2016 Vuelta a España, stage 14: Urdax > Col d'Aubisque 196km

[TMP402]

Re: Re:

You seem unable to admit you were wrong.

Not sure what you mean here. I'm wrong all the time, but I do genuinely think he has a chance of making top 10 still - above all if he targets that instead of working for Quintana.

You claimed Valverde was still in the top 10. Twice it has been pointed out, he's not merely not in the top 10, but barely in the top 20. Each time you respond by saying he could get into the top 10, and you don't say "you're right, he did drop out of the top 10, I was wrong".

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

You seem unable to admit you were wrong.

Not sure what you mean here. I'm wrong all the time, but I do genuinely think he has a chance of making top 10 still - above all if he targets that instead of working for Quintana.

You claimed Valverde was still in the top 10. Twice it has been pointed out, he's not merely not in the top 10, but barely in the top 20. Each time you respond by saying he could get into the top 10, and you don't say "you're right, he did drop out of the top 10, I was wrong".

But that's what I meant when I posted; that he's still in the race for the top 10, in my opinion. I posted it after seeing him cross the line 10 minutes down - he was clearly well out of the top 10 at the time I posted. I guess looking back through the posts as some kind of fact checker, you may have missed the chronology though.

 

[Arredondo]

Re: Re:

You seem unable to admit you were wrong.

Not sure what you mean here. I'm wrong all the time, but I do genuinely think he has a chance of making top 10 still - above all if he targets that instead of working for Quintana.

You claimed Valverde was still in the top 10. Twice it has been pointed out, he's not merely not in the top 10, but barely in the top 20. Each time you respond by saying he could get into the top 10, and you don't say "you're right, he did drop out of the top 10, I was wrong".

But that's what I meant when I posted; that he's still in the race for the top 10, in my opinion. I posted it after seeing him cross the line 10 minutes down - he was clearly well out of the top 10 at the time I posted. I guess looking back through the posts as some kind of fact checker, you may have missed the chronology though.

But more importantly: what should he do? Riding 100% for Quintana, and sacrificing his own ambitions (top-10). Or holding something back in order to get that top-10? I think that last objective is not really a good thing to do.

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

100% correct - This is the type of tactic I've been calling for since the TDF - Life can go on in mountain stages with SKY being allowed a Sunday afternoon ride in the flat/valley parts of the stage and then we wonder why Sky climbers can hit such a high tempo in the mountains.

Not this again. It's Quintana who suffers most on the flat. While Froome, on the other hand, is likely the world's best rouleur. Even riders who are drafting get tired when the pace is really being pushed in the flat -which is why you bring it up. How do you think this wouldn't affect the team leaders is beyond my understanding. Anyone who is pushing the pace on the flat is attacking Quintana, not Froome. And if today showed you anything, it's that the one guy who can attack Froome in the mountains at the moment is Quintana. So this is a good tactic if you're racing for second and you don't mind handing Sky the Vuelta while you're at it.

Another thing is what Movistar and the Orica did here, which is make Sky chase pretty much all the way, into the wind, and spend pretty much all of their domestiques. That might actually help come tomorrow.

Anyway, I took a stroll down Colombian cycling twitter and those guys make the Contador-thread lifers seem like hopeless optimists who are too critical of their idols. Nairo apparently needs a better team for the Vuelta, which is already lost since Movistar is so weak. Good God. Reality is in short supply these days.

But more importantly: what should he do? Riding 100% for Quintana, and sacrificing his own ambitions (top-10). Or holding something back in order to get that top-10? I think that last objective is not really a good thing to do.

My guess is that Valverde is going all out for Quintana. Let's see.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

You seem unable to admit you were wrong.

Not sure what you mean here. I'm wrong all the time, but I do genuinely think he has a chance of making top 10 still - above all if he targets that instead of working for Quintana.

