2016 Vuelta a España, stage 14: Urdax > Col d'Aubisque 196km

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

I think it's safe to say a rider who has done absolutely nothing in his career in monuments, or any other one day races, shouldn't really be considered even a half-decent rouleur. Let alone the best in the world.

I disagree, evidently. He hasn't really done monuments. He has done long stages and done well in them. Against the clock, it's either him or Dumoulin. And I would think he has better endurance.

I do get that his is not the physique that springs to mind when you picture the word rouleur.

Fair enough. It's all down to the interpretation of the word I guess. For me a rouleur is someone who contends for RVV or PR. Likes of Cancellara, Terpstra, Van Avermaet, Thomas. Kind of a combination of a puncheur and TTist, with a massive engine. I think Froome is lacking in the puncheur aspect. He can handle long distances, but only at steady paces or below threshold. He's got pretty poor anaerobic endurance.

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

A few things that I completely disagree with in these two posts: Froome is not the best roleur in the world, otherwise he'd be doing well in Paris-Roubaix.

I thought there are some human head sized stones on the way and muddy roads sometimes etc. Are you sure about your rouleur definition? Or am I wrong here?

There is a good list of excellent rouleurs with not that much pedigree on cobbles that have done well in Paris-Roubaix. Wiggins and Chavanel, for example.

Edit: I agree with DFA's definition, for me a rouleur is either a rider like Voigt or Tony Martin who can ride hard on the flat, or the likes of Cancellara who is mighty powerful

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

A few things that I completely disagree with in these two posts: Froome is not the best roleur in the world, otherwise he'd be doing well in Paris-Roubaix.

I thought there are some human head sized stones on the way and muddy roads sometimes etc. Are you sure about your rouleur definition? Or am I wrong here?

There is a good list of excellent rouleurs with not that much pedigree on cobbles that have done well in Paris-Roubaix. Wiggins and Chavanel, for example.

Edit: I agree with DFA's definition, for me a rouleur is either a rider like Voigt or Tony Martin who can ride hard on the flat, or the likes of Cancellara who is mighty powerful

So basically you agree that rouleur is not the same as cobbles rider. That was exactly my point. Now to the beginning and you see - you have it wrong.
Or not, actually? I'm sorry then.

 

[Kokoso]

Anyway I'm quite convinced (and I think most of you got that too) that carton means Froome is one of the best if not the best one on the flat road.

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

Fair enough. It's all down to the interpretation of the word I guess. For me a rouleur is someone who contends for RVV or PR. Likes of Cancellara, Terpstra, Van Avermaet, Thomas. Kind of a combination of a puncheur and TTist, with a massive engine.

I agree with you there. Rouleur does not equal clasicómano, with a lowercase c, in my book. And what your'e talking about there seems like more of my definition of the type of rider that would make a good clasicómano.

I think Froome is lacking in the puncheur aspect. He can handle long distances, but only at steady paces or below threshold. He's got pretty poor anaerobic endurance.

I hate to be disagreeable, but I disagree here as well. I would rate his anaerobic endurance as, at least, excellent. He's certainly a fairly explosive climber. He's won on muritos. He hasn't really proved himself to be all that explosive on the flats, but he hasn't needed to be, bar stage eleven in this year's Tour, where he I think acquitted himself well.

Anyway I'm quite convinced (and I think most of you got that too) that carton means Froome is one of the best if not the best one on the flat road.

I should've just written that, right

 

[doperhopper]

Re: 2016 Vuelta a España, stage 14: Urdax > Col d'Aubisque 1

What do you think would happen if Nairito followed S.Yates and launched devastating mid-range attack? If Vroom jumps at him, they will join the Orica+Movi train in the valley and SkyTrain is doomed (and CF has only Lopez for the last climb, which is in fact not that bad)... but if he lets Nairo go on the penultimate climb he can easily trail by a minute at the foot of the last climb - not saying he can't make it up (burning Konig and returned Lopez), but the cost would be quite high.

