62% Hematocrit

[Oldman]

In other words means nothing.

What do I believe?

a- Riis never came close to 60% even though he beat all the Festina dopers who always were at about 55% " y Punto".
b- He was around 60% or higher in order to push the bigger gear in Hautacam and dust everybody including the doped to the gills and more talented "Ulle"

Let me think!

We coined the local reference of "Senor Sixty" as a joke but I can't say we ever saw any evidence Riis hit those numbers. It's not really important other than for comic relief these days.

 

[amp300]

why some folks are amazed by this? Athletes born, raised & trained in regions on high altitude, such as Bolivia, Colombia, Chile, Argentina, Peru and pretty much on the Andes mountains- average between 55 & 60 % Hct "naturally acquired". the problem here becomes how the other aspects of fitness work around that value-for example- muscle density/mass isn't developed easily at high altitude-whereas bone structure is more compacted & stiffer than the folks close to sea level.

Well if you are referring to me then it is because after doing a little research it looks like this athlete has only been at elevation for 3 weeks when this test was taken. I would say that if this jump in Hematocrit occurred naturally, then the olympic training center should buy every piece of land where this runner is training as the new holy ground of altitude training. Of course we would need to know previous tests, and if there is a history of a naturally occurring higher hematocrit.

Also, since I follow cycling the 50% number has been so ingrained in my head (and others I would imagine) for the past few years, that anything above it naturally raises suspicions. Not automatic guilt, just suspicions.

 

[Tubeless]

If I'm not mistaken, the 56% figure comes from Ferrari's Gewiss files and it's about the only 100% confirmed figure we have. It's pretty adventurous to say he never surpassed that figure at Telekom, especially since it was just a snapshot of a particular moment in a particular year for Gewiss.

In the same timeframe, EPO use was rampant in cross-country skiing. FIS measures hemoglobin, instead of hematorkit - but 20 g / 100 ml Hb corresponds pretty closely to 60% Hkr. FIS did official testing for "medical research" purposes, prior to the introduction of hemoglobin limits (introduced in 1997) and this slide presentation is based on those tests:

"1995 some skiers had 20 g / 100 ml with all medal winners above 17.5 g / 100 ml."

http://www.slidefinder.net/v/visions_plans_and_hopes/can_doping_culture/1909430

I have also seen numerous other reports of skiers, male & female that had hemoglobin values above 20 so Riis' nickname of "Mr. 60%" could well be based on reality.

 

[blackcat]

This is very dangerous for a woman as their Hct's average 2-4 points lower then a mans. I think the limit is 48 instead of 50

When Genevieve Jeanson hit 54% at the Worlds one of her teammates told me the testers came into talk with the manager and their words were not that she tested positive but that they were concerned for her health and wanted to get her to a hospital ASAP

manager/coach/husband.

he was the one doping her.

 

[frenchfry]

manager/coach/husband.

he was the one doping her.

And abusing her (mentally and physically), which is a critical element to her story.

 

[rata de sentina]

For a person living at high altitude (4000m+) 62% could possibly be at the upper end of the normal Hct range for that population. Even so I would still be a bit suspicious of this since female Hct is usually lower than male by quite a bit lower (maybe 4-5%). Altitude training of whatever variety may well bump up the Hct a bit but to get these really big increases it seems to have to be adapted to high altitude not the sort of moderate altitude most altitude training seems to consist of.

 

[Berzin]

Berzin - can you show us your 'proof' that Riis "hematocrit was never above 56%" as you claim.
As I linked what d'Hondt said (because I remembered someone getting their knickers in a twist over it.)

Is this d'Hondt link similar to the one from Humo about Contador? Because I really would like to know where they got that figure from. More than likely the same conjecture that we all take part in about who doped and how much being passed around as a convenient half-truth that people just want to believe.

Bjarne Riis said it himself-he reached 56% hematocrit, not 60%. That figure is nothing but an urban legend until proven otherwise.

I myself do not know what to believe. If he was at 60% when he won the Tour that would explain his precipitous drop in form the year after.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Is this d'Hondt link similar to the one from Humo about Contador? Because I really would like to know where they got that figure from. More than likely the same conjecture that we all take part in about who doped and how much being passed around as a convenient half-truth that people just want to believe.

