A Question About Indurain...

[Ryo Hazuki]

In 1987 and 1989 Delgado climbed AdH in 42:15
In 1991 he did it in 40:29 + 45sec = 41:14

In 1991, same team Indurain climbed AdH in 39:45 +45 sec = 40:30

In 1995, with better EPO protocole, he did it in 38:14.
To do 38:14 you need more than 90 ml/mn.kg, at least 92-93 ml/mn.kg.

In 1991, a guy like Luc Leblanc, 3 years before he started EPO, managed to hold on to Indurain wheel : 41:15 (with just Guimard type preparation)

Indurain's lung capacity is really not than huge 1 liter for every 10 kg, it probably is just average for a pro cyclist.
Oxygen flow rate (intake) is far, far more important.

You are not born with a large lung capacity usually, you develop it through appropriate exercise.

I read a story where his max heart rate could be 195 at a MTF. Then 60 seconds later would fall back to 60. His resting pulse was said to be measured at just 28 bpm.

Yes Cookster15, nice signatures for EPO .

doubtful. I for on have huge lung capacity. they recently tested me at age 27. and I never did any excersise for it. I have done and still do sports (mma) but I doubt it you would develop it that way.

 

[Benotti69]

pls share any evidence of this. most ridiculous thing I've read all day

The EPO years where it was unregulated.

Indurain 1.88 m (6 ft 2 in)
Riis 1.86 m (6 ft 1 in)
Ullrich 1.83 m (6 ft 0 in)

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Okay, I'll bite. Else your post might be without an audience.

It was legitimate.*

And, yes of course, Indurain used both water and vitamin supplements in 1995.

Now, who are 'you' referring to when you say you?

Dave.

*Actually, I sincerely appreciate your analysis and think it is bang on. We have seen TT average speeds of 53 kph in some instances. The power required for this is astronomically higher than 43-45 kph. There have been some aerodynamic improvements, of course, but not enough to explain 10 kph improvements.

not compared to the 90s but definitely in recent days among many other improvements.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

The EPO years where it was unregulated.

Indurain 1.88 m (6 ft 2 in)
Riis 1.86 m (6 ft 1 in)
Ullrich 1.83 m (6 ft 0 in)

again where is the proof? I could just as well post ugrumov who was tiny and hammering flat itt's all of a sudden at age 35

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

6'2 is very big for a climber. For a TT/Northern Classics/Rouleur type it's excellent. Mig riding TT's like a steam train isn't really that dodgy, it's the way he kept up with the likes of Pantani, Chiapucci and others in the mountains.

stop staring at heights. they mean nothing. bmi is what can say something about being able to climb. soler was 6 foor 3, 1.90 and a natural climnber because he had a tiny frame. countless othert examples as well.

 

[Benotti69]

stop staring at heights. they mean nothing. bmi is what can say something about being able to climb. soler was 6 foor 3, 1.90 and a natural climnber because he had a tiny frame. countless othert examples as well.

so many you can only name 1

 

[Benotti69]

again where is the proof? I could just as well post ugrumov who was tiny and hammering flat itt's all of a sudden at age 35

Ugrumov was winning TTs in the 80s.

 

[hrotha]

AFAIK Ugrumov also holds the record for biggest hematocrit increase.

 

[D-Queued]

pls share any evidence of this. most ridiculous thing I've read all day

I'm calling this. This has to be an overstatement. The competition here is fierce, and that cannot be the most ridiculous for this day.

not compared to the 90s but definitely in recent days among many other improvements.

I think we were agreeing, but was wondering.

Here is a comparative list:

Disc wheels - check
Fast Tri-spoke wheels (i.e. Specialized wheels, developed by DuPont, before they were bought by HED) - check
Aero bars - check
Praying Mantis position - check (favored by Indurain, now illegal)
Aero helmets - check (only Armstrong's non-legal fairing has tested statistically better; Indurain's helmet was excellent and ANSI approved)
Aero tubing - not really, it was early days
Aero skin suits - partial improvements, there are better suits now but only a minority use them
Hidden cabling - some improvements at that time
Advanced tire profiles - not yet
Seat set back - more restrictive now
Arm extension - more restrictive now

The improvements since the 90s could account for perhaps a minute or two, and maybe another minute since the 80s. I don't see 10 kph in there.

Dave.

 

[MonkeyFace]

so many you can only name 1

JV, Basso, Landis, Hesjedal, Menchov, Nibali, Savoldelli, Franseco Moser, Sean Kelly. More if you include the fact that 5-8 to 5-9 used to be considered tall.

 

[Netserk]

JV, Basso, Landis, Hesjedal, Menchov, Nibali, Savoldelli, Franseco Moser, Sean Kelly. More if you include the fact that 5-8 to 5-9 used to be considered tall.

