Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[Carstenbf]

Yeah, after all he only managed to win one GT last season.

 

[Jelantik]

our man is getting ready for PN. TT training.

 

[cantpedal]

Re:

Yeah, after all he only managed to win one GT last season.

That question I have of AC wasn't meant as a criticism or dig at AC. my thoughts are that he has now been a pro for 13 yrs. 10 of those years being as either the best or top 2 or three riders. That's a lot of miles, racing and wear and tear on his body. His top competition is either in his prime or young and coming into their prime.

 

[peloton]

Re: Re:

Yeah, after all he only managed to win one GT last season.

That question I have of AC wasn't meant as a criticism or dig at AC. my thoughts are that he has now been a pro for 13 yrs. 10 of those years being as either the best or top 2 or three riders. That's a lot of miles, racing and wear and tear on his body. His top competition is either in his prime or young and coming into their prime.

Horner says hi

 

[peloton]

our man is getting ready for PN. TT training.

Unless that's a downhill, that's the lowest position I've ever seen him in

 

[cantpedal]

Re: Re:

Yeah, after all he only managed to win one GT last season.

That question I have of AC wasn't meant as a criticism or dig at AC. my thoughts are that he has now been a pro for 13 yrs. 10 of those years being as either the best or top 2 or three riders. That's a lot of miles, racing and wear and tear on his body. His top competition is either in his prime or young and coming into their prime.

Horner says hi

has Horner ever raced a full year? or been at his level? CH would probably trade his best year for ACs worst. Nothing against Chris but he's never been near a top tier discussion.

 

[rm7]

Re:

Yeah, after all he only managed to win one GT last season.

Comments like this is why some people think Contador fans aren't normal and objective.

Yes he won a GT against Aru and Landa, and if it wasn't for Astanas tactics about prioritizing Aru all the time Landa could very well have won that Giro. Contador never reached his best level last year, which is worrying whether we like or not. There could be the obvious answer since he tried to go for both the Giro and the Tour.

But since Vuelta 2014 Contador haven't reached his top level, and a lot of riders decline from 31 of age to 33.

Lets have a look at Contador post-ban:
2013: sucked all year
2014: Reached toplevel
2015: Didn't suck, but not very good either. Still managed to win a GT again second tier opponents.
2016: 33 years old... that's the big question. Can he do it at this age?

I hope he can reach his 2014 level again, but I think it's a fair assesment that he's the one with questionmarks over his head rather than Froome.

 

[peloton]

@rm7 Against second tier opponents? Lol

 

[Taxus4a]

Re: Re:

Yeah, after all he only managed to win one GT last season.

That question I have of AC wasn't meant as a criticism or dig at AC. my thoughts are that he has now been a pro for 13 yrs. 10 of those years being as either the best or top 2 or three riders. That's a lot of miles, racing and wear and tear on his body. His top competition is either in his prime or young and coming into their prime.

Horner says hi

has Horner ever raced a full year? or been at his level? CH would probably trade his best year for ACs worst. Nothing against Chris but he's never been near a top tier discussion.

The first question has a sense... and the answer is: no really... the second question I have never understand... for each rider to be at his best level has the same burnout...for a bad and for a good rider... maybe more for a bad rider, becouse he is more time for every race.

The problem is mental. if you are not mentally string to train every day, of course you are not going to be as good as at 30, but you can stay at a good level till 45, as Rebellin, for instance.

In the case of Contador he sufered that mental stress for a long already at the top, and he is not going to be there to be at a second level, so I can understand he leaves this year, or the next one if he got a team. but this year he is in a very good age to perform, at his bet of very close, it cant be a excuse. Evans and Valverde has got his best result in le Tour at an older age, and Purito similar.

 

[rm7]

Re:

@rm7 Against second tier opponents? Lol

Do you rate Landa and Aru in the same category as Quintana and Froome?

 

[HelloDolly]

Do alot of riders really decline from 31 to 33 ?

Maybe that was in the past ? Look at Valverde , Greipel , Cancellera.
Last night in London Wiggins was the strongest in his pursuit team at nearly 36

Is it not maybe conditioning as most of the top riders used to retire at about 33 ...maybe now with advances in science and nutrition that decline is later

Or maybe it not so much physical but mental ...as you get older maybe you get tired of the commitment needed?
And then there is always a new kid on the block, yet another one to beat?
If you don't have long term injury or are not jaded I don't see why there is a decline from 31 to 33

For Contador it must be the issue of how much he puts into racing and how he has never had it easy with teams and support
He also has a bit of a lone ranger attitude to wining ...he always seems to be one man against the rest

The thing about cycling *and other sports) we need top rivals as only then can we appreciate champions
Contador needs Froome and Froome needs Contador ...so I hope for a very strong Contador in 2016 ...only if they are battling neck and neck will the race be epic....otherwise its like the 2014 Tour...

