kittel smoked the peloton like nothing 
almost 8 bike lengths gap with time to seat up and raise his hands
unstoppable
almost 8 bike lengths gap with time to seat up and raise his hands unstoppable
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Re: Re:
Chaves and Orica would disagree with that statement
But you are correct that he doesn't really have the support in this race to help him along, Mezgec was off the back today and not in the finish leading him out yesterday so the only rider has been Bewley who really isn't enough support. Outside of the Australian cycling media and overly patriotic fans saying he was going to wins stages most others said this was a learning experience in a hard GT including the Orica interviews I've heard. I think even Ewan said he'd struggle to win in the opening few stages.
I don't get how anybody would suggest Orica dump Ewan when his contract is up
Gigs_98 said:
Chaves and Orica would disagree with that statement
But you are correct that he doesn't really have the support in this race to help him along, Mezgec was off the back today and not in the finish leading him out yesterday so the only rider has been Bewley who really isn't enough support. Outside of the Australian cycling media and overly patriotic fans saying he was going to wins stages most others said this was a learning experience in a hard GT including the Orica interviews I've heard. I think even Ewan said he'd struggle to win in the opening few stages.
I don't get how anybody would suggest Orica dump Ewan when his contract is up
Re: Re:
The guy who, in six years, has never beaten him when both have contested a sprint, and who now actively aranges his schedule to avoid him where possible.
When he's not on top form, Kittel is certainly vulnerable, because he seems to fall of a cliff a bit at times. But on this kind of form, he is absolutely untouchable. Cavendish would get nowhere near him.
Cavendish is your example of someone close to Kittel's level? Seriously?PremierAndrew said:DFA123 said:
Kittel was not on top form but Cavendish was?
For a split second, Cavendish was in front, before the road turned and Kittel with the shorter line edged in front.
And who are you putting above Cav apart from Greipel and Kittel? Bouhanni? Kristoff?
The point is I replied to the comment 'no one is even close to his level', and this year's scheldeprijs suggests otherwise
The guy who, in six years, has never beaten him when both have contested a sprint, and who now actively aranges his schedule to avoid him where possible.
When he's not on top form, Kittel is certainly vulnerable, because he seems to fall of a cliff a bit at times. But on this kind of form, he is absolutely untouchable. Cavendish would get nowhere near him.
Re:
Which is why I love watching him.
He's always got this "Golly, what I'm I doing here?' kind of look that I find really endearing and entertaining.
Gotta love Juan Antonio.
He's awesome.
HelloDolly said:
Which is why I love watching him.
He's always got this "Golly, what I'm I doing here?' kind of look that I find really endearing and entertaining.
Gotta love Juan Antonio.
He's awesome.
Re: Re:
I haven't watched a second of the Giro yet. I looked at the profile, knew what would happen, knew I'd hate it, did something else instead, came back to check the results - yep, exactly what I thought would happen happened, just like it did in 2014 when we were served up an equally execrable opening weekend. That is what the problem is - there are too many races where you can look at a screenshot and you've seen all of the relevant action of the stage. Having read through the thread, at least it sounds like briefly there was the hope something interesting might happen here, but it was seemingly forlorn.
BigMac isn't hating on Kittel for winning sprints. They're hating on Kittel because his skillset means that his success depends on tedious, dull racing, and because he's so good at it, it takes the one thing about a sprint stage that is actually fun (the sprint) and makes that boring as well.DFA123 said:
I haven't watched a second of the Giro yet. I looked at the profile, knew what would happen, knew I'd hate it, did something else instead, came back to check the results - yep, exactly what I thought would happen happened, just like it did in 2014 when we were served up an equally execrable opening weekend. That is what the problem is - there are too many races where you can look at a screenshot and you've seen all of the relevant action of the stage. Having read through the thread, at least it sounds like briefly there was the hope something interesting might happen here, but it was seemingly forlorn.
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You've seen that Dubai Tour stage with the dam finish? Or the Romandie stage? Kittel is nowhere near Ivan Quaranta anymore when it comes to climbing abilities.
