Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[LeSensei]

Re: Re:

The fact that Contador hasn't succeded in the Tour since 2009 (2010) is not the reason to downplay the role of the Tour and come it down to pathetic july-fans rhetorics (one might think the forumboard is full of them). Oddly enough, nobody seems bothered to remember Merckx's prediction. If my memory serves me right, Cannibal was being fiercely ridiculed back then. Well, really looking forward to what team Trek will be building around AC.

I personally don't downplay the Tour. I know it's the biggest stage race of the year. What I meant was, AC has had great form since 2009/10. Form that likely would have won him the Tour. We all know when he had that great form and why he wasn't at the Tour with that great form. This statement doesn't take away from the grandeur of the Tour.

He hid from the big boys at the giro last year youre right hes better than the best he proved it winning lesser races against Aru and um Landa?

When Discovery trusted on Leipheimer to win that tour in 2007, did he hide? No. When Armstrong made his comeback to Astana, did he hide? No. After his sanction and near-humilliation at the Tour 2013 did he hide? No. He committed to work harder than ever. That's the true winner mentality.

He announced he'd ride Giro-Tour since September, to try and win BOTH. He had just won the Vuelta against Froome. He worked harder than anyone else that year to accomplish the double man and now you come here and dismiss that effort. Some people don't realise how lucky we are to have Contador in an sport that's growing ever so dull, as we've seen this Tour. Some people just don't deserve Contador, they deserve a full century of Sky-dominance.

 

[Cookster15]

Re: Re:

Be interesting to see what kind of team Trek-Segafredo puts together. With Mollema, they have a guy who can podium @ the Tour or Giro. Will Contador play the role of superdomestique, like Valverde has very recently?

Why would contador play domestique to a guy with awfull recovery and no chance of making the podium in either the tour or the giro no matter what you say? Alberto can still win those races he's 34 next year and still has at least 2-3 years at the top if Valverde is anything to go by.

Yes Valverde gives you hope. But I am not convinced Contador's Giro and Vuelta winning form would be enough against Froome and Sky. When Contador has attacked it is usually when the GC riders and teams have backed off for whatever reason e.g. fatigue. Sky just drive it to the end when one Super dom expires the next takes over. This is also why the Tour is boring compared to the others. But Aru and Landa are a good demonstration of the gulf in level between the Tour and the other GTs.

 

[IndianCyclist]

One really appreciates what Contador did in 2013 when compared with what Quintana did in 2016

 

[Gigs_98]

It's totally strange. He had 4 chances since 2016 and he just never turned up in the tour at top shape or crashed out. It's well possible that he is aging, but I'm just not sure yet. His spring this season was great, not any worse than in the year in which he won the tdf, but he crashed out. In 2015 there was the giro, in 2014 another crash and in 2013 he was just so bad that nobody can get the idea of saying that was his top level. If he had been in 2009 shape in 2014/16 we still wouldn't know.
But besides all that I think it is extremely important for his legacy to win the Vuelta this year AND that even if he doesn't win that Froome also doesn't do the double. If Contador just doesn't win we can say he is indeed aging, but if Froome wins he suddenly managed a double of gt's, exactly the one thing Contador was never able to do, not even at his best in 2011. If Froome wins everyone will say the giro 2015 and 2011 were only bad excuses and they would actually be right.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

I can't see Froome winning the Vuelta unless Contador and a few others are knocked out of the race.

 

[Red Rick]

It's totally strange. He had 4 chances since 2016 and he just never turned up in the tour at top shape or crashed out. It's well possible that he is aging, but I'm just not sure yet. His spring this season was great, not any worse than in the year in which he won the tdf, but he crashed out. In 2015 there was the giro, in 2014 another crash and in 2013 he was just so bad that nobody can get the idea of saying that was his top level. If he had been in 2009 shape in 2014/16 we still wouldn't know.
But besides all that I think it is extremely important for his legacy to win the Vuelta this year AND that even if he doesn't win that Froome also doesn't do the double. If Contador just doesn't win we can say he is indeed aging, but if Froome wins he suddenly managed a double of gt's, exactly the one thing Contador was never able to do, not even at his best in 2011. If Froome wins everyone will say the giro 2015 and 2011 were only bad excuses and they would actually be right.