Would you really call most of those 'natural climbers'? Moser

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

so many you can only name 1

The Schlecks, Rolland

 

[Netserk]

The Schlecks, Rolland

Doubt they would be at the top in a clean field

 

[Le breton]

It looks like some more forum-dwellers might wish to contribute to the theme I launched last year :
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=21566

 

[IndianCyclist]

Okay, I'll bite. Else your post might be without an audience.

It was legitimate.*

And, yes of course, Indurain used both water and vitamin supplements in 1995.

Now, who are 'you' referring to when you say you?

Dave.

*Actually, I sincerely appreciate your analysis and think it is bang on. We have seen TT average speeds of 53 kph in some instances. The power required for this is astronomically higher than 43-45 kph. There have been some aerodynamic improvements, of course, but not enough to explain 10 kph improvements.

Boardman's 56.375 km/hr best human effort with superman position and 49.441 hour record on the "Merckx style" Bike actually tells us that the position on the bike is significantly important than the aerodynamic improvements. It is very difficult to gauge from timetrial data alone due to variability in a number of factors.

 

[Le breton]

Boardman's 56.375 km/hr best human effort with superman position and 49.441 hour record on the "Merckx style" Bike actually tells us that the position on the bike is significantly important than the aerodynamic improvements. It is very difficult to gauge from timetrial data alone due to variability in a number of factors.

Please remember that for his 49.441 hour Boardman only averaged 403 watts against 442 watts for his 56.375 superman hour.

Had he been worth 442 watts also in the first case he would have covered about 51.100 km

It's hard to dissociate the cyclist's CdA from the bike's CdA.
Of course Alex Simmons RST could tell us much more about this topic.

 

[Saint Unix]

He gained 40 watts? How many spacers did he drop off the handlebars?

 

[Le breton]

He gained 40 watts? How many spacers did he drop off the handlebars?

In 1996 he did 56.375 km producing 442 watts in the process

In 2000 , he did 49.441 and was only he shadow of his former self apparently as he only mustered 403 watts.

He lost 40 watts

 

[Gregga]

10% difference, which is consistent with (conservative) EPO use in 1996, but panyagua in 2000 (50% Hct limit, EPO test, retro-testing, off-score)

 

[Hawkwood]

In 1996 he did 56.375 km producing 442 watts in the process

In 2000 , he did 49.441 and was only he shadow of his former self apparently as he only mustered 403 watts.

He lost 40 watts

If you watched the fly on the wall documentary of the 2000 record attempt he actually looked like a shadow of his former self. I think he said the main reason he did the 2000 attempt was for it to be a thank you present for Roger Legeay. He certainly didn't look very enthusiastic about it.

 

[lllludo]

If you watched the fly on the wall documentary of the 2000 record attempt he actually looked like a shadow of his former self. I think he said the main reason he did the 2000 attempt was for it to be a thank you present for Roger Legeay. He certainly didn't look very enthusiastic about it.

Walsh, Fotheringham, Moore and co have always explained science (aerodynamics...) made the difference and believe Boardman who says he never used EPO in the 90s. Gaumont, Vaughters said the contrary.
The figures say he could sustain an output of 440watts during one hour in 1996.
Where is the truth ...

To come back to Indurain I remember that his brother Prudencio was in his Giro or Tour teams. Prudencio was a smaller copy of Miguel, he was OK for TT and could finish a Tour in the top 50 and they were rooming together during 3 week races.
When Miguel won an ITT in Madine 1993, he almost eliminated his brother who finished last because he had a bad day.
At the time I found it funny but now I'm wondering if they have the same blood group ??

 

[Le breton]

Walsh, Fotheringham, Moore and co have always explained science (aerodynamics...) made the difference and believe Boardman who says he never used EPO in the 90s. Gaumont, Vaughters said the contrary.
.....

If Gaumont had made such an accusation towards Boardman I would take it seriously (please find the source, quote, circumstances), but I think you are wrong.

Same goes for Vaughters ( although he can be very subtle in his accusations, like in 2004 - it must have been that year - when I heard him on the radio say that to climb AdH in 37:36 you need a VO2 max of about 94 ml/mn.kg. Of course for anybody who knows that L.A.'s "official" VO2 max was around 82, that is the same as saying he was doped to the gills)

 

[Netserk]

JV has explicitly said that all who rode the '96 Tour were doped.

 

[IndianCyclist]

In 1996 he did 56.375 km producing 442 watts in the process

In 2000 , he did 49.441 and was only he shadow of his former self apparently as he only mustered 403 watts.

He lost 40 watts

I don't know maybe he was not in form compared to the 1996 attempt but again it is very difficult to conclude. Do you know how much he weighed during the 2 attempts to compare p/w ratio.

 

[Le breton]

I don't know maybe he was not in form compared to the 1996 attempt but again it is very difficult to conclude. Do you know how much he weighed during the 2 attempts to compare p/w ratio.

I seriously doubt his weight would have varied so much between those 2 events to make it worth considering.

His"normal" weight was 68 to 69 kg, although I am sure he was lighter during the 60ieth minute than during the 1st in both instances