 

[Cannibal72]

Re: Re:

Not this again. It's Quintana who suffers most on the flat. While Froome, on the other hand, is likely the world's best rouleur. Even riders who are drafting get tired when the pace is really being pushed in the flat -which is why you bring it up. How do you think this wouldn't affect the team leaders is beyond my understanding. Anyone who is pushing the pace on the flat is attacking Quintana, not Froome. And if today showed you anything, it's that the one guy who can attack Froome in the mountains at the moment is Quintana. So this is a good tactic if you're racing for second and you don't mind handing Sky the Vuelta while you're at it.

bingo.

the reduction of length of stages, the complaints about the "boring" flat stages have worked only to tilt the GC of GTs towards the little climber. The reason quintana was probably ineffectual in the mountains in the TDF is that he had been worn out by those two long flat stages that everyone on here complained about.

but that is true GT cycling.

GTs are NOT supposed to crown the tiny climber.

Never.

Van Impe (who could actually time trial pretty well) only won when they included 4-5 MTFs in 1976 - it was an aberration at the time.

these recent vueltas are a complete joke.

little tiny climbers who cant TT and get worn out on the flat like quintana, yates bros, chavez, contador, etc. should really never be in contention at a GT.

A few things that I completely disagree with in these two posts: Froome is not the best roleur in the world, otherwise he'd be doing well in Paris-Roubaix. Cancellara, Sagan, Stannard, Thomas, Roelandts and so many others are better than him in the flat.

Second, ever heard of a guy called Pantani? He was a tiny climber that couldn't TT yet won GTs with balanced routes. And Charly Gaul, who lost minutes on the flat would always take it all back in the mountains. I agree that routes these days are not balanced enough, but tiny climbers can and should win GTs. Saying the opposite is taking away part of the beauty of cycling.

Third, Contador is no tiny climber who can't TT.

Wasn't Gaul an unexpectedly brilliant TTer? (Although he did lose loads of time on random flat stages, sometimes.)

 

[Escarabajo]

Pantani does not count. LOL. Pantani didn't need the TT. With his times on Alpe D'Huez he would have put 2-3 minutes on the second just on that climb.

 

[Big Doopie]

Re: Re:

Not this again. It's Quintana who suffers most on the flat. While Froome, on the other hand, is likely the world's best rouleur. Even riders who are drafting get tired when the pace is really being pushed in the flat -which is why you bring it up. How do you think this wouldn't affect the team leaders is beyond my understanding. Anyone who is pushing the pace on the flat is attacking Quintana, not Froome. And if today showed you anything, it's that the one guy who can attack Froome in the mountains at the moment is Quintana. So this is a good tactic if you're racing for second and you don't mind handing Sky the Vuelta while you're at it.

bingo.

the reduction of length of stages, the complaints about the "boring" flat stages have worked only to tilt the GC of GTs towards the little climber. The reason quintana was probably ineffectual in the mountains in the TDF is that he had been worn out by those two long flat stages that everyone on here complained about.

but that is true GT cycling.

GTs are NOT supposed to crown the tiny climber.

Never.

Van Impe (who could actually time trial pretty well) only won when they included 4-5 MTFs in 1976 - it was an aberration at the time.

these recent vueltas are a complete joke.

little tiny climbers who cant TT and get worn out on the flat like quintana, yates bros, chavez, contador, etc. should really never be in contention at a GT.

A few things that I completely disagree with in these two posts: Froome is not the best roleur in the world, otherwise he'd be doing well in Paris-Roubaix. Cancellara, Sagan, Stannard, Thomas, Roelandts and so many others are better than him in the flat.

Second, ever heard of a guy called Pantani? He was a tiny climber that couldn't TT yet won GTs with balanced routes. And Charly Gaul, who lost minutes on the flat would always take it all back in the mountains. I agree that routes these days are not balanced enough, but tiny climbers can and should win GTs. Saying the opposite is taking away part of the beauty of cycling.