It's simple really, suck, crash, Giro, crash. Nothing that indicates that he can't compete for the win anymore. On Col du Noyer he was at least the 2nd best man in the race, and look what happened with all those who rode a good Dauphine. Terrible luck is what has happened in the Tour, and I think it is total crap to depend ones legacy on one race.

Also, Tour-Vuelta doesn't even come close to Giro-Tour. Valverde deserves credit for what he did this year.

 

[Kokoso]

Don't get blaming bad luck for Contador fail - he himself said that the first crash was his fault. When someone says it was his fault, it is no longer bad luck.

 

[Thepirateisgood]

Re: Re:

I definitely think AC can win the Tour again. Froome isn't invincible. This year he just rode very smart. He gained time in some great ways and his team was of course superb. If AC could just not lose time early in the race, not crash, ect. he definitely has a chance to win the Tour again. Who cares about the Tour though...I'm hoping he finds form for the Vuelta.

ACs last win in the Tour was 2010 if you ignore the ban. That's 6 years ago when he was 27. By next year he will be 34 and been riding pro for 13 years and winning Grand Tours since the 2007 TdF. I tend to agree he should target the Vuelta or Giro as a Tour win is no longer realistic at his age with the Tour strength of teams like Sky, Movistar and Astana. Sad but I think this is the reality now.

AC is a victim of his own success. A Tour podium for a guy like Richie Porte would be an enormous achievement. But for Alberto Contador a Tour podium might be seen as a failure - only a win would be acceptable. I can't see that happening in 2017 at his age and longevity as a Pro.

This fact only means something to July fans. I think he has been perfectly capable (form wise) of winning Tours since then. We all know what has happened through the years since then.

I don't know what has happened since then, could you enlighten me please?
(No I'm not a "july fan", I'm more of a march-april fan, regardless of my number of posts which is supposed to say something to someone).

 

[ILovecycling]

Re:

Don't get blaming bad luck for Contador fail - he himself said that the first crash was his fault. When someone says it was his fault, it is no longer bad luck.

You do realise that those serious injuries (all on the left side) were from the 2nd crash?

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

I definitely think AC can win the Tour again. Froome isn't invincible. This year he just rode very smart. He gained time in some great ways and his team was of course superb. If AC could just not lose time early in the race, not crash, ect. he definitely has a chance to win the Tour again. Who cares about the Tour though...I'm hoping he finds form for the Vuelta.

ACs last win in the Tour was 2010 if you ignore the ban. That's 6 years ago when he was 27. By next year he will be 34 and been riding pro for 13 years and winning Grand Tours since the 2007 TdF. I tend to agree he should target the Vuelta or Giro as a Tour win is no longer realistic at his age with the Tour strength of teams like Sky, Movistar and Astana. Sad but I think this is the reality now.

AC is a victim of his own success. A Tour podium for a guy like Richie Porte would be an enormous achievement. But for Alberto Contador a Tour podium might be seen as a failure - only a win would be acceptable. I can't see that happening in 2017 at his age and longevity as a Pro.

This fact only means something to July fans. I think he has been perfectly capable (form wise) of winning Tours since then. We all know what has happened through the years since then.

I don't know what has happened since then, could you enlighten me please?
(No I'm not a "july fan", I'm more of a march-april fan, regardless of my number of posts which is supposed to say something to someone).

If you're going to ask someone to enlighten you about the last decade of cycling they're going to dismiss you as a troll, as well am I. But when I dismiss someone as a troll it's not so good, so please rephrase your question if you want a response from the knowledgeable members of this forum. or don't, it's up to you.

Cheers

 

[luckyboy]

I am no particular fan of Contador but I do find it sad somehow that he 'only' has two Tour wins now that I think about how Froome has three. Feels like the best stage racer of his generation should have more

 

[warmfuzzies]

Re:

I am no particular fan of Contador but I do find it sad somehow that he 'only' has two Tour wins now that I think about how Froome has three. Feels like the best stage racer of his generation should have more

Stage racing has changed dramatically since the mid 90s. Now, a team is constructed to help their #1 stage racer win the Tour, with another GT podium-quality racer serving as domestique. That Tour domestique then get to race for the Vuelta (a la Roberto Heras, 4 time Vuelta winner), or gets to challenge earlier in the year for the Giro. This impacts the # of GT wins a stage racer can collect during their career. Few would argue Nibali is a better stage racer than Contador, but he is second in GT wins to Contador during the late 'aughts' and 'teens. He also has won at least 1 of all 3 Tours. Yet I bet everyone on this board can name at least 5 racers (not named Contador) they consider better during these years than Nibali. So I conclude you cant just total GT wins and call the high scorer the best of his generation . . .