All the people on here who attack Froome should realise the Contador needs a worthy opponent to rise to the challenge or otherwise whats' the point. Quintana even though he has won GTs has yet to be tested imo

 

[Taxus4a]

Re:

Do alot of riders really decline from 31 to 33 ?

Maybe that was in the past ? Look at Valverde , Greipel , Cancellera.
Last night in London Wiggins was the strongest in his pursuit team at nearly 36

Is it not maybe conditioning as most of the top riders used to retire at about 33 ...maybe now with advances in science and nutrition that decline is later

Or maybe it not so much physical but mental ...as you get older maybe you get tired of the commitment needed?
And then there is always a new kid on the block, yet another one to beat?
If you don't have long term injury or are not jaded I don't see why there is a decline from 31 to 33

For Contador it must be the issue of how much he puts into racing and how he has never had it easy with teams and support
He also has a bit of a lone ranger attitude to wining ...he always seems to be one man against the rest

The thing about cycling *and other sports) we need top rivals as only then can we appreciate champions
Contador needs Froome and Froome needs Contador ...so I hope for a very strong Contador in 2016 ...only if they are battling neck and neck will the race be epic....otherwise its like the 2014 Tour...

All the people on here who attack Froome should realise the Contador needs a worthy opponent to rise to the challenge or otherwise whats' the point. Quintana even though he has won GTs has yet to be tested imo

We have lived a transitional era in cycling, so it is impossible to take some conclusions... In the past some people leaves cycling at 33, for reason i am not going to say here, but lot os big names of history has big result with more than 35.

i am sure nobody decline from 31 to 333, although each rider i and has a stoty.

I started to ride on bike at 31, I am now 38, and i have improve muy performance year by year, and this year, with 38 is the first I note I am at the same level of last year, so the age is no so important as the training year by year, but I woul be beter with 30 now, of course.

Close to my town there is 81 year old man who I can see still sometimes training, (curiusly everybody Know him by his surname, López) He was very good as young, but till 73 he had a cancer he was one of the best in my shire, excep the 2-3 best young people, he was similar to the rest.

if you note to decline from 31 to 33, this man should be at 30 perfoming averages of 50 Km/h in 100 Km training alone with climbs.

 

[Taxus4a]

Re: Re:

Yeah, after all he only managed to win one GT last season.

Comments like this is why some people think Contador fans aren't normal and objective.

Yes he won a GT against Aru and Landa, and if it wasn't for Astanas tactics about prioritizing Aru all the time Landa could very well have won that Giro. Contador never reached his best level last year, which is worrying whether we like or not. There could be the obvious answer since he tried to go for both the Giro and the Tour.

Maybe that is his level, he said he was at his bet level of his life, and he did the best long ITT I remerber for him.

 

[Taxus4a]

Re:

Do alot of riders really decline from 31 to 33 ?

Maybe that was in the past ? Look at Valverde , Greipel , Cancellera.
Last night in London Wiggins was the strongest in his pursuit team at nearly 36

Is it not maybe conditioning as most of the top riders used to retire at about 33 ...maybe now with advances in science and nutrition that decline is later

Or maybe it not so much physical but mental ...as you get older maybe you get tired of the commitment needed?
And then there is always a new kid on the block, yet another one to beat?
If you don't have long term injury or are not jaded I don't see why there is a decline from 31 to 33

For Contador it must be the issue of how much he puts into racing and how he has never had it easy with teams and support
He also has a bit of a lone ranger attitude to wining ...he always seems to be one man against the rest

The thing about cycling *and other sports) we need top rivals as only then can we appreciate champions
Contador needs Froome and Froome needs Contador ...so I hope for a very strong Contador in 2016 ...only if they are battling neck and neck will the race be epic....otherwise its like the 2014 Tour...

All the people on here who attack Froome should realise the Contador needs a worthy opponent to rise to the challenge or otherwise whats' the point. Quintana even though he has won GTs has yet to be tested imo

Quintana toay in a really hard stage is today clearly better than Contador. Maybe he hadnt the oportunity to show that still, (maybe last year in Tirreno...(I dont know really the shape of both of them) but we will see that in le Tour, although the stages are short and not very hard.

