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2016 Giro d'Italia, Stage 19: Pinerolo - Risoul (162 km MTF)

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Re: Re:

Jagartrott said:
rhubroma said:
Descending though is a particular gift. Have you ever raced with pros on a descent?

It isn't that simple. Going down requires a self-suredness at 80kph that not everyone possesses. Even among the pros.

I have and I can tell you that no matter how good you are uphill, if you can't descend then you have serious problems. Now, at that level, it becomes even more critical. It isn't that he can't go down fast...just not fast enough. They ride away, or you crash. This is a different skill, which has nothing to do with watts, or cardiovascular capcity, but space-time reactionary skills that either you have, or you don't. He doesn't and that was fatal, or nearly so.

You'd think that after all the suffering and the grit that this should be enough to carry you through, but alas then there is the descent, which is unforgiving and ruthless.
Yes, I agree that you have to have 'the gift' to be a good descender. I have always liked descending. It fills me with pure joy, and I am never afraid on the bike (only afterwards, when I think back). But I think you can train the poor descenders to become average ones (e.g. Pinot improved), and definitely tell them that they should not go across limits if they are afraid. But not much time is spent on that, I have the feeling.

True. You can improve descending by learning the tricks of the trade; that is learning how to take a line in the curves, breaking just enough to maintain speed while not locking up the wheels, becoming confident enough to throw the bike down into a cuve while caressing the breaks at an outrageously oblique angle without making the wheels slide out, if the equilibrium is correct...in short you can follow. But when the pressure is on and the stakes are so high, if you stuggle with this the natural ones just keep the pressure on and on, until either the descent is over and you've saved face or you loose ground, or you f-uck up and risk your skin.
 
Re: Re:

Jagartrott said:
Kwibus said:
Apparently he's at the hospital right now as his body is hurting everywhere so don't expect anything from him tomorrow.
I hope he still gets the podium spot... (Chavez or even Nibali could still crack big time tomorrow)
And I agree that the Lotto Jumbo team was weak, not only in terms of riders, but definitely also in terms of tactics. They should've put riders in the break OR they should've ride them away 10 minutes, so that any help from team mates for Nibali/Chavez was less likely. It's not quantum mechanics.

Or they should have rang round the night before like in the olden days and illicited some help...especially from IAM
 
Re: Re:

HelloDolly said:
Jagartrott said:
Kwibus said:
Apparently he's at the hospital right now as his body is hurting everywhere so don't expect anything from him tomorrow.
I hope he still gets the podium spot... (Chavez or even Nibali could still crack big time tomorrow)
And I agree that the Lotto Jumbo team was weak, not only in terms of riders, but definitely also in terms of tactics. They should've put riders in the break OR they should've ride them away 10 minutes, so that any help from team mates for Nibali/Chavez was less likely. It's not quantum mechanics.

Or they should have rang round the night before like in the olden days and illicited some help...especially from IAM

What saved Nibali was having Scarponi ahead, for when he waited for Nibali and then started the ferocious pace, Valverde was assassinated and that made all the diference.
 
I guess the days of waiting for you rivals after a crash are well and truly over. Although a mechanical like a dropped chain or a flat is even worse from that point of view, since it's not anyone's fault. It does leave a bitter taste though, that the race might not be won by the strongest rider, but I guess that's part of racing too. I just like to see a clean win, when someone wins because he actually outperforms his rivals.
 
Re: Re:

rhubroma said:
Jagartrott said:
By the way: earlier in this thread, someone claimed that pro-cyclists have better bike skills than anyone here.
I do not agree, especially regarding descending. I bike quite a lot, have done quite a lot of descents, and you can see quite a number of pro-riders making very basic mistakes in descending. If those same riders try to stay with better descenders, that's when it gets dangerous for them. Zakarin is point-in-case. Pro-riders spend a lot of their time on the bike, but still there is way more variation between them in terms of bike handling ability than there is in terms of Watt output. I have the feeling that descending is also a bit neglected in training.

Descending though is a particular gift. Have you ever raced with pros on a descent?

It isn't that simple. Going down requires a self-suredness at 80kph that not everyone possesses. Even among the pros.

I have and I can tell you that no matter how good you are uphill, if you can't descend then you have serious problems. Now, at that level, it becomes even more critical. It isn't that he can't go down fast...just not fast enough. They ride away, or you crash. This is a different skill, which has nothing to do with watts, or cardiovascular capcity, but space-time reactionary skills that either you have, or you don't. He doesn't and that was fatal, or nearly so.