Third, Contador is no tiny climber who can't TT.

lol at much of this.

froome is the best all-rounder. that is specifically and historically what the GTs are supposed to test (that and endurance). that is my point. it is only in recent years that there has been an atrocious bastardization of what a GT is supposed to test - first endurance went largely out the window because of clinic-related issues. Then they largely got rid of ITT Kms and lessened the length of stages - particularly flat stages that would wear down tiny climbers.

little climbers raced for the mountains jersey and might get top ten. ever wonder of the demise of importance of the climbers jersey? suddenly the best climbers have a stake in GC.

you shouldn't win a GT if you are not at least competitive (top five-ish) in the ITTs.

there is a reason why ocana won the tdf and fuente never really threatened at all.

pantani...? seriously...?

as for contador's TT ability - i really don't want to get you banned by having that discussion here.

 

[Hakkapelit]

Shame that Moreno only came down to Quintana only when Froome already hade wound up the washer, a bit of a drag race there could have been nice.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Extraordinarily confident of Elissonde to not challenge Fraile for the first place points on the second mountain (Soudet) today. "Yeah, I intend winning the GPM, and yes, you are leading that classification* at the moment, but I know you'll fade and I won't, so you go ahead and take those extra 4 points, makes no difference to me."

* Sean Kelly actually used the proper English word 'classification' at one stage today, then immediately "corrected" himself to his habitual Kellfrangais term, 'classement'.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: 2016 Vuelta a España, stage 14: Urdax > Col d'Aubisque 1

Orica-Greenedge.... well done.

A team I despised during their better Gerrans years, allthough very effective( and that's what it's about afterall) they were incredibly negative in their racing. Yet tactically very strong obviously.

Now their leaders are other riders and they adapted to it with ease apparently. This time a lot more aggresive which I ofcourse prefer, but now they have the riders for it and their position in GC allowed it. They did it though so a big thumbs up for them.
I must say they really got their tactics right a lot of times.

Indeed. I hope that those of the "Brailsford is a cycling genius" persuasion watched this stage because Sky doesn't have a 10th of Orica's race smarts.

Does anyone know who's plan that was today? If it was White, it just confirms yet again that he's best DS in the business. That's saying something because I can't stand the man.

 

[Tank Engine]

Kudos to Movistar for getting Moreno and a couple of riders in the break and making Sky chase. However, as I predicted, although Quintana attacked, he couldn't distance the Alien, which was his major goal. Also, the fact that Valverde got dropped big time puts them in a much weaker tactical position.

I agree with the posters who said that Froome wasn't feeling brilliant, otherwise he would have counterattacked strongly, but he dealt with Quintana's attacks and that was the basic goal. Also, Konig consolidated his position, so it looks like the balance is moving in favour of Sky.

Kudos to Orica for getting riders into the break and releasing Yates, who had a great ride. Chaves also benefitted from the Alien-Stoneface rivalry and they've got two reasonably strong cards to play.

Congratulations to Gesink!

 

[SlickMongoose]

Re: 2016 Vuelta a España, stage 14: Urdax > Col d'Aubisque 1

Orica-Greenedge.... well done.

A team I despised during their better Gerrans years, allthough very effective( and that's what it's about afterall) they were incredibly negative in their racing. Yet tactically very strong obviously.

Now their leaders are other riders and they adapted to it with ease apparently. This time a lot more aggresive which I ofcourse prefer, but now they have the riders for it and their position in GC allowed it. They did it though so a big thumbs up for them.
I must say they really got their tactics right a lot of times.

Indeed. I hope that those of the "Brailsford is a cycling genius" persuasion watched this stage because Sky doesn't have a 10th of Orica's race smarts.

Does anyone know who's plan that was today? If it was White, it just confirms yet again that he's best DS in the business. That's saying something because I can't stand the man.

I still think that if Orica hadn't worked so hard in the break, Yates would have gained more time on GC (because his helpers would have been fresher) and won the stage (because the break would have had less of a lead).