Anyway Contador was in the start of le Tour to win, that was the objetive, http://www.elperiodico.com/es/noticias/ciclismo/contador-vengo-con-objetivo-ganar-tour-4323599 (he said he has good feeling, but he would chose his feelings in 2014, and his main worry was recovery...but he showed weak from the begining)) so results like this are no so useless maybe, becouse is an important difference to think Contador could be there with Quintana in the best circunstances: http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=27958

We could take lot of answer this year Tour, so I hope Contador, who is well as we see in Malhao, get the into Tour in his best shape and heath.

 

[cantpedal]

Re:

Do alot of riders really decline from 31 to 33 ?

Maybe that was in the past ? Look at Valverde , Greipel , Cancellera.
Last night in London Wiggins was the strongest in his pursuit team at nearly 36

Is it not maybe conditioning as most of the top riders used to retire at about 33 ...maybe now with advances in science and nutrition that decline is later

Or maybe it not so much physical but mental ...as you get older maybe you get tired of the commitment needed?
And then there is always a new kid on the block, yet another one to beat?
If you don't have long term injury or are not jaded I don't see why there is a decline from 31 to 33

For Contador it must be the issue of how much he puts into racing and how he has never had it easy with teams and support
He also has a bit of a lone ranger attitude to wining ...he always seems to be one man against the rest

The thing about cycling *and other sports) we need top rivals as only then can we appreciate champions
Contador needs Froome and Froome needs Contador ...so I hope for a very strong Contador in 2016 ...only if they are battling neck and neck will the race be epic....otherwise its like the 2014 Tour...

All the people on here who attack Froome should realise the Contador needs a worthy opponent to rise to the challenge or otherwise whats' the point. Quintana even though he has won GTs has yet to be tested imo

It's rare to see a GT GC rider sustain that top level for so many years
Hinault 8-9 years
Merckz 9 years as a GT rider
Poulidor remarkable longevity but not quite top tier the whole time
Anquetil - maybe the best comparison now with 8 very strong years - still a very good rider after 1964 but a steady decline
I'd love to see him prove me wrong - as Dolly said He and Froome need each other to prove their greatness

^^^^before you AC fans blow up on me. note that I put him in some very high company

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

Do alot of riders really decline from 31 to 33 ?

Maybe that was in the past ? Look at Valverde , Greipel , Cancellera.
Last night in London Wiggins was the strongest in his pursuit team at nearly 36

Is it not maybe conditioning as most of the top riders used to retire at about 33 ...maybe now with advances in science and nutrition that decline is later

Or maybe it not so much physical but mental ...as you get older maybe you get tired of the commitment needed?
And then there is always a new kid on the block, yet another one to beat?
If you don't have long term injury or are not jaded I don't see why there is a decline from 31 to 33

For Contador it must be the issue of how much he puts into racing and how he has never had it easy with teams and support
He also has a bit of a lone ranger attitude to wining ...he always seems to be one man against the rest

The thing about cycling *and other sports) we need top rivals as only then can we appreciate champions
Contador needs Froome and Froome needs Contador ...so I hope for a very strong Contador in 2016 ...only if they are battling neck and neck will the race be epic....otherwise its like the 2014 Tour...

All the people on here who attack Froome should realise the Contador needs a worthy opponent to rise to the challenge or otherwise whats' the point. Quintana even though he has won GTs has yet to be tested imo

Quintana toay in a really hard stage is today clearly better than Contador. Maybe he hadnt the oportunity to show that still, (maybe last year in Tirreno...(I dont know really the shape of both of them) but we will see that in le Tour, although the stages are short and not very hard.

Anyway Contador was in the start of le Tour to win, that was the objetive, http://www.elperiodico.com/es/noticias/ciclismo/contador-vengo-con-objetivo-ganar-tour-4323599 (he said he has good feeling, but he would chose his feelings in 2014, and his main worry was recovery...but he showed weak from the begining)) so results like this are no so useless maybe, becouse is an important difference to think Contador could be there with Quintana in the best circunstances: http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=27958

We could take lot of answer this year Tour, so I hope Contador, who is well as we see in Malhao, get the into Tour in his best shape and heath.

Your initial assessment might be cunning, but it is factual nonsense. Quintana clearly gets better as the race progresses, but he isn't the racer Contador is, not does he have the explosivity when it truly matters. Forget Tirreno last year, as Alberto clearly wasn't near his best form, whereas Quintana was tops, even better than in the 2014 Giro. It would have been important to see Quintana in the 2014 Vuelta, but he crashed out. Yet even there he would have been more ideally prepared, having skipped the Tour and with Froome and Contador back from injury.

