2016 TdF, Stage 10: Escaldes-Engordany → Revel (197km)

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May 29, 2015
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benzwire said:
Andro said:
Pretty awful tactics by Orica, they almost threw away the win despite having 3 riders, but Michael Gerrans managed to save it in the end.
Pretty awful tactics that resulted in a win? So Matthews should have wasted more energy in the win just to appease a bunch of armchair forum critics? I think they did what they could and it worked. Go ride your bike son.
"it resulted in a win so it must be perfect tactics herp derppp"

If I get an A in a test by putting in random answers, does that mean putting in random answers is the perfect tactic in a test? According to you, the answer is yes.

They could have easily lost it. They arrived in a sprint with a Dumoulin and GVA who had both sat on wheels the entire way. Sagan almost beat Matthews but started his sprint too late after getting boxed in. There were definitely other ways they could have played it that would have given them a higher probability of winning the stage.
 
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Andro said:
DFA123 said:
Andro said:
DFA123 said:
Andro said:
Pretty awful tactics by Orica, they almost threw away the win despite having 3 riders, but Michael Gerrans managed to save it in the end.

No idea what GVA was doing.
They only nearly lost it because Matthews got boxed in. But he was so much fresher than everyone else, that he still won pretty comfortably in the end. I'd say that's the mark of excellent tactics - keeping your sprinter fresh for the finale.
There was plenty of ways that sprint could have gone wrong. Matthews wasn't much fresher than everyone else. Dumoulin and GVA also sat on wheels the entire way. And in the end, Matthews didn't really win the sprint all that comfortably.
So in what way was it awful tactics; do you think they should have won it a different way? Matthews was celebrating 10 metres from the line - that's pretty comfortable as far as sprints go.
It was awful because they put all their money on one horse. They burned out 2/3 of their riders. If Matthews had lost the sprint(which not that unlikely the way it played out), it would have been up there with Stannard beating Etixx.

People on here are way too results oriented. A tactic wasn't necessarily "perfect" just because you won. That's simplistic thinking.
All of their men played a role - they didn't burn them. Durbridge did most of the early work to make sure the Nibali group couldn't get back on. Then Impey repeatedly did hard attacks, forcing Sagan - the only man who could beat Matthews in a sprint - to burn himself out chasing them down. Then Matthews - relatively fresh from staying out of the wind all day - delivered by far the fastest sprint.

How else do you think they could have used their men better?
 
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Andro said:
People on here are way too results oriented. A tactic wasn't necessarily "perfect" just because you won. That's simplistic thinking.
Hi! Welcome to sports. We have two types of fans. Type A thinks that whomever won must have done everything right, because they won. And Type B thinks that whomever won must have either done so beautifully or cheated the universe in some way. The rest of us aren't real sports fans, since we're not smart enough to grasp either of these universal truths.
 
Jun 30, 2012
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SKSemtex said:
Sagan pretty happy in the team bus.
Yep. Back into his proper jersey. The day went exactly as planned (almost).

(My main issue with Matthews is that he's boring. He's not Greipel/Kittel/Cav fast, so isn't exciting from that perspective, and he rarely risks anything for more creative wins. I tend to like riders that try and fail heroically. Stannard, for example. Obviously good tactics today from OBE, but that doesn't make it fun to watch when he's not your favourite rider.)
 
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Andro said:
benzwire said:
Andro said:
Pretty awful tactics by Orica, they almost threw away the win despite having 3 riders, but Michael Gerrans managed to save it in the end.
Pretty awful tactics that resulted in a win? So Matthews should have wasted more energy in the win just to appease a bunch of armchair forum critics? I think they did what they could and it worked. Go ride your bike son.
"it resulted in a win so it must be perfect tactics herp derppp"

If I get an A in a test by putting in random answers, does that mean putting in random answers is the perfect tactic in a test? According to you, the answer is yes.

They could have easily lost it. They arrived in a sprint with a Dumoulin and GVA who had both sat on wheels the entire way. Sagan almost beat Matthews but started his sprint too late after getting boxed in. There were definitely other ways they could have played it that would have given them a higher probability of winning the stage.
Agree, I was also sceptic when they burned Durbridge for no reason since they had 2 minutes down at that point. Then Impey obviously tried a few times and when that failed, I think setting the sprint up was the right move, but they coulda used Durbridge much better. Then again, maybe Matthews was just THAT confident and then I think you should believe him.
 
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Valv.Piti said:
Andro said:
benzwire said:
Andro said:
Pretty awful tactics by Orica, they almost threw away the win despite having 3 riders, but Michael Gerrans managed to save it in the end.
Pretty awful tactics that resulted in a win? So Matthews should have wasted more energy in the win just to appease a bunch of armchair forum critics? I think they did what they could and it worked. Go ride your bike son.
"it resulted in a win so it must be perfect tactics herp derppp"

If I get an A in a test by putting in random answers, does that mean putting in random answers is the perfect tactic in a test? According to you, the answer is yes.

