Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[rhubroma]

Hi! I'm a Spanish guy and for some years have been following the forum, and reluctant to join because of my not perfect English.

Just wanted to defend Eddy Merckx as best of all time. When you take into consideration Merckx palmarés, people tend to forget that the Merckx that tiranized the sport in the early and mid 70's was a cyclist limited by the terrific accident that he suffered in 1969 when he had a broken vertebra and his back and pelvis were spoiled for life.

So not only is Merckx the athlete with the best combined and individual GT and classics palmares, the scary thing is that he did that without even reaching his full potential due to a chronical injury.


P.D: ¡Vamos Alberto a por el doblete!

Nobody was denegrating Merckx, but only arguing that in today's sport he and his generation (if talking about his competition), since they would be racing today against stiffer competition, better athletes 360° around; nobody can dominate the sport today like he did then. Punto e basta.

As far has his accident goes, not that it matters, but I've broken two vertebre in a cycling accident with a delivery truck. It's a whopping amount of pain the first month and, even today, I have pain if I'm seated for too long in normal chairs (the two vertebre in question will remain fractured for life, such is the outcome of a compression fracture, hence a chronic injury), but I was back on the bike after 5 months and raced again after 7 months. Appart from the loss of fitness, which was recuperable, riding wasn't affected and thus I doubt Merckx didn't reach his full potential as the myth would like us to believe.

i think he did reach his full potential, but only up until 69, he was never as dominant after that.

this comparison is weird, we can't know what eddie could have done with the training, equipment and nutritional advances. he was overweight compared to todays GC riders, but there is nothing to suggest he couldn't have lost it while maintaining power.

Eddie was Great, Alberto is great, the end!

In fact this is what started all this business in the first place, when someone said Merckx was just way too huge or something to that effect, as if today's riders pale in comparison.

I simply pointed out that the comparison is a misguided one. Eddie was a giant, but his era can't be compared with today's. No, we can't know what Merckx could have done with today's training, equipment and nutritional advances, however, it is reasonable to assume that the athletes today are reaching the limits of human capacity (at least from a theoretical, physiological point of view - who knows, though, what science will come up with in the future). Consequently this establishes a threashold that is so high that to win requires total focus in an area of specialization. In fact the sport has moved, for better or worse, in the direction of intensive specialization. In Merckx's era they didn't do this, because it wasn't necessary, because the sport was interpreted in a totally different way and they thus didn't arrive at the peaks of fitness today's rider's do in the various disciplines.

So as you say, Eddie was great, Alberto is great, the end!!

 

[rhubroma]

Comparing Contador to Merckx is like comparing 35 mm film to digital.

What BS. This only demonstrates how people are more subject to fantasy than reason.

The athletes are so much better today that this point is totally moot.

I just meant that for me its a waste of time. Not into comparing Athletes through the agaes.

Pardon me then, I didn't read it that way my bad.

 

[rhubroma]

Hi! I'm a Spanish guy and for some years have been following the forum, and reluctant to join because of my not perfect English.

Just wanted to defend Eddy Merckx as best of all time. When you take into consideration Merckx palmarés, people tend to forget that the Merckx that tiranized the sport in the early and mid 70's was a cyclist limited by the terrific accident that he suffered in 1969 when he had a broken vertebra and his back and pelvis were spoiled for life.

So not only is Merckx the athlete with the best combined and individual GT and classics palmares, the scary thing is that he did that without even reaching his full potential due to a chronical injury.


P.D: ¡Vamos Alberto a por el doblete!

Nobody was denegrating Merckx, but only arguing that in today's sport he and his generation (if talking about his competition), since they would be racing today against stiffer competition, better athletes 360° around; nobody can dominate the sport today like he did then. Punto e basta.

As far has his accident goes, not that it matters, but I've broken two vertebre in a cycling accident with a delivery truck. It's a whopping amount of pain the first month and, even today, I have pain if I'm seated for too long in normal chairs (the two vertebre in question will remain fractured for life, such is the outcome of a compression fracture, hence a chronic injury), but I was back on the bike after 5 months and raced again after 7 months. Appart from the loss of fitness, which was recuperable, riding wasn't affected and thus I doubt Merckx didn't reach his full potential as the myth would like us to believe.