You'd think that after all the suffering and the grit that this should be enough to carry you through, but alas then there is the descent, which is unforgiving and ruthless.

Not that I disagree, but that doesnt make it an untrainable ability. Of course some have more 'talent' for descending because they have more confidence and superior reactions but you can still train your descending and you should do if it's a weakness of yours.

Of course some riders like Sagan just have a special gift but most weak descenders should be able to improve their skills.
 
Re:

Kwibus said:
Van Emden saying it's a disgrace that Nibali attacked when the race leader crashed. What a dumb comment.....

I almost feel the need to make a twitter account and tell him to get his head out of his *** and maybe next time get into the break. Instead of blaming others.

It would be a disgrace, but Nibali attacked before, the race were launched, it was steven mistake to try to follow...if people is looking echar other, and someone hit a little Steven s wheel and he crash, than, it is not fair to attack...but it is not the case.
 
Re: Re:

Bushman said:
rhubroma said:
Jagartrott said:
By the way: earlier in this thread, someone claimed that pro-cyclists have better bike skills than anyone here.
I do not agree, especially regarding descending. I bike quite a lot, have done quite a lot of descents, and you can see quite a number of pro-riders making very basic mistakes in descending. If those same riders try to stay with better descenders, that's when it gets dangerous for them. Zakarin is point-in-case. Pro-riders spend a lot of their time on the bike, but still there is way more variation between them in terms of bike handling ability than there is in terms of Watt output. I have the feeling that descending is also a bit neglected in training.

Descending though is a particular gift. Have you ever raced with pros on a descent?

It isn't that simple. Going down requires a self-suredness at 80kph that not everyone possesses. Even among the pros.

I have and I can tell you that no matter how good you are uphill, if you can't descend then you have serious problems. Now, at that level, it becomes even more critical. It isn't that he can't go down fast...just not fast enough. They ride away, or you crash. This is a different skill, which has nothing to do with watts, or cardiovascular capcity, but space-time reactionary skills that either you have, or you don't. He doesn't and that was fatal, or nearly so.

You'd think that after all the suffering and the grit that this should be enough to carry you through, but alas then there is the descent, which is unforgiving and ruthless.

Not that I disagree, but that doesnt make it an untrainable ability. Of course some have more 'talent' for descending because they have more confidence and superior reactions but you can still train your descending and you should do if it's a weakness of yours.

Of course some riders like Sagan just have a special gift but most weak descenders should be able to improve their skills.

Don't mistake me. Of course you can improve. But there is something innate about descending well that not every rider possesses: irony of the sport. In the sense that the most "easy" part of riding can become a pitfall to even the most ferocious climbers. At any rate, a pro is a pro in the truest sense of the term when he can ride fast everywhere.
 
Re:

Lequack said:
I guess the days of waiting for you rivals after a crash are well and truly over. Although a mechanical like a dropped chain or a flat is even worse from that point of view, since it's not anyone's fault. It does leave a bitter taste though, that the race might not be won by the strongest rider, but I guess that's part of racing too. I just like to see a clean win, when someone wins because he actually outperforms his rivals.

Don't we all?
You can't expect Nibali and Chaves to wait after dropping all your rivals (except SK). If they waited everyone would've returned and all the work on the Agnelo was wasted.
If SK would've crashed when it was gruppo compacto and they attacked. Yeah that would've been quite disgusting, but they didn't so it's irrelevant.
 
Re: Re:

Taxus4a said:
Kwibus said:
Van Emden saying it's a disgrace that Nibali attacked when the race leader crashed. What a dumb comment.....

I almost feel the need to make a twitter account and tell him to get his head out of his *** and maybe next time get into the break. Instead of blaming others.

It would be a disgrace, but Nibali attacked before, the race were launched, it was steven mistake to try to follow...if people is looking echar other, and someone hit a little Steven s wheel and he crash, than, it is not fair to attack...but it is not the case.

Nibali wasn't attacking he was just descending at a good pace. Steven just made a mistake and I really don't think it was because they were descending like mad.
 
