2016 Vuelta a España, stage 17: Castellón > Mas de la Costa

[bigcog]

Re: Re:

Froome gained very little time in the mountains on Bardet, Quintana, Valverde or Porte in the Tour. He won the the race in the time trials and used his team to defend the high mountain stages. Quintana's gained four minutes in the mountains alone and has comprehensively dropped Froome three times, without being dropped once.

How do you get to Quintana gaining 4 minutes in mountinas alone. He has gained nowhere near that amount of time.

I must have missed the flat stage where he gained the bulk of his time then.

So Froome won the Tour in time trials and was actively using his teammates to defend in the mountains, whilst Quintana beatifully put into Froome 3' mano-a-mano not using his teammates in direct mountain battle last Sunday. That's great.

Didn't you see it ? You can't have been wearing you're beer goggles

 

[bigcog]

Re: Re:

So Froome really would have won this Vuelta if he hadn't been stupid enough to ride 40 wheels down from Quintana at the start of Sunday huh?

Well we don't know how quintana would have ridden todays stage if he would still need to gain time.

That climb wasn't hard enough to create serious gaps (more than 20 odd seconds), and neither is stage 20

Quintana gained 33 seconds in La Camperona and he only attacked with about 1 kilometer to go.

Why do you think he only attacked with about 1k to go ?

 

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

So Froome won the Tour in time trials and was actively using his teammates to defend in the mountains, whilst Quintana beatifully put into Froome 3' mano-a-mano not using his teammates in direct mountain battle last Sunday. That's great.

Well, to be fair to Quintana, on that stage he rode the last 8km of a pretty flat climb solo, after being in the break all day, and put about 40 seconds into Froome during that time. Froome didn't do anything like that in the Tour he just sat behind Poels and Nieve and consolidated. And that was the day after Quintana was wheelsucked up the Aubisque by Froome. If there would have been more tough multiple mountain stages, like in the Tour, I think Froome would struggle to hang onto a top 5 position. Without the TTT he would already be down to third and hanging onto the podium by 10 seconds.

alright, i might agree with that. in a nutshell, what's your agenda on them? nairo is a way better climber?

Not necessarily. I think at their respective best Froome is the slightly better climber. But he can't hold that level for anywhere near as long as Quintana. So perhaps he's got the better peak (one or two stages in a GT for example), while Quintana has the better base level. The problem for Quintana is that he's got to overcome Froome's peak level at the Tour - which, combined with the difference in TT ability and team strength, looks impossible for the forseeable future.

To be honest, I've been a bit surprised just how strong Quintana has been this Vuelta - especially after he seemed off-form for whatever reason at the tour. It seems that something went really wrong with his preparation. Froome's big drop in performance was much more predictable, because we've seen it all before.

I think senses is a quite deceptive thign and ultimately it's down to whether expectations (wishes) match reality. Nairo dropped Froome three times in the Vuelta but I might have a feeling that he could do it any time he wanted or needed. The same logic can be applied to Froome in the Tour...

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

I am picking someone from I AM. They need jobs.

This is a huge embarrassment to the I AM riders. As the sponsor, I would be exceptionally disappointed in the team and management. I AM the team has been for the most part invisible in the peloton throughout its existence - getting the occasional win. But now that the team is folding - the riders finally stepped up purely for selfish individual gain. Shame. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If the I AM riders had put this effort and motivation in earlier the team may not have folded.

Could it be that they had the wrong riders in leadership roles and the other's opportunities were compromised as a result? I can't imagine that the riders were underperforming on purpose especially knowing that contracts are generally for only a 1 year or 2 max for anyone less than the elite of the sport. This could be an example of the management's strategies being ineffective and the riders being left to take the brunt of the blame. Now that the team is folding riders are given free reign to pursue their own interests.

 

[Laplaz]

Quintana should really aim Giro-Tour now that he knows he is stronger in the second one

 

[doperhopper]

meanwhile on the climb... ninja Zubeldia 10th in the stage

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Re: Re:

I am picking someone from I AM. They need jobs.

This is a huge embarrassment to the I AM riders. As the sponsor, I would be exceptionally disappointed in the team and management. I AM the team has been for the most part invisible in the peloton throughout its existence - getting the occasional win. But now that the team is folding - the riders finally stepped up purely for selfish individual gain. Shame. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If the I AM riders had put this effort and motivation in earlier the team may not have folded.

I AM—yet what I am none cares or knows;
My friends forsake me like a memory lost:
I am the self-consumer of my woes
John Clare

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

I'll give Talansky credit. In my opinion he will never be a top GC guy and he had a rough season last year. But he is still out there fighting every stage with solid finishes. Sitting in 6th overall right now.

He should be the new Ninja!

 

[Anderis]

Re: Re:

I'll give Talansky credit. In my opinion he will never be a top GC guy and he had a rough season last year. But he is still out there fighting every stage with solid finishes. Sitting in 6th overall right now.

He should be the new Ninja!

It's kinda funny. Talansky was dropped when there were about 20 men in the leaders group, while Formolo was sitting 2nd or 3r wheel and looking for his opportunity to accelerate. In the end, Talansky finished in front of Formolo and 2/3 of the guys who were in the leaders group at the point when he was dropped.
It was even more extreme on the stage 7 of this year's TdS, when he was dropped a couple of times when there were 20-30 men in the group, came back every time and eventually finished 5th on the stage.