Ahh, I see what you mean. I agree, in todays cycling Merckx would have to specialize and peak for certain races, winning less races per year. On the other side, he would be able to enjoy a longer and more healhy career thanks to modern preparation and medicine, so in the end it is mere speculation to say that Merckx would have a worst palmares had he competed today, at least GT wise.

I`m sorry for your back. Cheers.

Thanks! I'm still convinced that Merckx could not win half the races he did today, primarily because he couldn't compete in so many races today without getting crushed, and I'm not even convinced that in today's GTs his physical attributes would be advantages in the mountains against the current crop of GC greats. I see Merckx today as a great classics rider primarily.

 

[IndianCyclist]

In those days one had to race to earn money which is why riders participated in lot of races. These days one can be picky and choose which races to target and still earn 2-4 MEuro. In current scenario Merckx would have chosen limited races to do which would have left him with significantly less palmares. He could not have won the cobbles and the hilly classics or GT in the same year for sure. But the hilly classics and the GTs in the same year is possible. Purito and Valverde come closet to him in terms of volume. The ref point however can be the riders of that era. But winning 11 GTs against those riders is no fluke and therefore he would have had the capacity to win the GTs in this era as well. Both Contador and Merckx were beaten by other riders and head to head i have no idea who would have won.
The comparison between Merckx and Contador also has analogies in other sports.
Bradman is considered to be the best batsman ever in cricket with an average of 99.94. Consider that the next best is only 61 average. Yet Tendulkar has the maximum runs scored by a batsman of 15921 with the next at less than 12000 runs. Bradman played during the 40-50s while Tendulkar is recent. Yet while Tendulkar is one of the greats of cricket, nobody considers him close to Bradman.

 

[KyoGrey]

I think that riders those days made their main money in Criteriums, not in races.

For me a modern born Merckx would have probably specialized into a lighter Combo GT-Hilly classics rider with a strong sprint, being able to win all the races the old Merckx won, except for the cobbles classics.

 

[SeriousSam]

I think that riders those days made their main money in Criteriums, not in races.

For me a modern born Merckx would have probably specialized into a lighter Combo GT-Hilly classics rider with a strong sprint, being able to win all the races the old Merckx won, except for the cobbles classics.

 

[LaFlorecita]

I think that riders those days made their main money in Criteriums, not in races.

For me a modern born Merckx would have probably specialized into a lighter Combo GT-Hilly classics rider with a strong sprint, being able to win all the races the old Merckx won, except for the cobbles classics.

But Piti would never be able to win the Tour

 

[KyoGrey]

I think that riders those days made their main money in Criteriums, not in races.

For me a modern born Merckx would have probably specialized into a lighter Combo GT-Hilly classics rider with a strong sprint, being able to win all the races the old Merckx won, except for the cobbles classics.

Ha ha it's funny, when I was writing my post about modern Merckx I had in mind a hybrid between a non-lazy Ullrich and a Valverde with killer instinct.

 

[Singer01]

I think that riders those days made their main money in Criteriums, not in races.

For me a modern born Merckx would have probably specialized into a lighter Combo GT-Hilly classics rider with a strong sprint, being able to win all the races the old Merckx won, except for the cobbles classics.

a hybrid between a non-lazy Ullrich and a Valverde with killer instinct.

that frankensteins cyclist would win 15 GT's easily.

 

[SeriousSam]

I think that riders those days made their main money in Criteriums, not in races.

For me a modern born Merckx would have probably specialized into a lighter Combo GT-Hilly classics rider with a strong sprint, being able to win all the races the old Merckx won, except for the cobbles classics.

But Piti would never be able to win the Tour

True. Perhaps Andy Schleck is the better answer then, won the Tour and a hilly monument.

But Schleck can't sprint. There are always trade-offs. The rider that wins the races Ed won in today's era doesn't exist, never existed, and will probably never exist.

 

[KyoGrey]

I'm sorry, I don't know what do you mean by "todays era", but talentwise both Jan Ullrich and Frank Vandenbroucke had the opportunity to evolve into multilple Monument GT winners.

