2016 Giro d'Italia, Stage 19: Pinerolo - Risoul (162 km MTF)

[phil-i-am]

Re:

I just rewatched Chaves cross the line and I have no idea how they clock it at 53".

You need to look at Nibali finishing. The clock didn't stop for 2 seconds or so...

 

[HelloDolly]

Yesterday people on this from had written Nibali off, Today it is like he will win the Giro ...madness

If you win 3 GTs you have that something else...its not always about the legs...its about the mind and the determination and the will never to give up

People on here see a good climber and he is down to win every GT forever.....Its not so easy as it seems for anyone

IF you can keep going and have a will of iron then you are a champion

Contador , Nibali , Froome have this ....

 

[Singer01]

Re: Re:

i've only seen the last hour, was SK with chavez and nibs when he crashed? if so is it not a bit gauche to attack the leader in those circumstances?

he was with them, but they were already attacking and Valverde was dropped. Kruijswijk just crashed in the worst possible situation.

fair enough, shame thats all.

 

[phil-i-am]

Re: Re:

I missed most of the discussion, but who was the Garmin rider that flew past Kruiswijk on the descent? Kruiswijk didn't even try to keep in contact.

Clarke

... and what a guy he is! What a hero!

If Carlton Kirby had been commenting today's stage you would have known immediatedly who that rider was.

 

[staubsauger]

Where was his team car when he crashed? If they'd changed his bike quite immediately he would've ended up in the Valverde group and probably had kept the pink jersey even!?

 

[Flat Out]

Re:

Where was his team car when he crashed? If they'd changed his bike quite immediately he would've ended up in the Valverde group and probably had kept the pink jersey even!?

I don't think so, he was very very bad after the crash, he has lost a lot of time from Valverde group...

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re: Re:

Where was his team car when he crashed? If they'd changed his bike quite immediately he would've ended up in the Valverde group and probably had kept the pink jersey even!?

I don't think so, he was very very bad after the crash, he has lost a lot of time from Valverde group...

Because he was riding on his own for a long time.

 

[Flat Out]

Re: Re:

Where was his team car when he crashed? If they'd changed his bike quite immediately he would've ended up in the Valverde group and probably had kept the pink jersey even!?

I don't think so, he was very very bad after the crash, he has lost a lot of time from Valverde group...

Because he was riding on his own for a long time.

To me he seemed to struggle on the descent more than on the false flat, he coulndt get those corners with enogh confidence. I could be wrong, timing was not that efficient with GPS

 

[rhubroma]

Re:

Yesterday people on this from had written Nibali off, Today it is like he will win the Giro ...madness

If you win 3 GTs you have that something else...its not always about the legs...its about the mind and the determination and the will never to give up

People on here see a good climber and he is down to win every GT forever.....Its not so easy as it seems for anyone

IF you can keep going and have a will of iron then you are a champion

Contador , Nibali , Froome have this ....

Indeed.

You have to feel bad for Kruwswick though. At this level descending, however, can be as crucial as climbing. Not every great ascender has the same capcity going downhill and this cost the Dutchman today dearly to say the least.

It's true Nibali has a champion's ability to fight through the tough moments and, in a discipline of vulnerability, was able to exploit that ability which the pink jersey lacks. Still one hates to see a crash on a descent condition the outcome so spectacularly. On the other hand, this is what makes the Giro such a truly spectacular race. It has the best (or most terrible, depending how one looks at it) parcours of all three Grand Tours. You really can't count on controlling the race as much as a dominant team in the Tour can, where the athletic level is though at its highest. But the highest athletic level doesn't always translate into the most spectacular racing. To the contrary it can kill spectacular racing, especially when the hierarchy has been established and, owing to the prestige of the Tour, teams start racing to save their placings rather than take risks.

The Giro, at its best, is a Greek tragedy.

 

[Red Rick]

Nibali was riding on a wayy higher cadence that the days before. You rarely see him do that. Last I remember was the Tour he won

 

[SeriousSam]

I thought he a high cadence (relative to others) earlier as well. I recall pointing it out the day he first attacked and was then dropped by Dumoulin.