 

[Pricey_sky]

Re: 2016 Vuelta a España, stage 14: Urdax > Col d'Aubisque 1

Does anyone know who's plan that was today? If it was White, it just confirms yet again that he's best DS in the business. That's saying something because I can't stand the man.

No, Neil 'woody' Stephens is the DS at the Vuelta.

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

A few things that I completely disagree with in these two posts: Froome is not the best roleur in the world, otherwise he'd be doing well in Paris-Roubaix.

I thought there are some human head sized stones on the way and muddy roads sometimes etc. Are you sure about your rouleur definition? Or am I wrong here?

There is a good list of excellent rouleurs with not that much pedigree on cobbles that have done well in Paris-Roubaix. Wiggins and Chavanel, for example.

Edit: I agree with DFA's definition, for me a rouleur is either a rider like Voigt or Tony Martin who can ride hard on the flat, or the likes of Cancellara who is mighty powerful

So basically you agree that rouleur is not the same as cobbles rider. That was exactly my point. Now to the beginning and you see - you have it wrong.
Or not, actually? I'm sorry then.

Yes my point wasn't that they were the same, but I think Paris-Roubaix is a good race for a rouleur, and if Froome were such a good rouleur then he would've at least tried it, and probably done quite well in it. At least Wiggins good, or like Tony Martin this year. I still disagree with him being the best rouleur in the world. When he does well in a 250+km race then I might change my mind, but imo he showed in rio he doesn't have that ability.

Your last sentence confuses me, what do you mean?

@Cannibal72 Gaul was in actual fact an excellent time triallists but he lost tons of time on flat stages, partly because he wasn't great on them but mainly because he cba.

 

[kenk09]

Re: 2016 Vuelta a España, stage 14: Urdax > Col d'Aubisque 1

Orica-Greenedge.... well done.

A team I despised during their better Gerrans years, allthough very effective( and that's what it's about afterall) they were incredibly negative in their racing. Yet tactically very strong obviously.

Now their leaders are other riders and they adapted to it with ease apparently. This time a lot more aggresive which I ofcourse prefer, but now they have the riders for it and their position in GC allowed it. They did it though so a big thumbs up for them.
I must say they really got their tactics right a lot of times.

Indeed. I hope that those of the "Brailsford is a cycling genius" persuasion watched this stage because Sky doesn't have a 10th of Orica's race smarts.

Does anyone know who's plan that was today? If it was White, it just confirms yet again that he's best DS in the business. That's saying something because I can't stand the man.

Bizarre.

What does Sky have to do with anything?
Brailsford is not a DS.
Did you happen to notice Sky also had Leo Konig sneak away on the climb, move to 5th on GC, and look a really good podium bet with the ITT to come?

 

[Big Doopie]

Re: 2016 Vuelta a España, stage 14: Urdax > Col d'Aubisque 1

orica my new favorite team.

love backstage pass.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: 2016 Vuelta a España, stage 14: Urdax > Col d'Aubisque 1

Orica-Greenedge.... well done.

A team I despised during their better Gerrans years, allthough very effective( and that's what it's about afterall) they were incredibly negative in their racing. Yet tactically very strong obviously.

Now their leaders are other riders and they adapted to it with ease apparently. This time a lot more aggresive which I ofcourse prefer, but now they have the riders for it and their position in GC allowed it. They did it though so a big thumbs up for them.
I must say they really got their tactics right a lot of times.

Indeed. I hope that those of the "Brailsford is a cycling genius" persuasion watched this stage because Sky doesn't have a 10th of Orica's race smarts.

Does anyone know who's plan that was today? If it was White, it just confirms yet again that he's best DS in the business. That's saying something because I can't stand the man.

Bizarre.

What does Sky have to do with anything?
Brailsford is not a DS.

The amount of times I have heard Sky fanatics carry on about the teams "tactical skills" when all they did was set pace on the front is nauseating. This is pretty much the exact opposite to what Orica did today and the other contenders almost got pantsed.