You claimed Valverde was still in the top 10. Twice it has been pointed out, he's not merely not in the top 10, but barely in the top 20. Each time you respond by saying he could get into the top 10, and you don't say "you're right, he did drop out of the top 10, I was wrong".

But that's what I meant when I posted; that he's still in the race for the top 10, in my opinion. I posted it after seeing him cross the line 10 minutes down - he was clearly well out of the top 10 at the time I posted. I guess looking back through the posts as some kind of fact checker, you may have missed the chronology though.

But more importantly: what should he do? Riding 100% for Quintana, and sacrificing his own ambitions (top-10). Or holding something back in order to get that top-10? I think that last objective is not really a good thing to do.

100% riding for Quintana now, I would say. Perhaps he could still do the occasional sprint to get the points jersey, but the battle for overall is so close, that even one big pull by Valverde on a stage could make the difference.

Unfortunately, I think he'll go in breaks and try to sneak back into the top 10 though; from everything he said pre-race it means a lot to him. Wouldn't be surprised if he managed it as well.

 

[May0maniac]

Re:

Hello haters...

Old school Gerrans.

 

[Arredondo]

Re: Re:

100% riding for Quintana now, I would say. Perhaps he could still do the occasional sprint to get the points jersey, but the battle for overall is so close, that even one big pull by Valverde on a stage could make the difference.

Unfortunately, I think he'll go in breaks and try to sneak back into the top 10 though; from everything he said pre-race it means a lot to him. Wouldn't be surprised if he managed it as well.

I share that fear. Too bad. I would have way more respect for him if he would shred the GC group to 5 riders on Aitana and Camins, instead of riding his own race for a top-10 and not looking to Quintana at all.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

100% correct - This is the type of tactic I've been calling for since the TDF - Life can go on in mountain stages with SKY being allowed a Sunday afternoon ride in the flat/valley parts of the stage and then we wonder why Sky climbers can hit such a high tempo in the mountains.

Not this again. It's Quintana who suffers most on the flat. While Froome, on the other hand, is likely the world's best rouleur. Even riders who are drafting get tired when the pace is really being pushed in the flat -which is why you bring it up. How do you think this wouldn't affect the team leaders is beyond my understanding. Anyone who is pushing the pace on the flat is attacking Quintana, not Froome. And if today showed you anything, it's that the one guy who can attack Froome in the mountains at the moment is Quintana. So this is a good tactic if you're racing for second and you don't mind handing Sky the Vuelta while you're at it.

Another thing is what Movistar and the Orica did here, which is make Sky chase pretty much all the way, into the wind, and spend pretty much all of their domestiques. That might actually help come tomorrow.

Anyway, I took a stroll down Colombian cycling twitter and those guys make the Contador-thread lifers seem like hopeless optimists who are too critical of their idols. Nairo apparently needs a better team for the Vuelta, which is already lost since Movistar is so weak. Good God. Reality is in short supply these days.

But more importantly: what should he do? Riding 100% for Quintana, and sacrificing his own ambitions (top-10). Or holding something back in order to get that top-10? I think that last objective is not really a good thing to do.

My guess is that Valverde is going all out for Quintana. Let's see.

Strange that you second paragraph agrees with my post :surprised: Think OBE wanted to test both Moviestar and Sky but the circumstances of the break put the pressure on Sky - All OBE wants is to finish as high up in gc as possible - Of course it could backfire tomorrow but it was interesting that OBE held back Howson who can help in tomorrows stage.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

100% riding for Quintana now, I would say. Perhaps he could still do the occasional sprint to get the points jersey, but the battle for overall is so close, that even one big pull by Valverde on a stage could make the difference.

Unfortunately, I think he'll go in breaks and try to sneak back into the top 10 though; from everything he said pre-race it means a lot to him. Wouldn't be surprised if he managed it as well.

I share that fear. Too bad. I would have way more respect for him if he would shred the GC group to 5 riders on Aitana and Camins, instead of riding his own race for a top-10 and not looking to Quintana at all.