Gigs_98 said:
You've seen that Dubai Tour stage with the dam finish? Or the Romandie stage? Kittel is nowhere near Ivan Quaranta anymore when it comes to climbing abilities.
I don't like sprinters unless they're classics specialists but I'm happy that Kittel won anyway. It's a pleasure to watch such a beast sprinting all those pretenders off his wheel. I would say only Greipel and Viviani can get close now.
Also great display from Trentin/Sabatini who have been doing a better job than some other bigger trains.
The highlight of the stage was definitely Tjallingi on the podium. Nice to see someone so happy with his racing. Who cares if it's a just a secondary jersey that he'll hold for exactly one day. Fitting day for his last day of racing in his country.
Also great display from Trentin/Sabatini who have been doing a better job than some other bigger trains.
The highlight of the stage was definitely Tjallingi on the podium. Nice to see someone so happy with his racing. Who cares if it's a just a secondary jersey that he'll hold for exactly one day. Fitting day for his last day of racing in his country.
Kittel to shock this forum and win the stage on Tuesday. Would be too cool to see the reaction of all the Kittel haters on thos board.
Would be too cool to see the reaction of all the Kittel haters on thos board.
Re: Re:
It's absolute nonsense to hate on Kittel because he's not as versatile as Sagan, Degenkolb or Kristoff. That's like hating Contador or Quintana because they're not as versatile as Valverde or Nibali.
Absolute rubbish. He's probably more versatile than 90% of riders in the peloton; it's just that on form he's unbeatable at one aspect of the sport - so of course he looks to focus on those races. So he's not good at cobbles, but has the most all-time wins at Schelderprijs? He can only win pan flat stages? What about the TdF wins in Corsica and Yorkshire? What about Romandie last week?Gigs_98 said:
It's absolute nonsense to hate on Kittel because he's not as versatile as Sagan, Degenkolb or Kristoff. That's like hating Contador or Quintana because they're not as versatile as Valverde or Nibali.
Re: Re:
Yes Orica are behind Chaves for GC..He came out on stage 1 and showed a great TT for him and is up for it
Weird to say they have no GC
Mr.White said:
Yes Orica are behind Chaves for GC..He came out on stage 1 and showed a great TT for him and is up for it
Weird to say they have no GC
Re: Re:
Yeah, the guy from One Dimension (or is it Dimension Data) took a flyer near the end and made things interesting. If not for some guy from Etixx who towed the entire field at 60 km per hour for gawd knows how long, the One Dimension boy-band guy might have pulled it off.
I don't get the hate-on for Kittel. He does what every sprint specialist does--keep his nose out of the wind until it's time to go to work.
Libertine Seguros said:
Yeah, the guy from One Dimension (or is it Dimension Data) took a flyer near the end and made things interesting. If not for some guy from Etixx who towed the entire field at 60 km per hour for gawd knows how long, the One Dimension boy-band guy might have pulled it off.
I don't get the hate-on for Kittel. He does what every sprint specialist does--keep his nose out of the wind until it's time to go to work.
Re: Re:
Gerrans winning is now a by-word for negative, conservative "wait for the race to develop" racing where everybody is too scared to make a move. His style of racing is effective, but relies on other people racing poorly to allow him the chance to play his one card. This means people don't enjoy watching him race, and the only races he wins are the ones that have been no fun to watch otherwise either.
Kittel winning has become a by-word for the most tedious, uninspiring of flat stages, because when we get interesting flat stages, ones with a few challenges here and there, those riders like Sagan, Degenkolb or Kristoff (or Bouhanni, as well) are the ones winning. His style of racing is effective (hence why he needn't change), but because it only works on pretty benign, insipid stages, and is predicated on suffocating race action so that he can play his one card, this means people don't enjoy watching him race, and the races he wins are ones that have been no fun to watch otherwise either.
Race organizers can try to do something about the Gerrans problem, but it's reliant on the riders being willing to race on the parcours they give them. It's a lot easier to do something about the Kittel problem, but it seems organizers quite like having a sprint superstar turn up to bolster the line-up so they give them a few gifts at the start of the race. I think that in his attitude about defending jerseys and riding hills Kittel is rather disrespectful of those races and traditions and don't think guys like him deserve a free-ride to the maglia rosa.
