AICAR, GW1516 Wada can test, can the French ?

[Benotti69]

Team Sky bought all the remaining stock.

 

[zalacain]

Re:

Which reminds me of a question I've thought about for ages, but not been knowledgeable/smart enough to answer - if teams/riders are aware that retroactive testing may occur and snare them in future, what's their thought process:
a) we may get caught in the future, but let's just go for the short-term gain
b) nah, they probably won't develop a test
c) nah, they might catch us but probably won't prosecute us
d) we're not REALLY cheating by doing this, so how can we be caught

I guess I'm mistakenly assuming there is a thought process.

f) we're rich enough to fight you in court for ever and bankrupt you in the process

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

How can he "out" a rider for taking a substance which was perfectly legal at the time? Sure if UCI follow process they can test for whatever they want, but they cannot release results if no rules were broken.

Edit: They could probably say "xx % of riders were using AICAR" but not name them

Pedro Delgado tested positive in 1988 TdF for probenecid, but it was not on the UCI list as they don't 'update' their lists till September. They still named Delgado and the substance.

Cookson wont retest unless it is 'his' interest to do so. Same for previous Presidents.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Which reminds me of a question I've thought about for ages, but not been knowledgeable/smart enough to answer - if teams/riders are aware that retroactive testing may occur and snare them in future, what's their thought process:
a) we may get caught in the future, but let's just go for the short-term gain
b) nah, they probably won't develop a test
c) nah, they might catch us but probably won't prosecute us
d) we're not REALLY cheating by doing this, so how can we be caught

I guess I'm mistakenly assuming there is a thought process.

f) we're rich enough to fight you in court for ever and bankrupt you in the process

g) we are so rich we paid for you to destroy our samples so they cannot be retested.

 

[Tommy79]

So... that's a "yes" to only living on through the more outlandish conspiracy theories? Tin foils hats set to a jaunty angle etc....

 

[Benotti69]

ooh more of the Armstrong fan repetition, tin foil hat accusations. Old hat.

Go on be a real sport, repeat "Froome never tested positive" and he is the "most tested athlete in the world".

 

[Tommy79]

Do you have anything to say about AICAR?

 

[Benotti69]

5-Aminoimidazole-4-carboxamide ribonucleotide (AICAR) is an intermediate in the generation of inosine monophosphate. AICAR is an analog of adenosine monophosphate (AMP) that is capable of stimulating AMP-dependent protein kinase (AMPK) activity.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

So... that's a "yes" to only living on through the more outlandish conspiracy theories? Tin foils hats set to a jaunty angle etc....

Late last year or early this year I heard from someone inside the WT (non-rider) that rumors of AICAR use still exist. FWIW, people think it's still being used. Obviously I have no idea how widespread its use is, but it seems that it's still around.

John Swanson

 

[AICA ribonucleotide]

Re:

So... that's a "yes" to only living on through the more outlandish conspiracy theories? Tin foils hats set to a jaunty angle etc....

They found it in two investigations.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/operacion-skype-riders-evidence-leads-to-doctors-arrest/

Also was found in the massa investigation Jose Rujano got caught up in.

 

[autologous]

Re:

So... that's a "yes" to only living on through the more outlandish conspiracy theories? Tin foils hats set to a jaunty angle etc....

I will say that the substance on people’s minds, Activ-o-something … is new to me. Before this ordeal I had never heard of it nor had my teammates.

Lance knew all about those tinfoil hat wearers making up outlandish fake drugs with which to smear him.

 

[yespatterns]

Why do you think Froome is clean Tommy? And on that note who do you think is dirty?

 

[MikeS369]

Half a million Euro's? You can pick the stuff of for about $30 for 50mg. Half a million Euro's would get you about 1,166,650mg. Recommended dosage is 315 to 3150mg per day and should only be taken 3 days a week. For half a million Euro's a person could take AICAR everyday for over a year at the max recommended dosage. It is expensive but obviously not too expensive for athelets.

http://www.superhumanstore.com/shg/aicardosing/#

 

[The Hitch]

In NFL today there was something on twitter about some players claiming they had 2.9% body fat. They are super ripped though, but still could this be similar drugs to what cyclists are using - reducing body fat while keeping muscles big?

 

[slowspoke]

Re:

Half a million Euro's? You can pick the stuff of for about $30 for 50mg. Half a million Euro's would get you about 1,166,650mg. Recommended dosage is 315 to 3150mg per day and should only be taken 3 days a week. For half a million Euro's a person could take AICAR everyday for over a year at the max recommended dosage. It is expensive but obviously not too expensive for athelets.

http://www.superhumanstore.com/shg/aicardosing/#

That is the scariest website I have ever seen....

 

[jalep]

Re: Re:

http://www.superhumanstore.com/shg/aicardosing/#

That is the scariest website I have ever seen....

I know. Kinda makes my head spin with the possibilities too

 

[Escarabajo]

Bump.

 

[Escarabajo]

Can somebody help me with some information on this Drug.

At one point this was the new EPO of the time. Clinicians went silent since 2015 on the information fo this drug. At one point I was convinced that this was the drug of the transformation of the Sky team. And many other riders. One clear the indicator was the extreme weight loss while maintaining power. My questions are:

1- Do we still believe this is "The Drug" that everyone is abusing now?
2- Is there a credible test for this drug?
3- Has somebody been positive for this drug?