Bjarne Riis said it himself-he reached 56% hematocrit, not 60%. That figure is nothing but an urban legend until proven otherwise.

I myself do not know what to believe. If he was at 60% when he won the Tour that would explain his precipitous drop in form the year after.

Riis told d'Hondt.

Where did Riis admit 56%? And why was he known as Mr. 60% long before he ever admitted his doping.

 

[Oldman]

Riis told d'Hondt.

Where did Riis admit 56%? And why was he known as Mr. 60% long before he ever admitted his doping.

It was a joke in our circles as many were debating the ability to manipulate around the 50% threshold at that time; even before the bans were in place. USA Cycling coaches were aflutter over how to tell who was potentially messing around; not to discourage it but how they did it.

 

[Berzin]

Where did Riis admit 56%? And why was he known as Mr. 60% long before he ever admitted his doping.

Riis spoke about this issue in some of the interviews he gave when he admitted to having used EPO when he won the Tour.

Sorry I don't have a link to the specific quote.

As for why he was known as Mr. 60% I don't know.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Riis spoke about this issue in some of the interviews he gave when he admitted to having used EPO when he won the Tour.

Sorry I don't have a link to the specific quote.

As for why he was known as Mr. 60% I don't know.

I do

Riis stuck to his story for years despite reports that his level of red blood corpuscles, the ones that carry oxygen, was 60 percent, or 10 points above the allowed limit and a sign of EPO use. He was mocked as Mr. 60 Percent in newspapers in Denmark before he retired in 1998.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/28/sports/28iht-BIKE.1.5894396.html

 

[Willy_Voet]

(Sometimes when I was in bed, trying to sleep, my heart wasn't beating fast but it was beating so hard that it was hitting me in the stomach. Impossible to sleep. I had to get up, still couldn't sleep. I was like I had a hammer : BOOM. I felt my heart: POW. I could even hear it. If I concentrated, I could feel it pumping. I knew that when it was too high, my heart rate wouldn't increase. I knew it.)

Sounds like the paranoia of a guilty conscience. Reminds me of Edgar Alan Poe's "Tell Tale Heart"

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

And abusing her (mentally and physically), which is a critical element to her story.

All I can say is that the whole story - from the scared to go to sleep to the abusive husband/coach is really really ****ed up. But thanks for posting - and thanks Blackcat for the extra info.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Riis' hematocrit was never above 56%. This is just another stupid rumor that people with no proof love spewing about on the internet.

Ok then Dope fanboy as seen in your avaTARD.

BTW her 10k time and especially her 5k time are not worth a SIZZnit if her HERmocrat was that high????????????????????? I see the paper "****" WTF????

 

[JA.Tri]

And abusing her (mentally and physically), which is a critical element to her story.

+1 With her stating that she started doping as a teenager, the situation really does seem to constitute abuse. The "power" imbalance between her and her coach is a (figurative) chasm and he is ultimately culpable (IMO).

 

[Berzin]

Ok then Dope fanboy as seen in your avaTARD.

BTW her 10k time and especially her 5k time are not worth a SIZZnit if her HERmocrat was that high????????????????????? I see the paper "****" WTF????

Speaking of 'tards, you may want to brush up on your literacy skills.

I may be taking for granted that english is your first language since you state you are posting from Houston, Texas.

So giving you the benefit of the doubt, someone please translate this gibberish for me because it makes no sense.

 

[JPM London]

I do


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/28/sports/28iht-BIKE.1.5894396.html

That doesn't really say much, does it?

According to wikipedia - which of course you can never trust - it was coined by the Festina boys claiming that if they had been doped themselves, then Riis had to have been doped to at least 60% (because he beat Virenque in 96). Always a good defense - deflecting onto someone else.

It was used in Danish media after a a couple of tv programs around 99 and 2000 investigated doping in cycling by one of the journalists going undercover as a soigneur. In these programs they got access to the Conconi files (and later the Ferrari files) and in this connection they noted Riis was rumoured to be called 60% in the peloton. However, they never documented where it came from or if it was actually anything but a rumour. I'm not sure, but I think this was what coined the phrase in Danish media back then - maybe some journalists had heard it before from other sources, but I don't know.

I have also heard - and I know others say the same on here (sorry forget who!) - that there was indeed a 60% in the peloton, but that it wasn't Riis (Chiappucci, Bugno?).

