Acupuncture

[Polyarmour]

I once was blind but acupuncture cured it; happy ending.

That's conjuring up all sorts of images.

 

[elapid]

Why bother with science in the first place

I hope that is a rhetorical question.

I welcome you to find any papers that disprove that power meters actually measure power, short interval training increases performance rapidly and that crank length has almost no effect on performance. A lot of research out there that supports my coaching practices and at worst guides my coaching principles.

Now you're just being silly. Whatever beef you have with other forum members should not necessarily apply to me or anyone else (ie, powermeters and crank length). In regards to your coaching methods and techniques, I am not questioning your techniques or abilities as a coach, all I am saying is that I am certain I can either pick holes in the scientific literature that supports your techniques and/or find peer-reviewed publications that will find some of your techniques are not significantly better than other techniques (or that your techniques are significantly worse than others). That's just the nature of the game, and it's the game that you have played on this and other threads.

 

[CoachFergie]

I welcome anyone to pick holes in my coaching. Frank Day likes to claim I am holding my riders back from for suggesting there is no support for his other claims about crank length or independent crank use. The current state of the research supports my views.

Most of the well reported data on acupuncture would suggest claims for the practice are mostly speculation.

 

[gregod]

seriously?

acupuncture. does. nothing. period.

 

[marathon marke]

seriously?

accupuncture. does. nothing. period.

A few years ago my greyhound got bone cancer. We elected to have the cancerous leg amputated to save his life. It all worked out well, exceppt that eventually developed back problems due to not being able to land on two legs when he jumped or ran. We took him to an horse/dog accupuncurist for 4 sessions. It was clear that the sessions helped the pain, but it was also obvious that something else was happening, something that allowed him to run and jump pain free even weeks after each session.

I don't think dogs understand the placebo effect.

 

[gregod]

A few years ago my greyhound got bone cancer. We elected to have the cancerous leg amputated to save his life. It all worked out well, exceppt that eventually developed back problems due to not being able to land on two legs when he jumped or ran. We took him to an horse/dog accupuncurist for 4 sessions. It was clear that the sessions helped the pain, but it was also obvious that something else was happening, something that allowed him to run and jump pain free even weeks after each session.

I don't think dogs understand the placebo effect.

or he just learned how to walk again.

 

[CoachFergie]

seriously?

accupuncture. does. nothing. period.

Nice.

But lets have some at least 10 more meaningless anecdotes before this thread officially jumps the shark!

 

[marathon marke]

or he just learned how to walk again.

He walked one day after the amputation. He was running one week after. He developed back problems progressively over the next several months. It wasn't until after we began the accupuncture treatments that the problems disappeared.

Just like many modalities of healing, not everything works for everybody.

 

[gregod]

He walked one day after the amputation. He was running one week after. He developed back problems progressively over the next several months. It wasn't until after we began the accupuncture treatments that the problems disappeared.

Just like many modalities of healing, not everything works for everybody.

this is probably a fool's errand, but at the risk of wasting everyone's time i will take you seriously for a second and explain how you are wrong.

first, no matter how much scientists have looked they have never found any possible mechanism for how acupuncture could have any efficacy. on top of that, there have been no double-blind controlled studies that have shown any efficacy outside of any known mechanism.

so how did your dog recover? it certainly is possible that the acupuncturist had some effect, but it wasn't due to the needles. i have never heard of an animal acupuncturist, but the ones who practice on humans typically do massage along with the treatment. if your dogupuncturist tried some hands-on technique, it is possible that this could have somehow trained the dog. another major factor is confirmation bias. you paid money for some treatment and your dog got better. often this has a way of "coloring" memories. let me be clear: i am not accusing you of lying. but if you look up confirmation bias on wikipedia you can get a detailed explanation of how memories can actually be manufactured by expectation of outcome.

on a side note: i used baidu to search for animal acupuncture and the only hits i got were from human acupuncture sites ridiculing "rich people in the west bastardizing the practice and mak[ing] everybody look bad." (my loose translation)

 

[elapid]

I welcome anyone to pick holes in my coaching. Frank Day likes to claim I am holding my riders back from for suggesting there is no support for his other claims about crank length or independent crank use. The current state of the research supports my views.

Most of the well reported data on acupuncture would suggest claims for the practice are mostly speculation.

I am not sure if you are being childish or you have a serious lack comprehension skills.

When did I ever say I wanted to pick holes in your coaching skills? In fact, my exact words were: "In regards to your coaching methods and techniques, I am not questioning your techniques or abilities as a coach".

You keep on bringing up Frank Day and your inane arguments with him on other threads. Your antagonism of all things Frank does not support your coaching methods. As I also stated in my other post: "Whatever beef you have with other forum members should not necessarily apply to me or anyone else (ie, powermeters and crank length)."

