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2023 Tour de France route rumors

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Logic-is-your-friend

Logic-is-your-friend

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OlavEH said:
And btw, what constitutes a balanced route?
...
A good GT route woudn't contain so much ITT that you pretty much eliminated all chances for the more typical climbers.
Click to expand...

A balanced route would indeed eliminate all chances for the typical climbers. I see a lot of people have been indoctrinated over the years to think a balanced route is about HC climbs one after the other. For decades now routes have not been balanced but have been favoring climbers who could do or cared about little else. Typical climbers don't bother much getting better at TT. Typical climbers don't bother much with classic style stages. A balanced route would give all-round riders a big advantage over typical climbers. That's about as close to the definition of balance as you are going to get, that it favors somebody who is good on all fronts. Not just very good at one thing.

I don't know if many people here have actually been to France, but i think about 80% of the country is flat. Yet many people expect the Tour de France to revolve completely around the HC climbs.
 
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Jan the Man

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Logic-is-your-friend said:
A balanced route would indeed eliminate all chances for the typical climbers. I see a lot of people have been indoctrinated over the years to think a balanced route is about HC climbs one after the other. For decades now routes have not been balanced but have been favoring climbers who could do or cared about little else. Typical climbers don't bother much getting better at TT. Typical climbers don't bother much with classic style stages. A balanced route would give all-round riders a big advantage over typical climbers. That's about as close to the definition of balance as you are going to get, that it favors somebody who is good on all fronts. Not just very good at one thing.

I don't know if many people here have actually been to France, but i think about 80% of the country is flat. Yet many people expect the Tour de France to revolve completely around the HC climbs.
Click to expand...

I agree some of the routes of the last 5/10 years leave a lot to be desired, yet very rarely do pure climbers win. Often the best climber also is best tter or all rounder. The nature of the sport and racing has changed over the past 3 decades, doubt we’ll get back to the times of a prologue and two long tts (50km).
 
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OlavEH

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Logic-is-your-friend said:
A balanced route would indeed eliminate all chances for the typical climbers. I see a lot of people have been indoctrinated over the years to think a balanced route is about HC climbs one after the other. For decades now routes have not been balanced but have been favoring climbers who could do or cared about little else. Typical climbers don't bother much getting better at TT. Typical climbers don't bother much with classic style stages. A balanced route would give all-round riders a big advantage over typical climbers. That's about as close to the definition of balance as you are going to get, that it favors somebody who is good on all fronts. Not just very good at one thing.
Click to expand...
As said earlier. A balanced route would give fairly equal chances to riders like Dumoulin and Bernal if these two matched up in peak shape. Even better allround riders like Pog and Vingegaard woud have beaten both of them with several minutes.
 
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Logic-is-your-friend

Logic-is-your-friend

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OlavEH said:
As said earlier. A balanced route would give fairly equal chances to riders like Dumoulin and Bernal if these two matched up in peak shape. Even better allround riders like Pog and Vingegaard woud have beaten both of them with several minutes.
Click to expand...
Bernal is not the most one-dimensional of climbers. Dumoulin could outclimb most typical climbers on his best days. So that statement doesn't say much. I don't think Vingegaard is a true allrounder unless you consider Froome an allrounder as well. He is a typical GT rider. Being good at climbing and TT'ing isn't enough to make you a real allrounder imho. There is more to racing a bike than TTs and climbing.

I think a balanced route should give a TT'er who is good but not excellent at climbing, at least as much chances as a climber who sucks at TT'ing. On a balanced route, someone like Van Aert, would have more chances to pursue a GC than Hindley and it wouldn't be down to only adding TT's. Unfortunately i don't see that happening any time soon.
 
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pman

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It is crazy that we're only a few weeks out from reveal and yet we still know so little about the route. We know almost nothing about the third week. We have no confirmed or even well speculated time trials. Maybe we're in a lot of small towns with less bureaucracy that might speak to the press? Maybe the Tour has plugged some leaks? Who knows but it's odd being almost in mid October and still being in full suspense.
 
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gavia88

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Tonight, finally some new rumours were published by some French Newspapers. Velowire's overview has been updated tonight as well:

