Acupuncture

[CoachFergie]

What a joke, lets just go back to the dark ages. Hey everyone just do what feels good to you

 

[elapid]

What a joke, lets just go back to the dark ages. Hey everyone just do what feels good to you

See, this is why I think you are an idiot. Our discussion on acupuncture proves what I am saying is correct. You cite papers and I cite papers each saying that acupuncture doesn't work and acupuncture works, respectively.

Our discussions have also shown that you do not know how to read and interpret scientific data, and I would guess based on your ignorance that you have never written a scientific paper or conducted a research experiment in your life.

 

[Rip:30]

What a joke, lets just go back to the dark ages. Hey everyone just do what feels good to you

What a joke, lets just go back to the dark ages. Hey everyone if we don't understand something then it must not exist and there's no need to investigate further.

 

[CoachFergie]

The level of scientific certainty about acupuncture (very uncertain) will still be more relevant than someone's personal opinion on the matter.

With such a high level of uncertainty no doubt exacerbated by commercial interest in the area of pain management I would be looking at more evidence based solutions.

Just the same as resistance training. There is evidence that resistance training improves cycling performance but when compared to other forms of specific training it greatly pales in comparison.

The same with Frank Day's claim of the importance of crank length. .5% for the tallest of riders or shortest of riders using a 170mm crank. That is 4.2 seconds in a 40km time trial. Not all that important when compared to the gains one can make from training, diet, improving aerodynamics and equipment selection.

 

[Rip:30]

See, this is why I think you are an idiot. Our discussion on acupuncture proves what I am saying is correct. You cite papers and I cite papers each saying that acupuncture doesn't work and acupuncture works, respectively.

Our discussions have also shown that you do not know how to read and interpret scientific data, and I would guess based on your ignorance that you have never written a scientific paper or conducted a research experiment in your life.

I wouldn't say he's an idiot, but it's doubtful that he or gre has spent much time publishing science outside of what was required for undergrad or maybe MA work. Internet forums aside, of course.

 

[Rip:30]

The level of scientific certainty about acupuncture (very uncertain) will still be more relevant than someone's personal opinion on the matter.

With such a high level of uncertainty no doubt exacerbated by commercial interest in the area of pain management I would be looking at more evidence based solutions.

Just the same as resistance training. There is evidence that resistance training improves cycling performance but when compared to other forms of specific training it greatly pales in comparison.

The same with Frank Day's claim of the importance of crank length. .5% for the tallest of riders or shortest of riders using a 170mm crank. That is 4.2 seconds in a 40km time trial. Not all that important when compared to the gains one can make from training, diet, improving aerodynamics and equipment selection.

LOL.

Unfortunately we are unable to review your recent submission.

 

[Boeing]

See, this is why I think you are an idiot. Our discussion on acupuncture proves what I am saying is correct. You cite papers and I cite papers each saying that acupuncture doesn't work and acupuncture works, respectively.

Our discussions have also shown that you do not know how to read and interpret scientific data, and I would guess based on your ignorance that you have never written a scientific paper or conducted a research experiment in your life.

+1 well said. countless examples throughout this forum support your claims as well

 

[marathon marke]

Thank you for the reply. Now let me explain in better detail how this worked, and how you are wrong:

The dog received the accupucture treatments in roughly 3-week intervals. There was no other healing or therapeutic technique used. Immediately after each session, it took several minutes for him to regain his usual (before session) balance (not ususual after lying still for approximately 1 hour/session). But we still had a 40minute car ride home, when he wasn't able to do anything in the car other than get up and turn around on the rear seat. That was because of his size (a greyhound). Most of this time though, he always seemed "relaxed" (tired?)

Upon returning home from the second session, he was let out of the car without any vocal commands or encouragement. He jumped out on his own, it was obvious that the pain was lessening by the way he ran after the nearest squirrel. Each session after that, it became obvious that the accupuncture was making a difference.

Accupuncture is in fact a very common technique used with horses, and this particular accupucturist worked with both horses and dogs.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, as I might not believe it myself if I had nothing to rely on but "looking up" someone's else's opinion. But then, it's like deciding on my next bike - I test ride each one myself, rather put much weight on anyone else's opinion. And that includes relying on wikipedia.

this is probably a fool's errand, but at the risk of wasting everyone's time i will take you seriously for a second and explain how you are wrong.

first, no matter how much scientists have looked they have never found any possible mechanism for how acupuncture could have any efficacy. on top of that, there have been no double-blind controlled studies that have shown any efficacy outside of any known mechanism.

so how did your dog recover? it certainly is possible that the acupuncturist had some effect, but it wasn't due to the needles. i have never heard of an animal acupuncturist, but the ones who practice on humans typically do massage along with the treatment. if your dogupuncturist tried some hands-on technique, it is possible that this could have somehow trained the dog. another major factor is confirmation bias. you paid money for some treatment and your dog got better. often this has a way of "coloring" memories. let me be clear: i am not accusing you of lying. but if you look up confirmation bias on wikipedia you can get a detailed explanation of how memories can actually be manufactured by expectation of outcome.