This would also make sense as there were clearly riders doping a lot more than Riis. One often overlooked thing is that he was actually very careful about what and how much he took. Like everything else with him in cycling he was a perfectionist and did not want to risk his health by overdoing it and taking too much. To this day (in his recent book) he says he doesn't actually know how high he went, but that he doubts it's even as high as the reported 56% (again, reported in the tv program above). He also recounts a story of walking into another (unnamed) rider's hotel room to see him flaunting his extremely high hct and thinking that the guy was crazy. Riis didn't start on the juice until 93 and had by then seen it all - craziness in crits and so on - and heard plenty about the suspicious deaths. Enough to make sure he did it as safely as possible.

A story that D'Hondt doesn't mention, but which Riis can tell is that the two of them never really got along that well. Before Riis started doping D'Hondt cameinto his room one day with a syringe he said Riis had to take. Riis wanted to know what was in it, but when D'Hondt would not tell him he refused and, much to the anger of D'Hondt, emptied the syringe into the sink.

Obviously anything that happened between D'Hondt and Riis is really difficult to ascertain what is correct and what is not. They both lied during their careers and so it's difficult to trust 100% of their later testimonies which is all we'll ever have to by. In addition to that they can easily remember things differently...

 

[hrotha]

I have also heard - and I know others say the same on here (sorry forget who!) - that there was indeed a 60% in the peloton, but that it wasn't Riis (Chiappucci, Bugno?).

Ugrumov has a 60% in those Ferrari files. Apparently he went from 32.8% to 60%. That would suggest he was the epitome of the mule/racehorse transformation, but if I'm not mistaken he had good results as an amateur (being a Soviet rider, that's much of his career).

 

[laziali]

Ugrumov has a 60% in those Ferrari files. Apparently he went from 32.8% to 60%. That would suggest he was the epitome of the mule/racehorse transformation, but if I'm not mistaken he had good results as an amateur (being a Soviet rider, that's much of his career).

Ugrumov is actually Latvian and born in Riga, although he did ride for Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Not too many Latvians would like to be referred to as Soviets - imperial invasion and all. He hit 60% while riding for Gewiss (home of such doping greats as Berzin, Argentin, Gotti and Furlan). Team doctor was Ferrari and I am pretty sure they set a crazy TTT record that was only beaten years later by Pharmstrong &Co.

 

[hrotha]

Ugrumov is actually Latvian and born in Riga, although he did ride for Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Not too many Latvians would like to be referred to as Soviets - imperial invasion and all. He hit 60% while riding for Gewiss (home of such doping greats as Berzin, Argentin, Gotti and Furlan). Team doctor was Ferarri and I am pretty sure they set a crazy TTT record that was only beaten years later by Pharmstrong &Co.

What mistake? I said he was Soviet, not that he was Russian.

 

[laziali]

What mistake? I said he was Soviet, not that he was Russian.

Where does it say "mistake"??? Insensitivity to Latvian sense of self-determination in the face of invasion is what made it crass.

 

[hrotha]

Where does it say "mistake"??? Insensitivity to Latvian sense of self-determination in the face of invasion is what made it crass.

You edited your post just as I was replying. Pretty dishonest to then go around asking "where does it say mistake" when you know perfectly well what you wrote, and I don't see what's crass about saying Ugrumov was a Soviet citizen in a context where all that was meant to convey is that he couldn't turn pro and had some limitations to ride in European races.

 

[laziali]

You edited your post just as I was replying. Pretty dishonest to then go around asking "where does it say mistake" when you know perfectly well what you wrote, and I don't see what's crass about saying Ugrumov was a Soviet citizen in a context where all that was meant to convey is that he couldn't turn pro and had some limitations to ride in European races.

??? The record speaks for itself.

Although crass, i excuse your mistake (see, there's the word) as it does require a knowledge of geopolitics.

 

[hrotha]

??? The record speaks for itself.

Although crass, i excuse your mistake (see, there's the word) as it does require a knowledge of geopolitics.

You know mods can check the edit history, right?

 

[laziali]

You know mods can check the edit history, right?

Yes I am familiar with the software. The point is, why isn't the word "mistake" in your quote of my comment? Because it wasn't there when you chose to reply. Alea jacta est