# date départ arrivée remarques
1 sa. 1er juillet 2023 Bilbao Bilbao 185 km
2 di. 2 juillet 2023 Vitoria-Gasteiz San Sebastian 210 km
3 lu. 3 juillet 2023 Amorebieta-Etxano Bayonne
4 ma. 4 juillet 2023 Dax ? Laruns ?
5 me. 5 juillet 2023 Pau ? Cauterets ?
6 je. 6 juillet 2023 Tarbes ?? ???
7 ve. 7 juillet 2023 Mont-de-Marsan Bordeaux
8 sa. 8 juillet 2023 Libourne Limoges
9 di. 9 juillet 2023 Saint-Leonard-de-Noblat Puy de Dôme
R1 lu. 10 juillet 2023 repos à Clermont-Ferrand
10 ma. 11 juillet 2023 Saint-Ours-les-Roches / Vulcania Issoire
11 me. 12 juillet 2023 Clermont-Ferrand Moulins
12 je. 13 juillet 2023 Roanne Chiroubles ou Belleville-en-Beaujolais
13 ve. 14 juillet 2023 Châtillon-sur-Chalaronne Grand Colombier
14 sa. 15 juillet 2023 Annemasse Morzine L'Etape du Tour ?
15 di. 16 juillet 2023 ??? Courchevel - altiport
R2 lu. 17 juillet 2023 repos
16 ma. 18 juillet 2023 Les Gets Saint-Gervais Mont Blanc
17 me. 19 juillet 2023 ??? ???
18 je. 20 juillet 2023 ??? Bourg-en-Bresse ???
19 ve. 21 juillet 2023 ??? Le Grand Ballon ??
20 sa. 22 juillet 2023 Belfort ou Montbéliard ??? ???
21 di. 23 juillet 2023 Vélodrome National de Saint-Quentin-en-Yvelines Paris Champs-Elysées

It seems that the 2023 Tour will take place only in a limited part of France. Transfers between stages seems to be short as well. Most unlogical about above scheme is that on Saterday 15 they will Finish in Mourzine, The next stage will go to Courchevel. And then for the rest day on Monday and the stage on Tuesday (Les Gets) go back to Morzine. That not really makes sense.

If we look at the possibilities per stage we get something like this:
1 Bilbao - Bilbao hilly / medium mountain
2 Vitoria-Gasteiz - San Sebastian hilly / medium mountain
3 Amorebieta-Etxano - Bayonne sprint (first half of the stage slightly hilly, second part flat)
4 Dax? - Laruns ? sprint? / medium mountain (only marie blanque) / mountain stage -----> not enough info about the stage yet to have a clue
5 Pau? - Cauterets ? mountain (Tourmalet/ Cautaret-Cambasque combo??)
6 Tarbes ?? - ??? mountain/ time trial/ sprint ---> not enough info about the stage yet to have a clue
7 Mont-de-Marsan - Bordeaux sprint (completely flat)
8 Libourne - Limoges sprint / hilly ----> most likely hilly, but sprint in Limoges are always uphill. Coming from the south a hilly final is also possible.
9 Saint-Leonard-de-Noblat - Puy de Dôme medium mountain with HC finish
R1 repos à Clermont-Ferrand
10 Saint-Ours-les-Roches / Vulcania - Issoire hilly / medium mountain
11 Clermont-Ferrand - Moulins sprint (some hills are possible)
12 Roanne - Chiroubles ou Belleville-en-Beaujolais hilly / medium mountain (for example the stage in Paris Nice last year won by Roglic)
13 Châtillon-sur-Chalaronne - Grand Colombier mountain ----> most likely flat first half, unknown which side of the GC they will finish (considering the next days not much to expect before the GC)
14 Annemasse - Morzine mountain ----> climbs not known yet, we can hope for Saleve, Ramaz, Joux-Plaine and Joux-Verte
15 Courchevel - altiport mountain -----> finish only a few k after col de la Loze most likely, most likely not really a good connection with other climbs before
R2 repos
16 Les Gets - Saint-Gervais Mont Blanc mountain / time trial ----> this stage makes not much sense in the scheme. First it's weird Courchevel is in between Morzine and this stage. Are the rumours sure about this order? Furthermore stage and finish are really close to each other. Is a time trial possible or something like a loop Romme/ Colombier/ Aravis/ Bettex? Not really the best corner of the Alps to create a stage with good linking climbs. Another option would be a kind of World Championship circuit, because WC will be held in Haute Savoie in 2027.
17 ??? - ??? sprint (most likely I guess)
18 ??? - Bourg-en-Bresse ??? sprint
19 ??? - Le Grand Ballon ?? mountain
20 Belfort ou Montbéliard ??? - ??? hilly/ mountain/ time trial
21 Vélodrome National de Saint-Quentin-en-Yvelines - Paris Champs-Elysées sprint (or can we have a surprise and will it be a time trial??)
 
