 7 in front of him

He also said "oh wow, one of the hardest stages I've ever done."

From my own experience I can tell you that the last section from the Baldy village to the top is not easy, especially after riding hard the whole day. No wonder the riders were popping on that section faster than a microwave popcorn.

 

[sienna]

Re: Re:

I don't know why there is such a disdain towards Sagan's performance.

I mean, his best shape has always been around ATOC - Tour de Suisse. He won a prologue here in Switzerland, he won a mountain stage here in Switzerland, he won multiple flat stages here in Switzerland. And Tinkov wasn't in charge...

here is how this forum works:

you like a certain cyclist : he is not only clean,he also comes from middle class family and has never been given anything for free,he is tough,NEVER sits on anyones wheel,always in attack mode and is also a model professional,role model for kids and his hobby is fishing with dad and grandfather where they share heartwarming stories sitting around campfire

you dont like a certain cyclist: not only is he on PEDs,he is also probably a communist and homophobe,arrogant,hates american flag and apple pie,hates dallas cowboys and is a fan of patriots and real madrid...oh yeah,he is also vegan - so pretty much the most despicable human being you can imagine

just work between those two definitions,it makes things much simplier

Or, rather, this forum works on the fact that some people think that acting like a self-entitled douche makes you a self-entitled douche, and other people think that acting like a self-entitled douche makes you cool and cocky, and those two groups will never be able to reconcile, nor will they concede to the other.

Sagan acts like a douche. You think he carries it off and should be allowed to get away with it because it's entertaining. I don't find it entertaining and think when he's a douche he should be called out for being a douche. I overreact to his doucheyness by throwing a hissy fit. You throw a hissy fit at people not giving him the love you think his doucheyness merits. Everybody throws a hissy fit at one another, then calm down. Then something else happens that has him at the forefront, and the process repeats.

WTF are you talking about? And "douche" is so last decade.

 

[sienna]

Re:

I don't get the issue with Bonus seconds, altered TT etc...

I mean those are (sometimes) part of the racing and final GC..

You could also argue that Sagan being able to seek out the little opportunities is even harder when they become determing to the overall win and others have interest in declining him them..

Being able to cope with the pressure and seeking the chance by going full hard on the MTF yesterday and delivering the necessary bonus seconds today speaks of quality and not luck or bad rules…..

Also it could be said that if Sagan knew the exact situation regarding the time on the penultimate stage he would have gathered up the necessary seconds.

 

[dicanio_michael]

Re:

I don't get the issue with Bonus seconds, altered TT etc...

I mean those are (sometimes) part of the racing and final GC..

You could also argue that Sagan being able to seek out the little opportunities is even harder when they become determing to the overall win and others have interest in declining him them..

Being able to cope with the pressure and seeking the chance by going full hard on the MTF yesterday and delevering the necessary bonus seconds today speaks of quality and not luck or bad rules.....

We are not talking about the wrong of bonus system itself, but the issue with bonus seconds not awarded to a single stage which is not a TT.

I know, no body would have thought it might be a problem, but it is a concern of equality now. How about a stage which can double the time gap in the future ? It would be fun.

Anyway, Sagan deserved it. He knew the rules and executed perfectly the whole week.

 

[dicanio_michael]

Re: Re:

According to Gesink's power meter on strava, he rode 412watt on the final 8km of Mt Baldy.

So the level was not exactly low of the first 7 in front of him

He also said "oh wow, one of the hardest stages I've ever done."

From my own experience I can tell you that the last section from the Baldy village to the top is not easy, especially after riding hard the whole day. No wonder the riders were popping on that section faster than a microwave popcorn.

WOW that makes Sagan and Alaphilippe performance there sounds much more amazing.

 

[Jancouver]

Re: Re:

According to Gesink's power meter on strava, he rode 412watt on the final 8km of Mt Baldy.

So the level was not exactly low of the first 7 in front of him

He also said "oh wow, one of the hardest stages I've ever done."

From my own experience I can tell you that the last section from the Baldy village to the top is not easy, especially after riding hard the whole day. No wonder the riders were popping on that section faster than a microwave popcorn.

WOW that makes Sagan and Alaphilippe performance there sounds much more amazing.

Nah, thats nothing. Just another day at the "office" riding 101.9mi in 5:00:44 and 11,579ft of Elevation gain.

 

[Jancouver]

Actually the "hardest stage" quote was from another rider (Jesse Anthony)

Gesink titled his ride as "Right spirit, great team. Good legs, no great legs."