Shame that they didnt have some of Valverde's not so recognised talents: professionalism and a strong work ethic...

 

[Metabolol]

Merckx wouldn't get close to 500+ victories but as been mentioned I think he would be like Valverde but a better TTer. Basically a monster. He would have won several GTs. This assumes he was born in let's say 1985/90 and benefited from the natural progression of the sport.

He certainly wouldn't be unbeatable in the GTs though. He would be a very good climber but would still lose time to the absolute top climbers on the toughest mountain stages. Many times he would be able to pull that time back in TTs and just by being aggressive in other parts of the race.

 

[Metabolol]

New age Merckx vs Contador would be very close in GTs. Alot would depend on the courses. In general, giro: edge contador, tour 50/50, vuelta (lately) : merckx.

Merckx would win many more one day races though.

 

[Taxus4a]

Re: Re:

I've only truly seen AC on top shape explode 3 times in a GT

'07 galibier - Not plateau de beille, on galibier he rode away from everyone, no one could follow. Evans tried and he completely cracked. Go look back at the images, he was flying. Besides the verbier one, definitely his best acceleration ever.

'09 verbier - The numbers say it all, you can make the argument that he also explode on arcalis though and he had a headwind there.

'11 etna - Not as good as the others ones since it took him a while to get rid off rujano but he was ahead of contador, no way he could have followed that first accelaration. Was pretty insane, scarponi got completely destroyed. Nibali didn't even try to follow, smart man.

A man can dream, one last explosion this tour. I put my money on la toussuire.

Montagne de lure 09', Angliru 08'

GT, contador 2008 wasn't at his best.

indeed. Leipheimer was better that Vuelta

Levi was stronger that Vuelta, as well the first Tour of Contador in 2007, but I think that although Contador was in 2008 at his best, with best numbers than now, Contador is a more talented rider than Levi (not in ITT), but what I am not sure is that he was more than other riders of those years.

 

[No_Balls]

I think that riders those days made their main money in Criteriums, not in races.

For me a modern born Merckx would have probably specialized into a lighter Combo GT-Hilly classics rider with a strong sprint, being able to win all the races the old Merckx won, except for the cobbles classics.

Balaverde is the closest in modern cycling to Merckx for sure in terms of overall ability. Remember he'd already won a GT (Vuelta 2009) and probably could have a won a couple more if it wasnt for Contador, Froome and other GT-specialists coming through from nowhere in later years.

Another reminiscent is Laurent Jalabert.

 

[rhubroma]

Valverde doesn't climb nor tt as well as Alberto Contador. He is a faster sprinter and a great hilly classics racer. But Contdor has a bigger engine.

 

[No_Balls]

Re:

Valverde doesn't climb nor tt as well as Alberto Contador. He is a faster sprinter and a great hilly classics racer. But Contdor has a bigger engine.

For sure. The point was not saying Valverde is better then AC (which people assumes automatically when you throw Eddy in the mix) but that he reminds about the cannibal in what races he performs in. True, there seems to always be that TT/climbing-specialist which comes through each generation who is the bit better GT-rider but he is not that far off.

And i am very convinced AC would annihilate Eddy in his prime over a mountain

 

[Kwibus]

Re:

people plz stop with comparing different eras. that belong to fantasy thread and my cloning future grand tours

contador is the best grand tour rider of the modern era (post bernard tapie). end of story. the great one

People listen to Jens.
His posts look silly because of the way he uses grammar, but he's by far one of the better posters here.

I'm jens-attacks biggest fan as well!

 

[SeriousSam]

I suppose it's not inconceivable someone with a greater engine (aerobic ability) than Valverde could be as good or better at short duration efforts, and Ed may have been such a person (I highly doubt it), but there are some hard biological limits there. You cannot win both the marathon and the sprint against today's specialists. You cannot win all the monuments and all the GTs repeatedly against today's specialists.

 

[Kwibus]

Re: Re:

Ps electress your most welcome ofcourse.

La flo don't be afraid.