Indeed. You never know though; no chance Valverde of 10 years ago, or even Valverde of 2 years ago would have sacrificed a major personal ambition. I think he's become a bit more tranquil though, and considers Quintana at least as his equal, so he might lay it all out for the team.

edit. He even did a couple of pulls for Purito in Rio.

 

[Big Doopie]

Re: Re:

Not this again. It's Quintana who suffers most on the flat. While Froome, on the other hand, is likely the world's best rouleur. Even riders who are drafting get tired when the pace is really being pushed in the flat -which is why you bring it up. How do you think this wouldn't affect the team leaders is beyond my understanding. Anyone who is pushing the pace on the flat is attacking Quintana, not Froome. And if today showed you anything, it's that the one guy who can attack Froome in the mountains at the moment is Quintana. So this is a good tactic if you're racing for second and you don't mind handing Sky the Vuelta while you're at it.

bingo.

the reduction of length of stages, the complaints about the "boring" flat stages have worked only to tilt the GC of GTs towards the little climber. The reason quintana was probably ineffectual in the mountains in the TDF is that he had been worn out by those two long flat stages that everyone on here complained about.

but that is true GT cycling.

GTs are NOT supposed to crown the tiny climber.

Never.

Van Impe (who could actually time trial pretty well) only won when they included 4-5 MTFs in 1976 - it was an aberration at the time.

these recent vueltas are a complete joke.

little tiny climbers who cant TT and get worn out on the flat like quintana, yates bros, chavez, contador, etc. should really never be in contention at a GT.

 

[Arredondo]

Re: Re:

100% riding for Quintana now, I would say. Perhaps he could still do the occasional sprint to get the points jersey, but the battle for overall is so close, that even one big pull by Valverde on a stage could make the difference.

Unfortunately, I think he'll go in breaks and try to sneak back into the top 10 though; from everything he said pre-race it means a lot to him. Wouldn't be surprised if he managed it as well.

I share that fear. Too bad. I would have way more respect for him if he would shred the GC group to 5 riders on Aitana and Camins, instead of riding his own race for a top-10 and not looking to Quintana at all.

Indeed. You never know though; no chance Valverde of 10 years ago, or even Valverde of 2 years ago would have sacrificed a major personal ambition. I think he's become a bit more tranquil though, and considers Quintana at least as his equal, so he might lay it all out for the team.

Let's hope. Would be great too see Valverde in the Scarponi role. The last one has become one of my favorite riders by doing such amazing work for Nibali/Aru.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

100% riding for Quintana now, I would say. Perhaps he could still do the occasional sprint to get the points jersey, but the battle for overall is so close, that even one big pull by Valverde on a stage could make the difference.

Unfortunately, I think he'll go in breaks and try to sneak back into the top 10 though; from everything he said pre-race it means a lot to him. Wouldn't be surprised if he managed it as well.

I share that fear. Too bad. I would have way more respect for him if he would shred the GC group to 5 riders on Aitana and Camins, instead of riding his own race for a top-10 and not looking to Quintana at all.

He's a team player, he'll do what team requires. If along the way he grab the opportunity to do something for himself, he'll do it, but not at the expense of the team and Nairo

 

[Kwibus]

Re: Re:

I hope Froome isn't relying on his ITT. Otherwise today might be a missed opportunity for him.

Do you really think that if he could drop Quintana that he wouldn't do that? Froome would never let an opportunity like that go. He was on the limit as well, obviously.

I think today was more of Quintana's day to drop Froome, rather than the other way 'round.

If, Quintana's (supposed) greatest advantage against Froome is multiple-climb, high mountain stages, then this is the best stage for that in the Vuelta. Therefore, the burden is on Quintana to capitalize on his strength.Froome needed to do no more than simply hold Quintana's wheel and attack if Quintana was uncharacteristically weak.

The remaining summit finishes, because of their relative lack of climbing before, suit Froome. And the ITT obviously favors Froome as well.