HelloDolly makes some very perceptive observations. Especially in regards to the amount of difficulty, when not all out adversity, AC has had to face within his own teams. It is important to stress that this should not be discounted. He's had a strange and in some ways inimical career. In the beginning his most worthy adversaries were the Chicken, Andy Schleck and, of course, the Cobra (who knows how that would have turned out otherwise?), then he had to live with Bruyneel, and even the Bruyneel-Armstrong debacle, then Riis, now Oleg. By contrast Sky comes along and produces a Froome. Everything falls into its "logical" place, with a mega-sponsor,all the amenities, support and a sense of "inevitability." No conflict, beyond a lugubrious Wiggins, but that got sorted out quickly.

Apart from the fact that I have always doubted that narrative, as I have previously made clear, it will truly take a Contador at his very best limit to slay this pray. If he even can do it. But age shouldn't be a problem. Unless he were lacking motivation, or was mentally broken. It's going to be a most interesting season to watch evolve. Especially if we already see big fireworks at PN and Catalunya. Take out your popcorn.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Oh look at Taxus trying to spin this into another "Contador can still reach his best level but others are just stronger" argument, how surprising
"No one declines between 31 and 33 so Contador will be at his best ever level so if he gets beaten others are just stronger than his best ever level"
"Evans and Valverde had their best ever performance at 34 so Contador will still be able to reach his best level as well"
"Contador said before the Giro he was at his best ever level but he wasn't very strong so his best ever level is clearly inferior to many other riders"
"33 is a very good age to perform so if he gets beaten this year age is not an excuse"

 

[LaFlorecita]

On-topic:
Of course age is of importance, and of course riders will usually decline between 31 and 33. Peak age is in the late twenties, and while scientific methods in the current peloton may be able to extend the age in which riders are able to perform at a decent to high level, it won't all of a sudden chance the physiological peak age of the body.
PCS has a very useful chart of PCS points per age
http://www.procyclingstats.com/statistics.php
It shows that at 26-27 riders score most points.
I rarely use PCS but I think this is a great chart as it has no outliers whatsoever. A very gradual rise and decline.
So if we take 26-28 as the average peak age, after that, this average rider will decline, and the only logical conclusion is that this rider will decline between 31 and 33 too. So there are a couple examples (Evans, Valverde, maybe Rodriguez) of riders not showing any sort of decline until their mid-thirties, but that does not mean every rider will follow a similar trajectory. As many have pointed out, Contador has been at the top since 2007, and even Hinault and Merckx only had a GT-winning range of 8-9 years. It would be absolutely unsurprising if he does not perform at his best level and gets beaten by others, if his decline is especially quick he could even get beaten by 2nd and 3rd tier climbers and GC riders. At the same time, it's also possible he manages to squeeze out one more year at a high level. Only time will tell.

 

[dacooley]

Oh look at Taxus trying to spin this into another "Contador can still reach his best level but others are just stronger" argument, how surprising

that's just another dogmatic, supremely generalized assertion. some fans are sincerely convinced that if bertie reaches his tip top shape and doesn't crash he'll win this year's tour. taxus is entirely entitled to believe his mantra. what's wrong with someone not having such optimistic expectations like you?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Oh look at Taxus trying to spin this into another "Contador can still reach his best level but others are just stronger" argument, how surprising

that's just another dogmatic, supremely generalized assertion. some fans are sincerely convinced that if bertie reaches his tip top shape and doesn't crash he'll win this year's tour. taxus is entirely entitled to believe his mantra. what's wrong with someone not having such optimistic expectations like you?

Taxus can have whatever opinion he likes but it irritates me that he expresses that opinion (Contador is always at his best even when he gets beaten and there are never any possible excuses) as if it were a fact. That is all.
This isn't the first time, he's done it for the better part of the last 2-3 years. Before a race, he posts " there is no reason Contador can't be in top shape so if he gets beaten his top shape just can't match others" and then when Contador gets beaten like many had foreseen, he posts "See, Contador was in top shape but got beaten." It's just very, very annoying.

 

[BlurryVII]

Oh look at Taxus trying to spin this into another "Contador can still reach his best level but others are just stronger" argument, how surprising

that's just another dogmatic, supremely generalized assertion. some fans are sincerely convinced that if bertie reaches his tip top shape and doesn't crash he'll win this year's tour. taxus is entirely entitled to believe his mantra. what's wrong with someone not having such optimistic expectations like you?

Facts have proven that Contador at his best is unbeatable. Taxus can have his opinion as everyone that's cool, but it's plain wrong.

Contador is not inferior to many riders when he is at his best. Simple as that really. You're gonna try to argue that too?