Re: Re:

Kwibus said:
Lequack said:
I guess the days of waiting for you rivals after a crash are well and truly over. Although a mechanical like a dropped chain or a flat is even worse from that point of view, since it's not anyone's fault. It does leave a bitter taste though, that the race might not be won by the strongest rider, but I guess that's part of racing too. I just like to see a clean win, when someone wins because he actually outperforms his rivals.

Don't we all?
You can't expect Nibali and Chaves to wait after dropping all your rivals (except SK). If they waited everyone would've returned and all the work on the Agnelo was wasted.
If SK would've crashed when it was gruppo compacto and they attacked. Yeah that would've been quite disgusting, but they didn't so it's irrelevant.

To sum up: the selection was made, the race was in full flight so nobody has to wait for anyone, least of all for an error of line. Pardon, but that was his f-ucking problem. And I say that with utmost empathy.
 
Re:

Lequack said:
I guess the days of waiting for you rivals after a crash are well and truly over. Although a mechanical like a dropped chain or a flat is even worse from that point of view, since it's not anyone's fault. It does leave a bitter taste though, that the race might not be won by the strongest rider, but I guess that's part of racing too. I just like to see a clean win, when someone wins because he actually outperforms his rivals.
Well, have there ever been this days in Italy. The Giro ain't the Tour after all. If the race is on, it's raced. That's what produced moments as Oropa 99 as well!
 
Re: Re:

rhubroma said:
Kwibus said:
Lequack said:
I guess the days of waiting for you rivals after a crash are well and truly over. Although a mechanical like a dropped chain or a flat is even worse from that point of view, since it's not anyone's fault. It does leave a bitter taste though, that the race might not be won by the strongest rider, but I guess that's part of racing too. I just like to see a clean win, when someone wins because he actually outperforms his rivals.

Don't we all?
You can't expect Nibali and Chaves to wait after dropping all your rivals (except SK). If they waited everyone would've returned and all the work on the Agnelo was wasted.
If SK would've crashed when it was gruppo compacto and they attacked. Yeah that would've been quite disgusting, but they didn't so it's irrelevant.

To sum up: the selection was made, the race was in full flight so nobody has to wait for anyone, least of all for an error of line. Pardon, but that was his f-ucking problem. And I say that with utmost empathy.

We agree.
 
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Re:

UkIdarnisonBigOneFc said:
Phil is that where all the action started? Zakarin, Kruiswijk, Snow and more? Thx!

Yeah, at 8:10 you can see Damian Howson and Aments Txurruka moving up the group with Chavito on their wheels. Starting from here it was thrilling till the very end. Have fun!
 
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Re:

Lequack said:
I guess the days of waiting for you rivals after a crash are well and truly over. Although a mechanical like a dropped chain or a flat is even worse from that point of view, since it's not anyone's fault. It does leave a bitter taste though, that the race might not be won by the strongest rider, but I guess that's part of racing too. I just like to see a clean win, when someone wins because he actually outperforms his rivals.
I understand its part of your philosophy(equal chances etc) but NO.Reasons same as above - his bike handling,race in full swing etc


Some people should seriously change their "right" doctrine because thats not a real world.
 
Re: Re:

Kwibus said:
rhubroma said:
Kwibus said:
Lequack said:
I guess the days of waiting for you rivals after a crash are well and truly over. Although a mechanical like a dropped chain or a flat is even worse from that point of view, since it's not anyone's fault. It does leave a bitter taste though, that the race might not be won by the strongest rider, but I guess that's part of racing too. I just like to see a clean win, when someone wins because he actually outperforms his rivals.

Don't we all?
You can't expect Nibali and Chaves to wait after dropping all your rivals (except SK). If they waited everyone would've returned and all the work on the Agnelo was wasted.
If SK would've crashed when it was gruppo compacto and they attacked. Yeah that would've been quite disgusting, but they didn't so it's irrelevant.

To sum up: the selection was made, the race was in full flight so nobody has to wait for anyone, least of all for an error of line. Pardon, but that was his f-ucking problem. And I say that with utmost empathy.

We agree.
Spot on. Having said that, I feel terrible for SK. It may be his Jean van de Velde moment, in one instant, game over...a chance that won't present itself again. He said it: He F***ed up. True. Sad but true.

So maybe somehow Nibali may end up winning the Giro. Doubtful but possible.The heist of the century. If so, if I were in his shoes, I would take a bow... he no longer belongs to the top tier.