Did he actually have an unusually high cadence at the Tour, or do we just all remember him vroooming past Nieve at Hautacam

 

[Jagartrott]

Very sad what happened with Steven, but those somehow 'blaming' Nibali, that's just crazy.
This was a mistake from Kruijswijk, not an untimely flat tire or something.

If Kruijswijk had a team, he would still be in pink.
(and if Nibali wouldn't have had that mechanical during the TT, he and Chavez would've been separated by only 20 or so seconds)

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

I thought he a high cadence (relative to others) earlier as well. I recall pointing it out the day he first attacked and was then dropped by Dumoulin.

Did he actually have an unusually high cadence at the Tour, or do we just all remember him vroooming past Nieve at Hautacam

Nibali hasn't been really consistent with his cadence of the years. Usually he's turning a pretty big gear rather than a small one. Especially when he's bad. Today he was all aero position and light cadence at one point, and I've only ever seen him do that in 2014.

 

[rehy90]

I think that Steven just forgot to eat properly after the crash and that cost him a lot of time. Im still hoping he will be able to come back tomorrow, but it is unlikely after today. Otherwise I hope Nibali will take it - he just has that something extra, that makes him worthy GT winner...I just dont see it in Chaves

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

What an incredible stage - Drama a plenty!!

I had foolishly written Nibali off and thought Krushweak had this one in the bag.

I'm so happy Nibs has bounced back and won a stage...back on the podium and now hunting down the overall.....tomorrows stage will be EPIC!!

A real shame for Krushweak and I feel for the guy....what a brutal turn around......very cruel sport sometimes this cycling.

 

[Jagartrott]

By the way: earlier in this thread, someone claimed that pro-cyclists have better bike skills than anyone here.
I do not agree, especially regarding descending. I bike quite a lot, have done quite a lot of descents, and you can see quite a number of pro-riders making very basic mistakes in descending. If those same riders try to stay with better descenders, that's when it gets dangerous for them. Zakarin is point-in-case. Pro-riders spend a lot of their time on the bike, but still there is way more variation between them in terms of bike handling ability than there is in terms of Watt output. I have the feeling that descending is also a bit neglected in training.

 

[Red Rick]

I think descending is a thing you learn naturally, aka at a young age. People often think it's weird that Dutch can be good climbers, but that's physiological talent. Descending on the other hand, is more of an acquired skill, and the Dutch generally start learning it later than riders from other countries.

 

[staubsauger]

Re:

I think descending is a thing you learn naturally, aka at a young age. People often think it's weird that Dutch can be good climbers, but that's physiological talent. Descending on the other hand, is more of an acquired skill, and the Dutch generally start learning it later than riders from other countries.

That's actually why Michael Rasmussen's technical skills were that impressive. Although being a mountain biker certainly helped him a lot. But for a lightweight guy from a flat country it was insane.

Apart from that one day in 2005 of course .

 

[Kwibus]

What a day...what a day. I'm gutted for Steven, he didn't deserve this, but it's part of cycling.

I do want some 'nuance' for Nibalis heroics, because if (And I really do hate if's, but I think it's fair in todays situation) SK didn't crash he might still have won, but it wouldn't have mattered that much. Nonetheless ofcourse a great performance by Nibali, you got to give him credits for his performance.

Chaves made the race really hard on the Agnello and SK said that he was on the limit there, but I think everyone was so that's fine ofcourse.
SK said he was planning on starting to eat and drink a bit for recovery and then just made a stupid mistake. So I don't think it was a matter of being on the limit regarding descending, but probably more fatigue which lost him his concentration a bit. Few riders never make mistakes on a descent though and it couldn't come at a worse time for him.

Apparently he's at the hospital right now as his body is hurting everywhere so don't expect anything from him tomorrow.

The race is wide open again and that's great for the Giro, but I'd rather had SK getting dropped then losing it this way.

Edit: I forgot to mention the epic fail of lottojumbo as a team. Why in gods name no rider in the break? There should've atleast 2....
The last week they have been so stupid about this. Always jabbing about it doesn't matter since they can't drop SK anyways. they really never thought about that he could actually get dropped or well...a crash??