The whole point of my previous post was to say the scientific literature is fickle and using it support your point-of-view is fraught with difficulty because it is highly likely that there is scientific literature that will contradict your point-of-view. The scientific literature frequently serves to support your OPINION, and your opinion is usually born from experience. In regards to the scientific literature on acupuncture, I read the abstracts of the first 12 meta-analyses for "acupuncture + treatment + pain" and acupuncture was found to have a significant effect for pain management during labor, pain during mensuration, postoperative pain, disability with neck disorders, neck pain, fibromyalgia, osteoarthritis (significant, but small), chronic pain, migraines (both during attacks and for routine care); another review found that there was a significant but not clinically relevant effect of acupuncture in the management of pain regardless of the cause; the effect was present but not significant for jaw disorders; but not for the treatment of autism. Nine out of 12 meta-analyses supported the use of acupuncture in the treatment of various disorders causing pain. You should know the strength of meta-analyses (@ Gregod - there are many double-blinded controlled studies investigating the effects of acupuncture on various ailments and conditions on which these meta-analyses are based, hence the strength of these meta-analyses), so 75% showing a significant and clinically relevant effect is more than just mere "speculation".

Lastly, the OP wanted the OPINION of others. The OP did not want the likes of you or me to shove peer-reviewed scientific literature down their throat.

 

[CoachFergie]

Ah I get it now he just wanted people to confirm his bias. Thanks for clearing that up

 

[elapid]

Ah I get it now he just wanted people to confirm his bias. Thanks for clearing that up

You are officially an idiot. I will no longer participate in any of your childish argumentative games. Merry Christmas and all the best wishes for everyone that has to put up with your online personality in the New Year.

 

[ThorGoLucky]

Yes, you can find studies that show acupuncture as effective, but the better the quality of the scientific study -- large randomized trial without many dropouts, placebo controlled, double or even triple blinding, independently verified, published in an established peer-reviewed scientific journal -- the claim of effectiveness of classic acupuncture (no electricity) disappears into the background noise.

So basically, if you want a professional mommy to rub your boo boo so that you feel better, acupuncture is for you.

 

[CoachFergie]

You are officially an idiot. I will no longer participate in any of your childish argumentative games. Merry Christmas and all the best wishes for everyone that has to put up with your online personality in the New Year.

Pathetic, is that the best you have? All talk and no show!

You claim the studies are there but don't list any and when others assert they are of poor quality you assert that the OP just wanted his confirmation bias stroked.

You sir are the child!

Yes people can look forward to my demands for actual evidence over peoples biased opinions for a long time to come.

 

[elapid]

Yes, you can find studies that show acupuncture as effective, but the better the quality of the scientific study -- large randomized trial without many dropouts, placebo controlled, double or even triple blinding, independently verified, published in an established peer-reviewed scientific journal -- the claim of effectiveness of classic acupuncture (no electricity) disappears into the background noise.

So basically, if you want a professional mommy to rub your boo boo so that you feel better, acupuncture is for you.

Meta-analyses can only be performed on the highest quality research studies. Placebo-controlled, double-blinded, etc. They are far superior to any individual study in regards to the strength of their findings. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-analysis for more information on the power of meta-analyses.

Punch in "acupuncture + treatment + pain" into PubMed and use meta-analysis as a limit and you'll get 76 meta-analyses of the effect of acupuncture to treat various ailments that have pain as a component of their condition.

These are some of the most recent results of meta-analyses for acupuncture and:

Autism: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21901712
Labor pain: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21735441
Jaw disorders: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21354460
Menstrual pains: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21249697
Disability with neck pain: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20482474
Osteoarthritis: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20091527
Chronic pain: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20070551
Neck pain: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19216662
General pain management: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19174438
Migraine: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19160193

 

[CoachFergie]

Did you even read these abstracts let alone check the actual papers themselves? Most suggest no effect or that more research is needed.

Autism: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21901712

Current evidence does not support the use of acupuncture for treatment of ASD. There is no conclusive evidence that acupuncture is effective for treatment of ASD in children and no RCTs have been carried out with adults. Further high quality trials of larger size and longer follow-up are needed.

Labor pain: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21735441

Acupuncture and acupressure may have a role with reducing pain, increasing satisfaction with pain management and reduced use of pharmacological management. However, there is a need for further research.

Jaw disorders: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21354460

In conclusion, our systematic review and meta-analysis demonstrate that the evidence for acupuncture as a symptomatic treatment of TMD is limited. Further rigorous studies are, however, required to establish beyond doubt whether acupuncture has therapeutic value for this indication.

Menstrual pains: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21249697

Acupuncture may reduce period pain, however there is a need for further well-designed randomised controlled trials.

Disability with neck pain: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20482474

Some conservative interventions for neck pain are effective in the short term. Few interventions that have been investigated have shown longer term effects that are better than placebo or minimal intervention.