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re:

I am no particular fan of Contador but I do find it sad somehow that he 'only' has two Tour wins now that I think about how Froome has three. Feels like the best stage racer of his generation should have more

And he'd only have one if it wasn't for that pesky Cassani!

 

[Thepirateisgood]

Re: Re:

I definitely think AC can win the Tour again. Froome isn't invincible. This year he just rode very smart. He gained time in some great ways and his team was of course superb. If AC could just not lose time early in the race, not crash, ect. he definitely has a chance to win the Tour again. Who cares about the Tour though...I'm hoping he finds form for the Vuelta.

ACs last win in the Tour was 2010 if you ignore the ban. That's 6 years ago when he was 27. By next year he will be 34 and been riding pro for 13 years and winning Grand Tours since the 2007 TdF. I tend to agree he should target the Vuelta or Giro as a Tour win is no longer realistic at his age with the Tour strength of teams like Sky, Movistar and Astana. Sad but I think this is the reality now.

AC is a victim of his own success. A Tour podium for a guy like Richie Porte would be an enormous achievement. But for Alberto Contador a Tour podium might be seen as a failure - only a win would be acceptable. I can't see that happening in 2017 at his age and longevity as a Pro.

This fact only means something to July fans. I think he has been perfectly capable (form wise) of winning Tours since then. We all know what has happened through the years since then.

I don't know what has happened since then, could you enlighten me please?
(No I'm not a "july fan", I'm more of a march-april fan, regardless of my number of posts which is supposed to say something to someone).

If you're going to ask someone to enlighten you about the last decade of cycling they're going to dismiss you as a troll, as well am I. But when I dismiss someone as a troll it's not so good, so please rephrase your question if you want a response from the knowledgeable members of this forum. or don't, it's up to you.

Cheers

I'm sorry, I'm new here and trying to make sense of this forum.
I know very well the results for the last decade and so on, and if I come on as trolling it's not what I intend at all.
I don't know how to rephrase that question, because for me it seems there was some "hidden" meaning behind the post I was replying to.

For the record; I'm basically a fan of most road cyclists (Contador and Pantani above all). There is no vitriol to be found in here.

Cheers, and sorry again if I came about with the wrong side or something

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Re: Re:

I'm sorry, I'm new here and trying to make sense of this forum.
I know very well the results for the last decade and so on, and if I come on as trolling it's not what I intend at all.
I don't know how to rephrase that question, because for me it seems there was some "hidden" meaning behind the post I was replying to.

For the record; I'm basically a fan of most road cyclists (Contador and Pantani above all). There is no vitriol to be found in here.

Cheers, and sorry again if I came about with the wrong side or something[/quote]
The general consensus, at least in this thread, is that AC should have/ has done this over the last 9 years:
2007: Won the tour, even though Rasmussen probably should have. People disagree.
2008: was easily the strongest gt rider
2009: easily strongest gt rider
2010: was slightly weaker than 2009, but still stronget gt rider
2011: was in immense shape, and could have challenged for the double wasn't it for a few crashes and bad luck
2012: doping ban and a "bad" vuelta form wise
2013: was ***
2014: was back to his best but unfortunately fell
2015: did a giro at 90% to peak for tour, but failed
2016: was in good to great shape, but as we know fell.

So in theory he should/ could have won the tour in 2011, 2012 without ban, 2014 and this year.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Its up for debate in 2011, but riding the Giro (especially so 'reckless' with the Tour in mind) made it very, very hard. Especially with no team. Yeah, he crashed, but I think he maximum could have achieved a podium behind Evans and Andy.
I don't think he ever could have won the Tour in 2012 on that horrific route, but could have but up a very good fight at least. Much better than Nibali obviously.

2014 is intriguing. Lets say Froome didn't crash and Alberto didn't either: 33%, 33%, 33%. Your choice, depending on who you support. I still say Nibali in a dream would where we got to see those 3 in peak shape due to the cobbles. He wrecked them (Froome possibly a little less) and proceeded to wreck a weak field on the MTFs, very impressive nonetheless.