Still, big props to Vincenzo: the pride of a champion. Tomorrow could be epic...
 
Re: Re:

rhubroma said:
Kwibus said:
Lequack said:
I guess the days of waiting for you rivals after a crash are well and truly over. Although a mechanical like a dropped chain or a flat is even worse from that point of view, since it's not anyone's fault. It does leave a bitter taste though, that the race might not be won by the strongest rider, but I guess that's part of racing too. I just like to see a clean win, when someone wins because he actually outperforms his rivals.

Don't we all?
You can't expect Nibali and Chaves to wait after dropping all your rivals (except SK). If they waited everyone would've returned and all the work on the Agnelo was wasted.
If SK would've crashed when it was gruppo compacto and they attacked. Yeah that would've been quite disgusting, but they didn't so it's irrelevant.

To sum up: the selection was made, the race was in full flight so nobody has to wait for anyone, least of all for an error of line. Pardon, but that was his f-ucking problem. And I say that with utmost empathy.

Just out of interest, if SK had a mechanical or was taken out by someone else, would you still say that Nibs and Chaves were right to carry on instead of waiting? Today, the crash was completely his own fault, so as much as I'm gutted, it was right to carry on.

But what if it wasn't his fault? By waiting, Chaves and Nibali in particular would have completely wasted some energy trying to gap Valverde, which equally wouldn't be fair on them
 
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Re: 2016 Giro d'Italia, Stage 19: Pinerolo - Risoul (162 km

Praying Mantis said:
Here we go! Will anything significant happen? Can Valverde deal with the altitude and the temperature? Wish I had something more exciting to ponder than the third guy in GC possibly losing his podium...

Could not see the stage live, but managed to watch it all now, spoiler free. Wow. I guess my wishes came true, and some quite significant things did happen, eh! Really sad for Kruijswijk though. Tomorrow will be all-out war...
 
Re: Re:

Tonton said:
Kwibus said:
rhubroma said:
Kwibus said:
Lequack said:
I guess the days of waiting for you rivals after a crash are well and truly over. Although a mechanical like a dropped chain or a flat is even worse from that point of view, since it's not anyone's fault. It does leave a bitter taste though, that the race might not be won by the strongest rider, but I guess that's part of racing too. I just like to see a clean win, when someone wins because he actually outperforms his rivals.

Don't we all?
You can't expect Nibali and Chaves to wait after dropping all your rivals (except SK). If they waited everyone would've returned and all the work on the Agnelo was wasted.
If SK would've crashed when it was gruppo compacto and they attacked. Yeah that would've been quite disgusting, but they didn't so it's irrelevant.

To sum up: the selection was made, the race was in full flight so nobody has to wait for anyone, least of all for an error of line. Pardon, but that was his f-ucking problem. And I say that with utmost empathy.

We agree.
Spot on. Having said that, I feel terrible for SK. It may be his Jean van de Velde moment, in one instant, game over...a chance that won't present itself again. He said it: He F***ed up. True. Sad but true.

So maybe somehow Nibali may end up winning the Giro. Doubtful but possible.The heist of the century. If so, if I were in his shoes, I would take a bow... he no longer belongs to the top tier.

Still, big props to Vincenzo: the pride of a champion. Tomorrow could be epic...

Heist of the century? You're being melodramatic. That wasn't even the most contraversial GC shakeup the last 2 years.
 
Re: Re:

carton said:
CheckMyPecs said:
DNP-Old said:
"mañana si le puedo ayudar a Esteban Chaves lo haré''

Uran is going to help Chavito tomorrow if needed.
Who pays Urán's wages?

Andro said:
I just rewatched Chaves cross the line and I have no idea how they clock it at 53".
Me either.

The last two camera-anges were not i synch timewise i noticed already when Nibali came through, could it have something to do with that?
 
Wow, what a stage. Just managed to see it all.

Like everyone else, I'm astounded Lotto did not send at least one rider up the road in the break.

Also, (and jokes aside), anyone any idea what Valverde could have asked Scarponi when he passed him to make Scarponi give a resounding 'No'? You could here Scarponi's answer but not Valverde's question? Also young Chavez needs to learn to ride behind a wheel and not ride shotgun when it's offered, I'm talking Nieve here in the last 2 kliks...

That all said, really bad luck Steve but a massive massive hats off to Nibbles...

Hope everyone has the beers and snacks in for Saturday:)