So you think Froome really could've attacked and dropped Quintana today, but he didn't because he is most likely to gain that time back in a TT.
Why in gods name wouldn't he take time now? You can think you are going to take time, but it's not sure yet. If he had more in the tank he would've certainly tried to take time back. Remember he's almost a minute behind so he needs to take time back.... whenever he can. Certainly it looks good for him looking at the remainder of the stages, but he's still behind.
Froome isn't as silly as you guys think. He is a lot smarter then that.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Re: Re:

Chaves will win this Vuelta, calling it now.

Cool. How much does he beat Froome by in the ITT?

Too much emphasis is being placed on the time trial, and on Quintana and Froome. Today's stage suggested that they might be beginning to feel the effects of having podiumed the TDF. Meanwhile Chaves and Yates are within striking distance, without the TDF in their legs and with more mountains to come. Even Konig isn't out of this....it will be an interesting decision to have to make if on tomorrow or Wednesday Froome cracks a little; does Konig wait?

Today showed that Quintana and Froome are almost impossible to split, and that this isn't necessarily a two horse race.

It could be even more interesting if Sunday's stage wasn't such a cringe worthy distance

Great rides by Gesink and OBE today BTW.

 

[Kwibus]

Re: 2016 Vuelta a España, stage 14: Urdax > Col d'Aubisque 1

Orica-Greenedge.... well done.

A team I despised during their better Gerrans years, allthough very effective( and that's what it's about afterall) they were incredibly negative in their racing. Yet tactically very strong obviously.

Now their leaders are other riders and they adapted to it with ease apparently. This time a lot more aggresive which I ofcourse prefer, but now they have the riders for it and their position in GC allowed it. They did it though so a big thumbs up for them.
I must say they really got their tactics right a lot of times.

 

[Cookster15]

There are two more stages before the TT for Quintana to eke out his lead a little more over Froome - he needs to. Quintana will likely need more than 1 minute advantage to stay in red. But Froome did look like he was on the limit today attempting to stay with Nairo's surges. Quintana needs to keep trying.

 

[bob.a.feet]

Re: Re:

Not this again. It's Quintana who suffers most on the flat. While Froome, on the other hand, is likely the world's best rouleur. Even riders who are drafting get tired when the pace is really being pushed in the flat -which is why you bring it up. How do you think this wouldn't affect the team leaders is beyond my understanding. Anyone who is pushing the pace on the flat is attacking Quintana, not Froome. And if today showed you anything, it's that the one guy who can attack Froome in the mountains at the moment is Quintana. So this is a good tactic if you're racing for second and you don't mind handing Sky the Vuelta while you're at it.

bingo.

the reduction of length of stages, the complaints about the "boring" flat stages have worked only to tilt the GC of GTs towards the little climber. The reason quintana was probably ineffectual in the mountains in the TDF is that he had been worn out by those two long flat stages that everyone on here complained about.

but that is true GT cycling.

GTs are NOT supposed to crown the tiny climber.

Never.

Van Impe (who could actually time trial pretty well) only won when they included 4-5 MTFs in 1976 - it was an aberration at the time.

these recent vueltas are a complete joke.

little tiny climbers who cant TT and get worn out on the flat like quintana, yates bros, chavez, contador, etc. should really never be in contention at a GT.

Contador a bad time trialist?

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

Not this again. It's Quintana who suffers most on the flat. While Froome, on the other hand, is likely the world's best rouleur. Even riders who are drafting get tired when the pace is really being pushed in the flat -which is why you bring it up. How do you think this wouldn't affect the team leaders is beyond my understanding. Anyone who is pushing the pace on the flat is attacking Quintana, not Froome. And if today showed you anything, it's that the one guy who can attack Froome in the mountains at the moment is Quintana. So this is a good tactic if you're racing for second and you don't mind handing Sky the Vuelta while you're at it.

bingo.

the reduction of length of stages, the complaints about the "boring" flat stages have worked only to tilt the GC of GTs towards the little climber. The reason quintana was probably ineffectual in the mountains in the TDF is that he had been worn out by those two long flat stages that everyone on here complained about.

but that is true GT cycling.