You have no arguments anyway, you just always come with the same posts over and over again 'oh but at the end of the day, it's just a dogmatic topic, everyone could be right'. Nope.

 

[BlurryVII]

Now he's probably gonna reply saying as usual 'But obviously when Contador loses, his fans always believe he is not at his best"

There are numbers, and circumstances that obviously show that. Are you gonna try to prove that Contador was at his best in 2013? In the Tour 2015 maybe? Go ahead.

I'm sure you can prove he was just as good as in the Tour 09' for example. It's just a question of point of view, isn't it?

 

[dacooley]

Oh look at Taxus trying to spin this into another "Contador can still reach his best level but others are just stronger" argument, how surprising

that's just another dogmatic, supremely generalized assertion. some fans are sincerely convinced that if bertie reaches his tip top shape and doesn't crash he'll win this year's tour. taxus is entirely entitled to believe his mantra. what's wrong with someone not having such optimistic expectations like you?

Facts have proven that Contador at his best is unbeatable. Taxus can have his opinion as everyone that's cool, but it's plain wrong.

Contador is not inferior to many riders when he is at his best. Simple as that really. You're gonna try to argue that too?

You have no arguments anyway, you just always come with the same posts over and over again 'oh but at the end of the day, it's just a dogmatic topic, everyone could be right'. Nope.

facts always relate to the past while we constantly talk about the present and the future. where is a guarantee of bertie, froome or anyone else reaching their physical peak? no one can be sure of that. in order to be considered the best today, you should prove it every season at any big race and that's what any sports about. however if one's favorite rider gets beaten that's not the reason to shift into the language of excuses because it instantly destroys a rational dispute. i clearly can see your view as a fan. the only thing i want to make emphasis on is all the fans have right to defend their riders so passionetely like you do and it doesn't make them delusional what you like to accuse them of, by the way. that's it.

There are numbers, and circumstances that obviously show that. Are you gonna try to prove that Contador was at his best in 2013? In the Tour 2015 maybe? Go ahead.

I'm sure you can prove he was just as good as in the Tour 09' for example. It's just a question of point of view, isn't it?

if you noticed I've never called contador or froome clearly the strongest gt rider nowadays. I don't know who stronger because they are very close. But the way how fanatically you're always willing to convince everyone who disagrees with you really baffles me.

as to the 2013 and 2015 tours, of course contador wasn't at his best, nonetheless I don't accept the discussion on the level of global dogmatic generalizations kind of vam vs vam, peak against peak and so on. I handle all the things way more simple: contador wasn't good enough to win the 2013 and 2015 tour, froome's 2014 season level didn't allow him to compete against contador on equal terms and so on.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Oh look at Taxus trying to spin this into another "Contador can still reach his best level but others are just stronger" argument, how surprising

that's just another dogmatic, supremely generalized assertion. some fans are sincerely convinced that if bertie reaches his tip top shape and doesn't crash he'll win this year's tour. taxus is entirely entitled to believe his mantra. what's wrong with someone not having such optimistic expectations like you?

Facts have proven that Contador at his best is unbeatable. Taxus can have his opinion as everyone that's cool, but it's plain wrong.

Contador is not inferior to many riders when he is at his best. Simple as that really. You're gonna try to argue that too?

You have no arguments anyway, you just always come with the same posts over and over again 'oh but at the end of the day, it's just a dogmatic topic, everyone could be right'. Nope.

Im interested in what fact suggest that Contador simply is unbeatable when in top shape? Its not 2009 anymore. He isn't unbeatable.

 

[dacooley]

Oh look at Taxus trying to spin this into another "Contador can still reach his best level but others are just stronger" argument, how surprising

that's just another dogmatic, supremely generalized assertion. some fans are sincerely convinced that if bertie reaches his tip top shape and doesn't crash he'll win this year's tour. taxus is entirely entitled to believe his mantra. what's wrong with someone not having such optimistic expectations like you?

Facts have proven that Contador at his best is unbeatable. Taxus can have his opinion as everyone that's cool, but it's plain wrong.

Contador is not inferior to many riders when he is at his best. Simple as that really. You're gonna try to argue that too?

You have no arguments anyway, you just always come with the same posts over and over again 'oh but at the end of the day, it's just a dogmatic topic, everyone could be right'. Nope.

Im interested in what fact suggest that Contador simply is unbeatable when in top shape? Its not 2009 anymore. He isn't unbeatable.

if i understand blurry correctly, to be regarded the strongest someone should either beat bertie's verbier vam or win >9 grand tours. until this happens, he's unbeatable when in top form.