 

[Kwibus]

Just watched Chavez post race interview. The guy looked absolutely drained. Still smiling though!

 

[Kwibus]

Van Emden saying it's a disgrace that Nibali attacked when the race leader crashed. What a dumb comment.....

I almost feel the need to make a twitter account and tell him to get his head out of his ass and maybe next time get into the break. Instead of blaming others.

 

[Jagartrott]

Re:

Apparently he's at the hospital right now as his body is hurting everywhere so don't expect anything from him tomorrow.

I hope he still gets the podium spot... (Chavez or even Nibali could still crack big time tomorrow)
And I agree that the Lotto Jumbo team was weak, not only in terms of riders, but definitely also in terms of tactics. They should've put riders in the break OR they should've ride them away 10 minutes, so that any help from team mates for Nibali/Chavez was less likely. It's not quantum mechanics.

 

[rhubroma]

Re:

By the way: earlier in this thread, someone claimed that pro-cyclists have better bike skills than anyone here.
I do not agree, especially regarding descending. I bike quite a lot, have done quite a lot of descents, and you can see quite a number of pro-riders making very basic mistakes in descending. If those same riders try to stay with better descenders, that's when it gets dangerous for them. Zakarin is point-in-case. Pro-riders spend a lot of their time on the bike, but still there is way more variation between them in terms of bike handling ability than there is in terms of Watt output. I have the feeling that descending is also a bit neglected in training.

Descending though is a particular gift. Have you ever raced with pros on a descent?

It isn't that simple. Going down requires a self-suredness at 80kph that not everyone possesses. Even among the pros.

I have and I can tell you that no matter how good you are uphill, if you can't descend then you have serious problems. Now, at that level, it becomes even more critical. It isn't that he can't go down fast...just not fast enough. They ride away, or you crash. This is a different skill, which has nothing to do with watts, or cardiovascular capcity, but space-time reactionary skills that either you have, or you don't. He doesn't and that was fatal, or nearly so.

You'd think that after all the suffering and the grit that this should be enough to carry you through, but alas then there is the descent, which is unforgiving and ruthless.

 

[staubsauger]

Re:

Van Emden saying it's a disgrace that Nibali attacked when the race leader crashed. What a dumb comment.....

I almost feel the need to make a twitter account and tell him to get his head out of his *** and maybe next time get into the break. Instead of blaming others.

Yeah. It's questionable how Nibali all of a sudden can pressure his contenders so hard, that they ain't fully focused anymore. You might argue about his ongoing luck when winning gt's.

But he ain't been attacking Kruijswijk after his crash. In fact I got the feeling that they descended even a bit slower in first instance. Chaves never really pulled directly after Kruijswijk fell. Scarponi and Plaza even seemed to wait a tiny little bit before they dropped back. When Kruijswijk had his bike change there was a situation Nibali and Chaves simply had to take advantage of finally.

 

[Jagartrott]

Re: Re:

Descending though is a particular gift. Have you ever raced with pros on a descent?

It isn't that simple. Going down requires a self-suredness at 80kph that not everyone possesses. Even among the pros.

I have and I can tell you that no matter how good you are uphill, if you can't descend then you have serious problems. Now, at that level, it becomes even more critical. It isn't that he can't go down fast...just not fast enough. They ride away, or you crash. This is a different skill, which has nothing to do with watts, or cardiovascular capcity, but space-time reactionary skills that either you have, or you don't. He doesn't and that was fatal, or nearly so.

You'd think that after all the suffering and the grit that this should be enough to carry you through, but alas then there is the descent, which is unforgiving and ruthless.

Yes, I agree that you have to have 'the gift' to be a good descender. I have always liked descending. It fills me with pure joy, and I am never afraid on the bike (only afterwards, when I think back). But I think you can train the poor descenders to become average ones (e.g. Pinot improved), and definitely tell them that they should not go across limits if they are afraid. But not much time is spent on that, I have the feeling.