on a side note: i used baidu to search for animal acupuncture and the only hits i got were from human acupuncture sites ridiculing "rich people in the west bastardizing the practice and mak[ing] everybody look bad." (my loose translation)

 

[Rip:30]

this is probably a fool's errand, but at the risk of wasting everyone's time i will take you seriously for a second and explain how you are wrong.

first, no matter how much scientists have looked they have never found any possible mechanism for how acupuncture could have any efficacy. on top of that, there have been no double-blind controlled studies that have shown any efficacy outside of any known mechanism.

it's usually better to do a quick google search before making dismissive sweeping generalizations. condescension only works when you know what you're talking about.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811909005904

http://precedings.nature.com/documents/4128/version/1

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v13/n7/full/nn.2562.html

 

[gregod]

it's usually better to do a quick google search before making dismissive sweeping generalizations. condescension only works when you know what you're talking about.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811909005904

http://precedings.nature.com/documents/4128/version/1

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v13/n7/full/nn.2562.html

haven't forgotten about the topic. just haven't had time to go through all of these sources seriously. but a quick note about the second and third papers; the second did not conclude that it was effective, just different from sham. in the third, it was not clear if they were actually talking about acupuncture or just calling the use of needles in that way acupuncture.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

For all you doubters out there just do a little research on Bell's Palsy in China. Common syndrome there, most are all cured with acupuncture and herbs.

To be quite honest I avoid western medicine at all costs, you really want to give your money to the dark side like Pfizer who are basically poisoning the food you eat to make you sick so you have to use their product. Not this kid.

 

[Parera]

I'm getting dry needling aka intramuscular stimulation to treat back pain stemming from a car accident. It has helped tremendously. It's also being performed by a medical doctor, with you know, a degree from a medical degree. And yes, dry needling is a little different than traditional acupuncture but whatever, it works.

 

[Boeing]

Even if it is a psychological benefit it is still a benefit; person to person

 

[gregod]

Even if it is a psychological benefit it is still a benefit; person to person

it is so frustrating not having time to chime in fully on everybody's comments.

keep in mind, boeing, that placebo effects don't work on everybody and often only on a small percentage of people. so, barring all other concerns, one would be rolling the dice hoping for the psychological benefit. granted, most conventional treatments are not 100% effective, but their effectiveness is predictable and when not effective we don't continue to hope for effectiveness but switch to a different protocol in order to get the desired outcome.

you wouldn't buy a car that didn't run hoping that you could somehow be fooled into believing that it would run.

 

[marathon marke]

Even if it is a psychological benefit it is still a benefit; person to person

My greyhound received no phychological benefit, unless the neighbor's dog told him something when I was around.

 

[Tapeworm]

To be quite honest I avoid western medicine at all costs, you really want to give your money to the dark side like Pfizer who are basically poisoning the food you eat to make you sick so you have to use their product. Not this kid.

Oh that western medicine is so evil. The fact that in the western world we don't have polio anymore is just a conspiracy to make money. Doctors prescribe every known drug they can in order to get their quotas and yearly kickback from the drug companies.

Yeah.

I'm getting a scope done on my elbow on Thursday to remove a bone chip. I am getting it attuned with crystals, waved with essential herbs, and then lots of needles to balance my chi. But I might have to subject myself those evil practitioners of western medicine to butcher my elbow open and take the damn thing out. Curse them!

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Oh that western medicine is so evil. The fact that in the western world we don't have polio anymore is just a conspiracy to make money. Doctors prescribe every known drug they can in order to get their quotas and yearly kickback from the drug companies.

Yeah.

I'm getting a scope done on my elbow on Thursday to remove a bone chip. I am getting it attuned with crystals, waved with essential herbs, and then lots of needles to balance my chi. But I might have to subject myself those evil practitioners of western medicine to butcher my elbow open and take the damn thing out. Curse them!

Had a feeling that I'd get a response like this if I didn't elaborate further. Western medicine meaning big pharma in today's sense. Of course if you have something that requires to be opened up, great, contributions to the medical world, sure, but big pharma is a forking joke, that's who I'm trying to avoid.

 

[Tapeworm]

Had a feeling that I'd get a response like this if I didn't elaborate further. Western medicine meaning big pharma in today's sense. Of course if you have something that requires to be opened up, great, contributions to the medical world, sure, but big pharma is a forking joke, that's who I'm trying to avoid.

Yeah you put your chin out there.

Whilst the big pharmaceutical companies may have some dodgy stuff going on at times (like any big company) there can be no doubt as to the amount of benefit some of these medicines bring to our society. Of course there could be some we could do without.

 

[Boeing]

My ex wife was a doctor who also did acupuncture. She used to claim 1/3 got signficant benefit, 1/3 got some benefit, 1/3 got no benefit. FWIW.

As with my acupressure masseuse YMMV

 

[Rip:30]

PAPuncture harnesses the mechanism behind acupuncture to provide long lasting pain relief

 

[richwagmn]

Some new news on acupuncture.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/11/health/health-acupuncture/index.html?hpt=hp_t3