They could have easily lost it. They arrived in a sprint with a Dumoulin and GVA who had both sat on wheels the entire way. Sagan almost beat Matthews but started his sprint too late after getting boxed in. There were definitely other ways they could have played it that would have given them a higher probability of winning the stage.
Agree, I was also sceptic when they burned Durbridge for no reason since they had 2 minutes down at that point. Then Impey obviously tried a few times and when that failed, I think setting the sprint up was the right move, but they coulda used Durbridge much better. Then again, maybe Matthews was just THAT confident and then I think you should believe him.
Impey's attacks didn't fail at all. There was only one way they could have failed - if someone other than Sagan closed the gap. Sagan closing the gap and burning himself out was what they wanted. They knew Matthews could easily win a sprint against the other riders there.

With Durbridge, I think he was cooked. He was going to drop on the climb whatever, so they figured best use was for him to keep a high pace on the run in to it, so no-one could try to go solo from before the climb.
 
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doperhopper said:
come on gentlemen, at least Matthews is not a complete Gerrans - at least he he tried to attack once!
That's my main issue with the tactics. Attacking uphill with Durbidge, Impey and Matthews against EBH, GVA and Sagan wasn't the best way to play it, IMHO. Again, I may be wrong, Matt White obviously knows a fair bit about cycling, but Matthews winning it doesn't prove that they played it perfectly. It does prove that Matthews is a pretty good rider and Orica is a pretty good team.
 
Aug 15, 2012
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Krokro said:
I understand basic tactics and how Orica perfectly played it. But I surely can dislike that panache-less win. Anyway, great breakaway action at the end of the day.
This.
 
Sep 17, 2015
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sir fly said:
Buffalo Soldier said:
If I understand correctly, what some are saying is team tactics are a bad thing? Maybe we should shift to single rider teams.
Back to the good old days.
The good old days weren't that great - Riders just had to pretend they were not helping each other out (for money, for a favour next time or whatever). 'Domestique' started out as an insult after all.
 
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yaco said:
An excellent team strategy by OBE - Hats off to the team - The reason why Sagan attacked with 25kms was to blow out the OBE riders It was an appropriate tactic by sagan.
Who cares about the win. it was fun. Seeing him dropping those wheel suckers was the best part of the race for me. I like Nibali but he deserved it.

Staying in the group it could be completely different story up the last climb.
 
I tend to agree that Orica's tactics was not perfect. I think Impey shouldn't attack uphill so many times, rather keep some energy for flat, where energy loss for whoever was going to chase him would've been bigger compared to Matthews who would just follow, than uphill, where following wheels gives less advantage because of lesser drag difference on lower speeds. Also maybe he should try something different for his last attack when he already realised he couldn't gap Sagan even for a moment attacking from 6th.

I also think Durbridge could've been better use if he tried an attack before the last climb instead of setting the pace. That way you could either force more energy loss for Sagan or keep Impey fresh for a bit longer (or both).

But I don't know everything, maybe Durbridge was already cooked or something. In the end they've won the stage so they've got what they wanted.
 
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DFA123 said:
Red Rick said:
DFA123 said:
Well played Orica. Deserved that in the end for perfect tactics. Sagan played into their hands a bit, responding to all the attacks so aggressively.
Sagan has the green to think about. 2nd place actually is better then 3rd or lower for him
Yeah, fair point. Still think he could have won the stage though if he'd just held a bit back. Also, probably not a good idea to split the break in the first place - got too outnumbered by Orica as a result.
He was one against five and he would be one against fifteen oportunists and would be force respond to all atacks. It was wise decision IMO.
 
Mar 15, 2016
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DFA123 said:
trucido said:
Hugo Koblet said:
Great win by Matthews. Wheelsucking? Come on! I'm not sure OGE's tactics today were the best but it panned out at the end after all. Sagan spent way too much energy. I think he's becoming too self-confident. What was GVA doing?
That's not a great win, it would have been a big fail if he didn't with the rider advantage.

Sagan weighed up that the points for 2nd-3rd were worth more than an all or nothing approach for the stage.
No way. He'd have taken a stage win over an extra 10-15 points every single time. He just burnt himself out following all the attacks. Should have either bluffed and forced someone else to chase Impey (if no-one did he'd have finished 2nd/3rd from the group anyway), or gone on a hard attack himself. What he did was a bit ridiculous - burn himself out.
He was pretty happy in his interview post-race, so I'd say mission accomplished for the day.
 
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trucido said:
DFA123 said:
trucido said:
Hugo Koblet said:
Great win by Matthews. Wheelsucking? Come on! I'm not sure OGE's tactics today were the best but it panned out at the end after all. Sagan spent way too much energy. I think he's becoming too self-confident. What was GVA doing?
That's not a great win, it would have been a big fail if he didn't with the rider advantage.

Sagan weighed up that the points for 2nd-3rd were worth more than an all or nothing approach for the stage.
No way. He'd have taken a stage win over an extra 10-15 points every single time. He just burnt himself out following all the attacks. Should have either bluffed and forced someone else to chase Impey (if no-one did he'd have finished 2nd/3rd from the group anyway), or gone on a hard attack himself. What he did was a bit ridiculous - burn himself out.
He was pretty happy in his interview post-race, so I'd say mission accomplished for the day.
If he's happy with that, it probably explains why he's only won one Tour stage in the last three years. Not the sharpest tool in the box, that's for sure.
 

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