I am very afraid

Be at peace with your admiration for Alberto. Be proud in that you are one of many that can appreciate what he brings to the sport. I'm sure it makes him happy to see his efforts are recognized and appreciated. Just don't scream like a Justin Bieber fan when you meet him. We (Contador fans) want pictures!

i intend on going early to Utrecht and actually try to get some pictures with riders, allthough im afraid they wont be very accesible due to huge crowds they are expecting. I hope so though!

The reason i dont want to go with friends/family is because I want to go full cyclingnerd

Well, Kwibus, I'm still seeing if I can get rid of my freelance contract in time to make the Grand Depart. It's touch and go trying to fit in the close out meeting, but if so, then I shall be in Utrecht and then go on to northern France from there, and am perfectly happy to join you in going full, unashamed cycling nerd!

I know what you mean - my brothers and friends have entirely given up on getting any sense out of me for July. ("Just don't go getting a tattoo, ok?" being the sentiment.)

And can I just say that posts like this one:

Alberto looking frisky. Just staying out of trouble or does he harbour secret GC asipirations?


of course he does. he's fuccin alberto contador

good time to change my avatar. time for the double

vamooooooooooooooooooooooooos

Make me want a 'like' button on this forum.

Think I need to get an avatar in honour of the double. All those lovely photos - such a difficult choice.

And Miburo - I so agree. If there's one thing that I really do want before he retires is a leave-everyone-begging-for-mercy-in-his-wake romp over one Alp or another, to remind us just how glorious Contador in full flight can be.

That's sort of what I want for the last year of his retirement, actually. An all-out exhibition of attacking on any stage he feels like. If he's done the double, what's another GT compared to watching Contador just racing for the sheer joy of it?

I wonder if more people feel like going there as well. La flo doesn't feel like meeting there and that's fine.
Anyone else?
Carols, buy a ticket and fly over to amsterdam. Go for a week of tdf (or 3) and meet us in Utrecht. Seriously that would be awesome. To meet the grandlady of the cn forum

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

I wonder if more people feel like going there as well. La flo doesn't feel like meeting there and that's fine.
Anyone else?
Carols, buy a ticket and fly over to amsterdam. Go for a week of tdf (or 3) and meet us in Utrecht. Seriously that would be awesome. To meet the grandlady of the cn forum

You should open a forum meet-up thread

 

[Angliru]

I'm sorry, I don't know what do you mean by "todays era", but talentwise both Jan Ullrich and Frank Vandenbroucke had the opportunity to evolve into multilple Monument GT winners.

Shame that they didnt have some of Valverde's not so recognised talents: professionalism and a strong work ethic...

I don't recall Vandenbroucke ever even reaching the podium of a grand tour. Stage wins and potentially a top 10 in a grand tour was the extent of his abilities in grand tours. I don't think he had the mental discipline to contend for the victory in grand tours.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

people plz stop with comparing different eras. that belong to fantasy thread and my cloning future grand tours

contador is the best grand tour rider of the modern era (post bernard tapie). end of story. the great one

People listen to Jens.
His posts look silly because of the way he uses grammar, but he's by far one of the better posters here.

I'm jens-attacks biggest fan as well!

silly? not at all

 

[Ryaguas]

Re: Re:

people plz stop with comparing different eras. that belong to fantasy thread and my cloning future grand tours

contador is the best grand tour rider of the modern era (post bernard tapie). end of story. the great one

People listen to Jens.
His posts look silly because of the way he uses grammar, but he's by far one of the better posters here.

I'm jens-attacks biggest fan as well!

Jens_attacks is the best! big fan over here!

 

[BlurryVII]

Ehh, Contador was well and truly the strongest climber in the Vuelta 08', he only lost a couple seconds in the last short uphill ITT. He was starting to lose form a bit as his time was equal to valverde's.

But really Leipheimer made up all the time back in the flat ITT stage 5.

But AC was better than him on Plat de beret, Angliru and fuente de invierno. Leihpeimer worked on Angliru but considering the extreme gradient, this couldn't have had too much effect on him. And he never would've been able to drop Valverde and Rodriguez and open up that gap the way AC did.