I'm curious what can Andrew do next year. Vuelta is a GT that on paper suits him the least of the three, with the big amount of short and explosive climbs.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

I am picking someone from I AM. They need jobs.

This is a huge embarrassment to the I AM riders. As the sponsor, I would be exceptionally disappointed in the team and management. I AM the team has been for the most part invisible in the peloton throughout its existence - getting the occasional win. But now that the team is folding - the riders finally stepped up purely for selfish individual gain. Shame. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If the I AM riders had put this effort and motivation in earlier the team may not have folded.

Could it be that they had the wrong riders in leadership roles and the other's opportunities were compromised as a result? . This could be an example of the management's strategies being ineffective and the riders being left to take the brunt of the I can't imagine that the riders were underperforming on purpose especially knowing that contracts are generally for only a 1 year or 2 max for anyone less than the elite of the sportblame. Now that the team is folding riders are given free reign to pursue their own interests.

I find that hard to believe, but it happens quite often that riders try or perform better when they need a new contract.

 

[CatsNK]

Great finish! I feel like this Vuelta has been real racing - a showdown between the greats. The kind of grand tour we can dream about. There's something special about seeing those four battling it out without teammates head-to-head up a steep climb. Great stuff. Really loving this Vuelta this year. Amazing stuff!

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

Double posting.

 

[May0maniac]

Re:

I'll give Talansky credit. In my opinion he will never be a top GC guy and he had a rough season last year. But he is still out there fighting every stage with solid finishes. Sitting in 6th overall right now.

Yeah, he's not the most likeable guy (TJVG seems to be a pretty cool dude), but the guy's a pretty good rider who knows his limits.

 

[Pantani_lives]

Re: Re:

I am picking someone from I AM. They need jobs.

.

I AM—yet what I am none cares or knows;
My friends forsake me like a memory lost:
I am the self-consumer of my woes
John Clare

I AM therefore I cycle.

 

[carton]

Re:

Now Orica has only one bullet in the chamber, Chaves has to do something to secure his podium spot to AC, he can't just sit there to wait ITT!

There's just a sprint stage between now and the ITT. Chaves has Aitana, which I expect will be raced hard.

It's kinda funny. Talansky was dropped when there were about 20 men in the leaders group, while Formolo was sitting 2nd or 3r wheel and looking for his opportunity to accelerate. In the end, Talansky finished in front of Formolo and 2/3 of the guys who were in the leaders group at the point when he was dropped.
It was even more extreme on the stage 7 of this year's TdS, when he was dropped a couple of times when there were 20-30 men in the group, came back every time and eventually finished 5th on the stage.

I've said this before about the way GT mountain stages are being raced. Come the last climb the tempo is being set at a pace that only a couple of guys can hold, and everyone else just starts fading at some point. Particularly on a hill like today, you're better off doing the yo-yo unless you're either: the guy the pace was being set for, or as strong as that guy.

 

[IndianCyclist]

This Vuelta's GC battle is done. The rest of the top 3 do not have the legs to challenge Quintana. With the TT Froome will be 2nd and Contador 3rd.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Re: Re:

I am picking someone from I AM. They need jobs.

This is a huge embarrassment to the I AM riders. As the sponsor, I would be exceptionally disappointed in the team and management. I AM the team has been for the most part invisible in the peloton throughout its existence - getting the occasional win. But now that the team is folding - the riders finally stepped up purely for selfish individual gain. Shame. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If the I AM riders had put this effort and motivation in earlier the team may not have folded.

Desperate times call for Desperate measures. Sometimes the riders need a butt kick to get going and it was the responsibility of the management to provide that and to get value out of the contract. Sadly IAM didnot provide that and it became a sort of a cosy place for riders to come and relax.

 

[Anderis]

Re: Re:

I am picking someone from I AM. They need jobs.

This is a huge embarrassment to the I AM riders. As the sponsor, I would be exceptionally disappointed in the team and management. I AM the team has been for the most part invisible in the peloton throughout its existence - getting the occasional win. But now that the team is folding - the riders finally stepped up purely for selfish individual gain. Shame. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If the I AM riders had put this effort and motivation in earlier the team may not have folded.

Desperate times call for Desperate measures. Sometimes the riders need a butt kick to get going and it was the responsibility of the management to provide that and to get value out of the contract. Sadly IAM didnot provide that and it became a sort of a cosy place for riders to come and relax.

To be fair- most of the recent IAM's wins came from riders who had signed contracts with another team before their win.

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

I am picking someone from I AM. They need jobs.

This is a huge embarrassment to the I AM riders. As the sponsor, I would be exceptionally disappointed in the team and management. I AM the team has been for the most part invisible in the peloton throughout its existence - getting the occasional win. But now that the team is folding - the riders finally stepped up purely for selfish individual gain. Shame. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If the I AM riders had put this effort and motivation in earlier the team may not have folded.

Desperate times call for Desperate measures. Sometimes the riders need a butt kick to get going and it was the responsibility of the management to provide that and to get value out of the contract. Sadly IAM didnot provide that and it became a sort of a cosy place for riders to come and relax.

To be fair- most of the recent IAM's wins came from riders who had signed contracts with another team before their win.

Pantano's deal was heavily rumored at Suisse an pretty much done before the Tour. It's almost like there's a sweetspot between to comfortable and too afraid to lose. No, it can't possibly be, bike racing is all about "mentality" and "wanting it", no other factors could conceivably come into play.