 

[TMP402]

Re: Re:

What I like about the US races is the relatively small fields, with a nice mix between ProTour and Continental teams. That makes for some interesting situations every now and then, where strong CT riders can surprise, or like yesterday, when all of a sudden you only have 4 riders left with over 5k to go on a climb because everyone else got shed off the back. Theonly downside is that in California, it often is somehwat one-sided with Cavendish or Sagan taking all the wins

Reminded me of 2010 Tour of Turkey with Greipel, Greipel, Visconti, Visconti, Greipel, Greipel, Viviani, Greipel. And Viviani only got his stage because Greipel crashed.

My favourite for this was the 2013 Tour of Hainan: Hofland, Bos, Bos, Bos, Bos, Hofland, Bos, Hofland, Bos. Belkin were the only WT team, Hofland won the overall and, sadly for symmetry, also the points jersey.

 

[red_flanders]

Most entertaining finish that race has ever had. Interesting way to win a bike race, and a gutsy effort. What's not to like.

 

[Echoes]

Re: Re:

At the end of the day, Cance won that race because they made more or less one-climb stages to Serfaus (not very long) and a two climb stage with a long descent before the easiest side of Crans-Montana (not very steep) the only mountain stages to counter about 50km of ITT. Cance stomped everyone in the TTs and held on to a decent but not amazing field in the mountains (Tony Martin won the queen stage and the KOM ffs). Sagan here has been sprinting and climbing with the best as well as winning the TT, which though he's not a mug at them is far from the specialty for him that it was for Cancellara in 2009.

I know the climb to Anzère very well and I can tell you that it was real mountain, even up to Ayent, the hardest part of the climb was at the start. So it was Cancellara's credit to be able to carry his 85kg up there. Crans-Montana might not be that hard but Anzère/Ayent is hard. And ITT's are the ultimate tests in the cycling sport. They are races that don't cheat, you can draft. It's mano a mano. It means that Cancellara deserved that win, a hundred time.

On the other hand, even if Sagan won the ITT (but altered, which is in his favour), he also won it on time bonuses, which is as you say, artificial. Alaphilippe covered the whole distance faster than him. In my opinion he's the true winner, period. And for the guy who truly thinks I find excuse for rooting for my faves against a foe, I'll remind you that I already said the same 5 years ago: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2479&p=186226&hilit=Terpstra#p186226

 

[Netserk]

85kg?! Lol

 

[Rollthedice]

Was there any stage race won at the last sprint based on the photofinish?

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

At the end of the day, Cance won that race because they made more or less one-climb stages to Serfaus (not very long) and a two climb stage with a long descent before the easiest side of Crans-Montana (not very steep) the only mountain stages to counter about 50km of ITT. Cance stomped everyone in the TTs and held on to a decent but not amazing field in the mountains (Tony Martin won the queen stage and the KOM ffs). Sagan here has been sprinting and climbing with the best as well as winning the TT, which though he's not a mug at them is far from the specialty for him that it was for Cancellara in 2009.

I know the climb to Anzère very well and I can tell you that it was real mountain, even up to Ayent, the hardest part of the climb was at the start. So it was Cancellara's credit to be able to carry his 85kg up there. Crans-Montana might not be that hard but Anzère/Ayent is hard. And ITT's are the ultimate tests in the cycling sport. They are races that don't cheat, you can draft. It's mano a mano. It means that Cancellara deserved that win, a hundred time.

On the other hand, even if Sagan won the ITT (but altered, which is in his favour), he also won it on time bonuses, which is as you say, artificial. Alaphilippe covered the whole distance faster than him. In my opinion he's the true winner, period. And for the guy who truly thinks I find excuse for rooting for my faves against a foe, I'll remind you that I already said the same 5 years ago: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2479&p=186226&hilit=Terpstra#p186226

You can't know that. Sagan covered the distance in the flat sprint stages faster than Alaphilippe by several seconds, but they get the same time as they are in the same group. That's artificial as well, but something most people agree with.

 

[cineteq]

A well deserved victory by Sagan.

 

[Vino's Mum]

Re: Re:

Alaphilippe covered the whole distance faster than him. In my opinion he's the true winner, period.

Why? It's a race, with rules. Sagan won by those rules.

I guess another obvious recent example is Cobo winning his Vuelta on time bonuses, though a better (more extreme) example is Saronni's 1983 Giro win...

Thanks to three stage wins, two second-places and three third places ( 30, 20, and 10 seconds on offer) Beppe picked up a total of 2' 40" in time bonuses, to beat Visentini, who 'only' had a minute in time bonuses, by 1' 07". Those were the rules. Like this year's ToC, the man with a more than useful sprint (Saronni also won the points jersey) won the race.

 

[ppanther92]

If Zoidl doesn't *** it up on the Santa Clarita stage, losing 13 seconds, he finishes 4th... Damn!

But somehow always the same. Not the best positioning on flat stages and stupid time losses.

Back to relevant topics. Great effort by Sagan and rules are rules.