GTs are NOT supposed to crown the tiny climber.

Never.

Van Impe (who could actually time trial pretty well) only won when they included 4-5 MTFs in 1976 - it was an aberration at the time.

these recent vueltas are a complete joke.

little tiny climbers who cant TT and get worn out on the flat like quintana, yates bros, chavez, contador, etc. should really never be in contention at a GT.

A few things that I completely disagree with in these two posts: Froome is not the best roleur in the world, otherwise he'd be doing well in Paris-Roubaix. Cancellara, Sagan, Stannard, Thomas, Roelandts and so many others are better than him in the flat.

Second, ever heard of a guy called Pantani? He was a tiny climber that couldn't TT yet won GTs with balanced routes. And Charly Gaul, who lost minutes on the flat would always take it all back in the mountains. I agree that routes these days are not balanced enough, but tiny climbers can and should win GTs. Saying the opposite is taking away part of the beauty of cycling.

Third, Contador is no tiny climber who can't TT.

 

[hrotha]

Pantani could TT pretty well in 1998-1999. Magically well.

 

[Robert5091]

Congrats to Gesink and Lotto today. Chapeau to Orica who made the move of the day - good they had the b**ls to go for it.
Disappointed that Moviestar could or would not try something - Froome is today's winner.

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

A few things that I completely disagree with in these two posts: Froome is not the best roleur in the world, otherwise he'd be doing well in Paris-Roubaix.

I thought there are some human head sized stones on the way and muddy roads sometimes etc. Are you sure about your rouleur definition? Or am I wrong here?

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

A few things that I completely disagree with in these two posts: Froome is not the best roleur in the world, otherwise he'd be doing well in Paris-Roubaix.

I thought there are some human head sized stones on the way and muddy roads sometimes etc. Are you sure about your rouleur definition? Or am I wrong here?

Yeah, I'm going with: "Un rouleur est un coureur cycliste particulièrement performant sur les longues distances et les contre-la-montre, spécialiste de l'effort solitaire" or "the rouleur is a consistent all rounder who can ride well over most types of courses." YMMV.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

A few things that I completely disagree with in these two posts: Froome is not the best roleur in the world, otherwise he'd be doing well in Paris-Roubaix.

I thought there are some human head sized stones on the way and muddy roads sometimes etc. Are you sure about your rouleur definition? Or am I wrong here?

Yeah, I'm going with: "Un rouleur est un coureur cycliste particulièrement performant sur les longues distances et les contre-la-montre, spécialiste de l'effort solitaire" or "the rouleur is a consistent all rounder who can ride well over most types of courses." YMMV.

I think it's safe to say a rider who has done absolutely nothing in his career in monuments, or any other one day races, shouldn't really be considered even a half-decent rouleur. Let alone the best in the world.

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

I think it's safe to say a rider who has done absolutely nothing in his career in monuments, or any other one day races, shouldn't really be considered even a half-decent rouleur. Let alone the best in the world.

I disagree, evidently. He hasn't really done monuments. He has done long stages and done well in them. Against the clock, it's either him or Dumoulin. And I would think he has better endurance.

I do get that his is not the physique that springs to mind when you picture the word rouleur.

 

[Kwibus]

Re: Re:

I think it's safe to say a rider who has done absolutely nothing in his career in monuments, or any other one day races, shouldn't really be considered even a half-decent rouleur. Let alone the best in the world.

I disagree, evidently. He hasn't really done monuments. He has done long stages and done well in them. Against the clock, it's either him or Dumoulin. And I would think he has better endurance.

I do get that his is not the physique that springs to mind when you picture the word rouleur.

He has done monuments or WRs/ORs and shown he isn't with the best riders there.
I do think he should be able to do that, but he hasn't shown it yet. So DFA has a fair point.