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Giro d'Italia 2023 Giro d'Italia, Stage 5: Atripalda - Salerno 171 km (Wednesday, May 10th)

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JosefK

JosefK

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Logic-is-your-friend

Logic-is-your-friend

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Devil's Elbow said:
There is at least one Evenepoel between the red line (i.e. his centre in picture 1) and his left side on picture 2, which comes to at least 1.5 Evenepoels of veering. And then I'd guesstimate anything between 0 and 40 centimetres of changed camera position/cropping, which is a big margin in a sprint.

Never said Kirsch didn't move more, but when he starts to move there's relatively speaking acres of space to do so, it's an entirely normal move in a sprint finale to boot, and only when Evenepoel veers blindly after Kirsch is well into the process of moving position does that space disappear. Hence why it's mostly on Evenepoel. Not particularly dangerous riding, just an error, but certainly no grounds to blame Kirsch.
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40 centimeters is about the width of Evenepoel's lower back. That's a lot.

If you overlay both images you see there could not fit "one Evenepoel" between his initial position and the one when they collide. This image also proves i used the rider to Evenepoel's left as reference in case you further want to accuse me of cheating. However you wish to call it, they both move in opposite directions and collide. There is no logical reason to blame Evenepoel more than the rider who is moving further and more aggressively, while having a better overview of the entire situation since coming from behind. So in saying there is shared blame, as i have been doing since the beginning, i don't think i have been biased. But i don't expect you in all your unbiasedness, will agree.

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Faserr

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Gratemans said:
Agreed 100%. Let's just hope everybody is ok. Anybody hear anything about Vlasov yet btw?
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"The peloton realised relatively quickly that the roads here were very slippery, especially after Remco's crashes, as well as in the leading group, where two riders also went down. So the peloton took it relatively easy into the final. In the last 15 kilometres there were a few crashes due to the bad weather conditions and the slippery asphalt. Our riders weren't affected badly, but Aleks was involved twice. The team reacted immediately and waited for him. Luckily nothing bad happened. He's doing okay and luckily we didn't lose any time because the crash happened within the last 3 km." - Jens Zemke, Sports Director
 
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Devil's Elbow

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Logic-is-your-friend said:
40 centimeters is about the width of Evenepoel's lower back. That's a lot.
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Yes, that was my original point - it's difficult to prove much of anything with these pictures, because a tiny change in camera position or position of the reference rider can change what you see. I.e. if the reference rider has moved a bit to the right between both moments, that means he isn't an accurate reference and therefore the entire thing falls apart. So you have too big a margin of error.


Logic-is-your-friend said:
If you overlay both images you see there could not fit "one Evenepoel" between his initial position and the one when they collide.
Click to expand...
There's space for one Evenepoel between the centre of his initial position and the side of where he collides. As the overlay shows, there's space for half an Evenepoel between his right side in the former and his left in the latter, hence '1.5 Evenepoels'.

In any case, this is not the most productive discussion, so I'm happy to leave it here.
 
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Logic-is-your-friend

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saunaking said:
sorry but this does not exonerate Remco. The trek guy is accelerating ahead of Remco and there is lots of room had Remco held his line. Remco rides into his back wheel.
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1/ I have not once said he should be exonerated. Only that there is shared blame.
2/ Remco rides into his backwheel because Kirsch cuts him off.
3/ I remember an instance in Norway, where Evenepoel cuts off Vine, who then rides into Evenepoel's back wheel, and everybody agreed Evenepoel was at fault. Here the situation is reversed and strangely enough, Evenepoel is once more at fault.
 
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Years ago, in the Giro, at the finish run-in, almost every rider crashed and slipped over the finish line. It was like soap on the ground. It looked weird.

Cannot blame RCS for the weather, but things like this happen in the Giro.

Weylandt even died, after Horillo made it out alive, two years before. To be honest, stuff like this could repeat, could happen again.

Luckily these riders mostly are great at bike handling, so these races are still relatively safe. (Btw, RCS‘s Milano-San Remo is also such a potentially dangerous course - the descent of the Poggio animates potential winners to take huge risks…)
 
Escarabajo

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red_flanders said:
There are plenty of things worth debating. Things which are in question. This isn't one of them. Please, debate on. IMO saying it's not Remco's fault is at least as dumb a take as someone last year saying it wasn't Roglič fault for crashing into Fred Wright. Total nonsense.
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Not a problem, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am just saying is funny when someone enters the debate saying what is the big deal I am right!!
It is moot point indeed.
BTW, I really don't care about whose fault it was. I am more concerned about who got hurt and the reaction of Remco. Hoping everyone recovers pronto. :)
 
Logic-is-your-friend

Logic-is-your-friend

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red_flanders said:
Not sure what the debate is. He overreacted to the nothingburger move on his left. Plenty of room, just kept drifting until he crashed. On him.

Hope he's OK and this doesn't spoil the race, but...
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"keeps drifting"... same can be said of Kirsch, who drifts way further and harder coming from behind. Nothing on him? Ok lol.

red_flanders said:
There are plenty of things worth debating. Things which are in question. This isn't one of them. Please, debate on. IMO saying it's not Remco's fault is at least as dumb a take as someone last year saying it wasn't Roglič fault for crashing into Fred Wright. Total nonsense.
Click to expand...
Complete BS. Fred Wright was sprinting in a straight line, Kirsch is the one doing most of the swerving here and cuts in front.
 
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