Osteoarthritis: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20091527

Sham-controlled trials show statistically significant benefits; however, these benefits are small, do not meet our pre-defined thresholds for clinical relevance, and are probably due at least partially to placebo effects from incomplete blinding. Waiting list-controlled trials of acupuncture for peripheral joint osteoarthritis suggest statistically significant and clinically relevant benefits, much of which may be due to expectation or placebo effects.

Chronic pain: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20070551

The accumulating evidence from recent reviews suggests that acupuncture is more than a placebo for commonly occurring chronic pain conditions. If this conclusion is correct, then we ask the question: is it now time to shift research priorities away from asking placebo-related questions and shift toward asking more practical questions about whether the overall benefit is clinically meaningful and cost-effective?

Neck pain: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19216662

The quantitative meta-analysis conducted in this review confirmed the short-term effectiveness and efficacy of acupuncture in the treatment of neck pain. Further studies that address the long-term efficacy of acupuncture for neck pain are warranted.

General pain management: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19174438

A small analgesic effect of acupuncture was found, which seems to lack clinical relevance and cannot be clearly distinguished from bias. Whether needling at acupuncture points, or at any site, reduces pain independently of the psychological impact of the treatment ritual is unclear.

Migraine: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19160193

In the previous version of this review, evidence in support of acupuncture for migraine prophylaxis was considered promising but insufficient. Now, with 12 additional trials, there is consistent evidence that acupuncture provides additional benefit to treatment of acute migraine attacks only or to routine care. There is no evidence for an effect of 'true' acupuncture over sham interventions, though this is difficult to interpret, as exact point location could be of limited importance. Available studies suggest that acupuncture is at least as effective as, or possibly more effective than, prophylactic drug treatment, and has fewer adverse effects. Acupuncture should be considered a treatment option for patients willing to undergo this treatment.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

.... Babble....

Congratulations on the confirmation of your denial bias, "cherry-picking" the studies which push your own point.

You are free to walk your path, I'll walk mine, thank you.

You have done a better job than Frank Day ever managed in de-railing a thread - go back and read the OP asked for.

 

[CoachFergie]

Congratulations on the confirmation of your denial bias, "cherry-picking" the studies which push your own point.

You are free to walk your path, I'll walk mine, thank you.

You have done a better job than Frank Day ever managed in de-railing a thread - go back and read the OP asked for.

Judging by his response to Alex it was clear he just wanted his confirmation bias to be affirmed.

Where did I deny that there are three studies listed that provide a level of support for acupuncture. I am reading through the full papers now. The rest of the abstracts provided showed little (less than could be accounted for by bias) or no evidence of the efficacy of acupuncture which shows that Elapid posted them without actually reading the abstracts let alone the full papers.

 

[gregod]

Yes, you can find studies that show acupuncture as effective, but the better the quality of the scientific study -- large randomized trial without many dropouts, placebo controlled, double or even triple blinding, independently verified, published in an established peer-reviewed scientific journal -- the claim of effectiveness of classic acupuncture (no electricity) disappears into the background noise.

So basically, if you want a professional mommy to rub your boo boo so that you feel better, acupuncture is for you.

thank you for putting better than i could.

 

[gregod]

Ah I get it now he just wanted people to confirm his bias. Thanks for clearing that up

direct and to the point.

elapid, what is the point of asking for people's thoughts if you are going to weigh the subjective (anecdote) and objective (science) equally or discount the objective all together? as CF said, you are just looking to confirm your bias.

 

[CoachFergie]

Congratulations on the confirmation of your denial bias, "cherry-picking" the studies which push your own point.

Seems like I'm not the only Cherry Picker out there

http://summaries.cochrane.org/search/site/acupuncture

81 for acupuncture. Most find no support for acupuncture. Although a review for the acupuncture to assist conception??? Whole lot of real poorly conducted studies out there and that is just one area of medicine.

 

[gregod]

i think coachfergie would agree, if having needles shoved into one's body had any therapeutic effect, we would be all for it. but the evidence is against this. and if there were to ever be strong evidence for the efficacy of acupuncture, i would happily recant my position. what could be better than an almost non-invasive treatment? but the fact is, it is a 2000 year old practice, like bloodletting, that was more about doctors doing something rather than nothing despite having no real understanding of what they were doing.

 

[Tapeworm]

I know its been posted before but still, highly relevant to this topic:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0

 

[CoachFergie]

i think coachfergie would agree, if having needles shoved into one's body had any therapeutic effect, we would be all for it. but the evidence is against this. and if there were to ever be strong evidence for the efficacy of acupuncture, i would happily recant my position. what could be better than an almost non-invasive treatment? but the fact is, it is a 2000 year old practice, like bloodletting, that was more about doctors doing something rather than nothing despite having no real understanding of what they were doing.

My personal opinion is when suffering with pain, being jabbed with needles would probably take my mind off the initial pain

 

[CoachFergie]

I know its been posted before but still, highly relevant to this topic:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0

My favourite you tube clip.