Oh, and he wore a skinsuit in a road race. To me, that should carry an instant two year ban.
But, like Gerrans in the hillier races, because he isn't as versatile as those three, he's kind of become emblematic of the worst kind of racing.DFA123 said:
Gerrans winning is now a by-word for negative, conservative "wait for the race to develop" racing where everybody is too scared to make a move. His style of racing is effective, but relies on other people racing poorly to allow him the chance to play his one card. This means people don't enjoy watching him race, and the only races he wins are the ones that have been no fun to watch otherwise either.
Kittel winning has become a by-word for the most tedious, uninspiring of flat stages, because when we get interesting flat stages, ones with a few challenges here and there, those riders like Sagan, Degenkolb or Kristoff (or Bouhanni, as well) are the ones winning. His style of racing is effective (hence why he needn't change), but because it only works on pretty benign, insipid stages, and is predicated on suffocating race action so that he can play his one card, this means people don't enjoy watching him race, and the races he wins are ones that have been no fun to watch otherwise either.
Race organizers can try to do something about the Gerrans problem, but it's reliant on the riders being willing to race on the parcours they give them. It's a lot easier to do something about the Kittel problem, but it seems organizers quite like having a sprint superstar turn up to bolster the line-up so they give them a few gifts at the start of the race. I think that in his attitude about defending jerseys and riding hills Kittel is rather disrespectful of those races and traditions and don't think guys like him deserve a free-ride to the maglia rosa.
Oh, and he wore a skinsuit in a road race. To me, that should carry an instant two year ban.
Re: Re:
Gerrans on the other hand wins races in a tedious fashion which have the potential to be really exciting. So I can understand the sense of anti-climax when he triumphs much more.
The other big difference is that Kittel is a phenomenen. He's possibly the most powerful road sprinter of all time and the way he just rides people off his wheel is a feat to behold. A Kittel win, like in the last two days, is watching one of the greatest of all time at the top of his game.
Gerrans is a decent opportunist with a fastest finish - there's nothing aesthetic or majestic in the way he wins races.
I think there are significant differences between a Kittel and a Gerrans win. Kittel wins sprint stages, which will nearly always be won by a sprinter. They're never going to be the most entertaning - but if they weren't won by him they would be won by Greipel or Bouhanni or Viviani in almost identical fashion - him winning isn't robbing the race of something more exciting. And you can lobby to take away sprint stages, but ultimately they are part of the history and fabric of the sport, and will always be prominent in Grand Tours.Libertine Seguros said:
Gerrans on the other hand wins races in a tedious fashion which have the potential to be really exciting. So I can understand the sense of anti-climax when he triumphs much more.
The other big difference is that Kittel is a phenomenen. He's possibly the most powerful road sprinter of all time and the way he just rides people off his wheel is a feat to behold. A Kittel win, like in the last two days, is watching one of the greatest of all time at the top of his game.
Gerrans is a decent opportunist with a fastest finish - there's nothing aesthetic or majestic in the way he wins races.
Re: Re:
Likewise, I don't dispute that Kittel is an incredible talent (I'm perhaps not ready to anoint him the most powerful of all time, but YMMV), but if I see a parcours he can win and I know he's on the startlist - I simply won't watch. I don't want to see one of the greatest at the top of his game if it totally suffocates the competition. If he wasn't there, the sprint would be more interesting. The stage might still be boring as sin, but I'd at least tune in for the last few kilometres to see who won.
Most Grand Prix races between 2000 and 2004 were watching one of the greatest of all time at the top of his game. However, watching the same guy win over and over after a bunch of cars held station for two hours wasn't very interesting, so lots of people didn't watch.DFA123 said:
Likewise, I don't dispute that Kittel is an incredible talent (I'm perhaps not ready to anoint him the most powerful of all time, but YMMV), but if I see a parcours he can win and I know he's on the startlist - I simply won't watch. I don't want to see one of the greatest at the top of his game if it totally suffocates the competition. If he wasn't there, the sprint would be more interesting. The stage might still be boring as sin, but I'd at least tune in for the last few kilometres to see who won.