This forum isn't as heavy on the Pro-Sky but in places like the Bikeradar forums stages like this should be compulsory viewing.

 

[Big Doopie]

Re: 2016 Vuelta a España, stage 14: Urdax > Col d'Aubisque 1

Orica-Greenedge.... well done.

A team I despised during their better Gerrans years, allthough very effective( and that's what it's about afterall) they were incredibly negative in their racing. Yet tactically very strong obviously.

Now their leaders are other riders and they adapted to it with ease apparently. This time a lot more aggresive which I ofcourse prefer, but now they have the riders for it and their position in GC allowed it. They did it though so a big thumbs up for them.
I must say they really got their tactics right a lot of times.

Indeed. I hope that those of the "Brailsford is a cycling genius" persuasion watched this stage because Sky doesn't have a 10th of Orica's race smarts.

Does anyone know who's plan that was today? If it was White, it just confirms yet again that he's best DS in the business. That's saying something because I can't stand the man.

I still think that if Orica hadn't worked so hard in the break, Yates would have gained more time on GC (because his helpers would have been fresher) and won the stage (because the break would have had less of a lead).

fair point.

however, i think they wanted to make sure that the break stay ahead so that they would be in a position to help yates at all.

and it worked to perfection - exactly where they all hooked up.

it was pretty awesome.

 

[This Charming Man]

Re: 2016 Vuelta a España, stage 14: Urdax > Col d'Aubisque 1

Nice race enjoying seeing Froome popping Quintanas balloon oh the horror!
:lol: :lol:

 

[Big Doopie]

Re: 2016 Vuelta a España, stage 14: Urdax > Col d'Aubisque 1

Orica-Greenedge.... well done.

A team I despised during their better Gerrans years, allthough very effective( and that's what it's about afterall) they were incredibly negative in their racing. Yet tactically very strong obviously.

Now their leaders are other riders and they adapted to it with ease apparently. This time a lot more aggresive which I ofcourse prefer, but now they have the riders for it and their position in GC allowed it. They did it though so a big thumbs up for them.
I must say they really got their tactics right a lot of times.

Indeed. I hope that those of the "Brailsford is a cycling genius" persuasion watched this stage because Sky doesn't have a 10th of Orica's race smarts.

Does anyone know who's plan that was today? If it was White, it just confirms yet again that he's best DS in the business. That's saying something because I can't stand the man.

Bizarre.

What does Sky have to do with anything?
Brailsford is not a DS.

The amount of times I have heard Sky fanatics carry on about the teams "tactical skills" when all they did was set pace on the front is nauseating. This is pretty much the exact opposite to what Orica did today and the other contenders almost got pantsed.

This forum isn't as heavy on the Pro-Sky but in places like the Bikeradar forums stages like this should be compulsory viewing.

fair enough.

however, you do understand that sky was in a completely different place tactically with re: GC than Orica - therefore demanding very different tactics.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: 2016 Vuelta a España, stage 14: Urdax > Col d'Aubisque 1

Does anyone know who's plan that was today? If it was White, it just confirms yet again that he's best DS in the business. That's saying something because I can't stand the man.

No, Neil 'woody' Stephens is the DS at the Vuelta.

Yeah, you're right. Stephens can also read a race pretty awesomely as well, was a great road captain as a pro.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Considering that there are 3 MTF remaining with one to come after the TT, this Vuelta still is in favor of Quintana. Looking at last years TT Quintana lost 1:30 to Dumoulin.So he is going to lose ~1 min to Froome, the same time he is now leading. If he drops Froome on any of the 3 MTFs he will most likely win.

 

[carton]

Re:

Shame that Moreno only came down to Quintana only when Froome already hade wound up the washer, a bit of a drag race there could have been nice.

Definitely. Had Moreno come down just a bit earlier we might've had a far different race on our hands. But then again hard to slow yourself down completely and then start back up a hill.