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18-Valve. (pithy)

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gavia88 said:
Tonight, finally some new rumours were published by some French Newspapers. Velowire's overview has been updated tonight as well:


R2 lu. 17 juillet 2023 repos
16 ma. 18 juillet 2023 Les Gets Saint-Gervais Mont Blanc
17 me. 19 juillet 2023 ??? ???
18 je. 20 juillet 2023 ??? Bourg-en-Bresse ???
19 ve. 21 juillet 2023 ??? Le Grand Ballon ??
20 sa. 22 juillet 2023 Belfort ou Montbéliard ??? ???
21 di. 23 juillet 2023 Vélodrome National de Saint-Quentin-en-Yvelines Paris Champs-Elysées
Click to expand...


according to this article

www.radioscoop.com

Ain : le Tour de France 2023 passera deux fois dans le département

Le Tour de France retourne dans l'Ain en 2023. Une étape devrait se dérouler dans le département le 14 juillet prochain.
www.radioscoop.com

stage 19 Bourg-en-Bresse finish

stage 20 start in Montbéliard is highly likely. So the likely Grand Ballon MTF stage will be on Saturday - as anyone and their grandma could have predicted.

Could be soft and short with the just softest side of Ballon d'Alsace, Bussang (not really a climb), and Gd Ballon.

Could also be ~200 kms in length. Something like

Ballon d'Alsace south (2nd cat.)
Col de la Schlucht via Col des Feignes (2nd)
Petit Ballon (1st)
Platzerwasel (1st)
Grand Ballon via Geishouse (HC)
 
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Netserk

Netserk

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18-Valve. (pithy) said:
according to this article

www.radioscoop.com

Ain : le Tour de France 2023 passera deux fois dans le département

Le Tour de France retourne dans l'Ain en 2023. Une étape devrait se dérouler dans le département le 14 juillet prochain.
www.radioscoop.com

stage 19 Bourg-en-Bresse finish

stage 20 start in Montbéliard is highly likely. So the likely Grand Ballon MTF stage will be on Saturday - as anyone and their grandma could have predicted.

Could be soft and short with the just softest side of Ballon d'Alsace, Bussang (not really a climb), and Gd Ballon.

Could also be ~200 kms in length. Something like

Ballon d'Alsace south (2nd cat.)
Col de la Schlucht via Col des Feignes (2nd)
Petit Ballon (1st)
Platzerwasel (1st)
Grand Ballon via Geishouse (HC)
Click to expand...
They could approach Grand Ballon much better than the women did by doing it twice with a 31 km loop in the end.

XG7Lrzw.png


ridewithgps.com

...

200.0 km, +5021 m. Bike ride in Bethoncourt, Bourgogne-Franche-Comté
ridewithgps.com ridewithgps.com
 
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Gigs_98

Gigs_98

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18-Valve. (pithy) said:
according to this article

www.radioscoop.com

Ain : le Tour de France 2023 passera deux fois dans le département

Le Tour de France retourne dans l'Ain en 2023. Une étape devrait se dérouler dans le département le 14 juillet prochain.
www.radioscoop.com

stage 19 Bourg-en-Bresse finish

stage 20 start in Montbéliard is highly likely. So the likely Grand Ballon MTF stage will be on Saturday - as anyone and their grandma could have predicted.

Could be soft and short with the just softest side of Ballon d'Alsace, Bussang (not really a climb), and Gd Ballon.

Could also be ~200 kms in length. Something like

Ballon d'Alsace south (2nd cat.)
Col de la Schlucht via Col des Feignes (2nd)
Petit Ballon (1st)
Platzerwasel (1st)
Grand Ballon via Geishouse (HC)
Click to expand...
So that would mean no stage 20 TT? Man I hope this is true. A long ITT early in the third week and then one final mountain stage would make for a genuinely great Tour route.
 
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gavia88

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Devil's Elbow said:
Weird that we still have no idea on what the TT will be. I do hope that stage 16 starting from Les Gets means it will be stage 15 that heads into Morzine, Grand Colombier MTF > Courchevel via Loze > Morzine would be great pacing.
Click to expand...


I don't know if that is really a good signal. It could end up with only one time trial again.

In the first week only the Tarbes stage could still be a time trial. Not much info on this stage so far.
In the second week most possible options seems gone, maybe the day before the rest day.
In the third week, there are still some stages unknown, so, it could be there as well. But if the Tarbes stage was not a time trial, and without a prologue there will be only 1 time trial again.
 
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gavia88

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18-Valve. (pithy) said:
The stages in the Alps and the Gd Colombier stage could be light on (big) climbs, though...
Click to expand...

I'm curious to the pacing here. It seems that there could in potential some really difficult stages in a row at the end of week 2 and beginning in week 3.

stage 12 medium moutain around Chiroubles ou Belleville-en-Beaujolais
stage 13 Hard HC finish (Grand Columbier), maybe some climbs before
stage 14 Morzine (could be one of the queen stages)
stage 15/16 Courchevel (Loze) ou Saint-Gervais (bettex??)
stage 15/16 Courchevel (Loze) ou Saint-Gervais (bettex??)

That seem a bit to many hard stages in a row, not? The could do some strange things like with the Megeve stage last year, to make a potential interesting stage, harmless for GC.
 
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