Re: Re:
You do realize that flat stages have always been an important part of GTs, right? And you do realize that there are now a lot less flat sprint stages than there used to be in the past, right?
Kittel is the best at an integral part of road racing, why do you want to punish him for it?
And what kind of attitude are you talking about. You are making accusations that you can't back up with any facts.
Libertine Seguros said:
You do realize that flat stages have always been an important part of GTs, right? And you do realize that there are now a lot less flat sprint stages than there used to be in the past, right?
Kittel is the best at an integral part of road racing, why do you want to punish him for it?
And what kind of attitude are you talking about. You are making accusations that you can't back up with any facts.
Re: Re:
I certainly agree with the posts yesterday though, that it's probably best not to have consecutive flat stages on the weekend.
Also, without the flat stages, where are riders going to recover or take it easy? You can't have three weeks purely of hills, rolling terrain or high mountains - by the third week everyone would be going at a snail's pace and no-one would have the energy to attack. It would become an awful spectacle.Bavarianrider said:
I certainly agree with the posts yesterday though, that it's probably best not to have consecutive flat stages on the weekend.
Re: Re:
The attitude came from the 2014 Tour when he won stage one, and was asked about keeping it, and he said he wasn't going to try. At least keep up the pretence.
Of course, but you can create flat stages that aren't a guaranteed total absence of action, this has been proven in many stage races in recent years. You can create stages that might produce some semblance of interest on the days when you have the maximum potential audience instead of two back-to-back nothing days. And also, the days of huge amounts of flat stages (save for the Giro around 2004 when they were basically pandering to Petacchi) were before the era of the sprint trains being perfected, so the "strangle the life out of the race" technique hadn't really taken off and it was much more unpredictable than it often is nowadays. Yes, Kittel is hardly the first in that position - arguably Cipo was though I'm sure somebody will be able to point to an earlier sprinter who utilized that technique - but he's just the one that happens to be winning now. My arguments were exactly the same when it was Cavendish, and will remain exactly the same when Kittel's burst deteriorates and he's overtaken by another new kid on the block who gets GT stages designed so they can take the leader's jersey but goes up hills about as successfully as water.Bavarianrider said:
The attitude came from the 2014 Tour when he won stage one, and was asked about keeping it, and he said he wasn't going to try. At least keep up the pretence.
Re: Re:
ps: I see you didnt argue with that stage but there were people who did.
Oh please don't argue with the Dubai Tour. If a stage is pan flat and has a short ramp at the end its not about climbing but still about who has the most power at the end of the stage (and as we all know Kittel didnt even win the stage so the harder finish still was enough that he wasnt able to win, and I was only talking about winning). About the other stages, yes it's good that he was able to win those stages but the whole argument is about Kittel being a boring rider because he can only win a stage where nothing big happened on the climbs earlier. And please just look at the profiles of the 1st stages of the tour 2013/14. Do you really want to say that he is a multidimensional rider because he was able to win this stage?Bye Bye Bicycle said:
ps: I see you didnt argue with that stage but there were people who did.
Re: Re:
Okay I forgot about Chaves but my post was actually about Ewan who doesnt get enough support from Orica and I don't think Chaves is such a big favorite that he is a good reason to give Ewan less support.HelloDolly said:
Will its hard ot have 2 masters ...just ask Ella Viviani who is in a worst position than Ewan and Rod Ellingworth basically just said he knows the score (as in lump it or like it) and he will do his work at beginning of mountians stages
Caleb Ewan is on a learning curve ...if he can hold wheels and get up three then he should be pleased
If it was an uphill sprint finish (not too long) then he could do a lot better
Re:
It's because this Giro is Tjallingis final race. He will retire once the Giro is over. Add the fact that they are racing in the province he lives and that he's an incredible likeable guy and then he gets a looooot of support and he's enjoying himself incredibly because of the amount of cheering he gets.
Pantani_lives said:
It's because this Giro is Tjallingis final race. He will retire once the Giro is over. Add the fact that they are racing in the province he lives and that he's an incredible likeable guy and then he gets a looooot of support and he's enjoying himself incredibly because of the amount of cheering he gets.
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