It is strange that we are still beating records and I am sure that some of the riders could have gone faster but we are living in a control doping- Control power era so we can go under the radar (not like the nineties) so I am wondering why I haven't heard anything about it like I did when EPO was in the market?

 

[L'arriviste]

Re:

Can somebody help me with some information on this Drug.

At one point this was the new EPO of the time. Clinicians went silent since 2015 on the information fo this drug. At one point I was convinced that this was the drug of the transformation of the Sky team. And many other riders. One clear the indicator was the extreme weight loss while maintaining power. My questions are:

1- Do we still believe this is "The Drug" that everyone is abusing now?
2- Is there a credible test for this drug?
3- Has somebody been positive for this drug?

It is strange that we are still beating records and I am sure that some of the riders could have gone faster but we are living in a control doping- Control power era so we can go under the radar (not like the nineties) so I am wondering why I haven't heard anything about it like I did when EPO was in the market?

To respond to your second question, yes there is although the details of it must be assumed because the answer your third point is not yet, as far as I'm aware. The only published evidence so far to support its use among athletes is news of criminal arrests. It's high time we heard some more though, since the somewhat related GW-501516 has generated far more headlines.

To return to the testing situation, the drug resembles naturally generated proteins so analysis probably depends on a comparison between the sample and a threshold limit set by the results of lab studies, one of which is this one:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00216-010-3560-8

 

[King Boonen]

WADA approved method is described and referenced here:

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/resources/research/detection-of-aicar-administration-by-carbon-isotope-ration-mass-spectrometry

 

[King Boonen]

Posted too quickly. I don't think anyone has been caught through testing.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Can somebody help me with some information on this Drug.

At one point this was the new EPO of the time. Clinicians went silent since 2015 on the information fo this drug. At one point I was convinced that this was the drug of the transformation of the Sky team. And many other riders. One clear the indicator was the extreme weight loss while maintaining power. My questions are:

1- Do we still believe this is "The Drug" that everyone is abusing now?
2- Is there a credible test for this drug?
3- Has somebody been positive for this drug?

It is strange that we are still beating records and I am sure that some of the riders could have gone faster but we are living in a control doping- Control power era so we can go under the radar (not like the nineties) so I am wondering why I haven't heard anything about it like I did when EPO was in the market?

To respond to your second question, yes there is although the details of it must be assumed because the answer your third point is not yet, as far as I'm aware. The only published evidence so far to support its use among athletes is news of criminal arrests. It's high time we heard some more though, since the somewhat related GW-501516 has generated far more headlines.

To return to the testing situation, the drug resembles naturally generated proteins so analysis probably depends on a comparison between the sample and a threshold limit set by the results of lab studies, one of which is this one:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00216-010-3560-8

GW1516 is much easier to test for as it is not produced endogenously like AICAR. AICAR doesn't resemble naturally generated proteins, it's an endogenously produced metabolite and intermediate of the IMP synthesis pathway.

I think it was actually the nucleoside version, acadesine, that was used in the 2008 paper along with GW1516. Acadesine was prohibited in 2009, AICAR in 2011.

 

[thehog]

Re:

Can somebody help me with some information on this Drug.

At one point this was the new EPO of the time. Clinicians went silent since 2015 on the information fo this drug. At one point I was convinced that this was the drug of the transformation of the Sky team. And many other riders. One clear the indicator was the extreme weight loss while maintaining power. My questions are:

1- Do we still believe this is "The Drug" that everyone is abusing now?
2- Is there a credible test for this drug?
3- Has somebody been positive for this drug?

It is strange that we are still beating records and I am sure that some of the riders could have gone faster but we are living in a control doping- Control power era so we can go under the radar (not like the nineties) so I am wondering why I haven't heard anything about it like I did when EPO was in the market?

I posted a link from another forum from somebody who was using GW (grey area doping thread). The half-life is very short, around 12 hours. It was anecdotal but the suggestion was it was being used through the pro peloton in a big way. 12 hours would mean you could use at 10pm and feel relative safe of not being tested for 12 hours if you were traveling, racing or at altitude.

 

[Escarabajo]

Thanks.

So the real question is if this drug is still being abused in the peloton, then the testing is worthless. Just like it happened with the early EPO tests.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Can somebody help me with some information on this Drug.

At one point this was the new EPO of the time. Clinicians went silent since 2015 on the information fo this drug. At one point I was convinced that this was the drug of the transformation of the Sky team. And many other riders. One clear the indicator was the extreme weight loss while maintaining power. My questions are:

1- Do we still believe this is "The Drug" that everyone is abusing now?
2- Is there a credible test for this drug?
3- Has somebody been positive for this drug?

It is strange that we are still beating records and I am sure that some of the riders could have gone faster but we are living in a control doping- Control power era so we can go under the radar (not like the nineties) so I am wondering why I haven't heard anything about it like I did when EPO was in the market?

I posted a link from another forum from somebody who was using GW (grey area doping thread). The half-life is very short, around 12 hours. It was anecdotal but the suggestion was it was being used through the pro peloton in a big way. 12 hours would mean you could use at 10pm and feel relative safe of not being tested for 12 hours if you were traveling, racing or at altitude.

No, it doesn't have a very short half-life. GW1516-sulfone has been shown to be detectable for ~40 days after a single 15mg dose:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/dta.1413