Could have made Tour 2016 exciting. Chances are Froome still would have won.

 

[Thepirateisgood]

Re: Re:

I'm sorry, I'm new here and trying to make sense of this forum.
I know very well the results for the last decade and so on, and if I come on as trolling it's not what I intend at all.
I don't know how to rephrase that question, because for me it seems there was some "hidden" meaning behind the post I was replying to.

For the record; I'm basically a fan of most road cyclists (Contador and Pantani above all). There is no vitriol to be found in here.

Cheers, and sorry again if I came about with the wrong side or something

The general consensus, at least in this thread, is that AC should have/ has done this over the last 9 years:
2007: Won the tour, even though Rasmussen probably should have. People disagree.
2008: was easily the strongest gt rider
2009: easily strongest gt rider
2010: was slightly weaker than 2009, but still stronget gt rider
2011: was in immense shape, and could have challenged for the double wasn't it for a few crashes and bad luck
2012: doping ban and a "bad" vuelta form wise
2013: was ****
2014: was back to his best but unfortunately fell
2015: did a giro at 90% to peak for tour, but failed
2016: was in good to great shape, but as we know fell.

So in theory he should/ could have won the tour in 2011, 2012 without ban, 2014 and this year.[/quote]

Well, that makes me even more confused? Seems you guys are good at wouldashoulda type of argument, but what's the point of that?

Anyway, hoping he will be at Trek next year with a strong team and which GT(s) he will target will surely be livened from his presence (I hope!)

Edit: Don't know why I'm now the quotee, as I should be the quoter (or something).. Well, it's late... good night.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Re: Re:

I'm sorry, I'm new here and trying to make sense of this forum.
I know very well the results for the last decade and so on, and if I come on as trolling it's not what I intend at all.
I don't know how to rephrase that question, because for me it seems there was some "hidden" meaning behind the post I was replying to.

For the record; I'm basically a fan of most road cyclists (Contador and Pantani above all). There is no vitriol to be found in here.

Cheers, and sorry again if I came about with the wrong side or something

The general consensus, at least in this thread, is that AC should have/ has done this over the last 9 years:
2007: Won the tour, even though Rasmussen probably should have. People disagree.
2008: was easily the strongest gt rider
2009: easily strongest gt rider
2010: was slightly weaker than 2009, but still stronget gt rider
2011: was in immense shape, and could have challenged for the double wasn't it for a few crashes and bad luck
2012: doping ban and a "bad" vuelta form wise
2013: was ****
2014: was back to his best but unfortunately fell
2015: did a giro at 90% to peak for tour, but failed
2016: was in good to great shape, but as we know fell.

So in theory he should/ could have won the tour in 2011, 2012 without ban, 2014 and this year.

Well, that makes me even more confused? Seems you guys are good at wouldashoulda type of argument, but what's the point of that?

Anyway, hoping he will be at Trek next year with a strong team and which GT(s) he will target will surely be livened from his presence (I hope!)[/quote]

Didn''t say I necessarily believe this
Persoanlly I think he was lucky in 07 was the best gc rider from 08-11 and then has been tier 1 gc rider, but not dominant (with the exception of 13, where he was awful). I do however believe he can win a tour again, which I guess makes me more of a fan than most people on this forum.

 

[LaFlorecita]

OMG if this is racing without Alberto.... I may have to give up once he retires

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

OMG if this is racing without Alberto.... I may have to give up once he retires

The great Lopez will take his place

 

[Valv.Piti]

Also forgot to mention that he obviously would have won the 2008 as easily, possibly more, than he did in 2009. No contest there.

LF: Yeah, probably the most pathetic GT ever. I also don't think its no coincidence that 3 of the absolute worst (Vuelta 11, Giro 12 and Tour 12) were once he was banned. There is some correlation, definitely. He may not be as good as in the past, but he is a racer.

 

[portugal11]

Re:

Also forgot to mention that he obviously would have won the 2008 as easily, possibly more, than he did in 2009. No contest there.

LF: Yeah, probably the most pathetic GT ever. I also don't think its no coincidence that 3 of the absolute worst (Vuelta 11, Giro 12 and Tour 12) were once he was banned. There is some correlation, definitely. He may not be as good as in the past, but he is a racer.

But strangely you are a fan of quintana... and i don't know why... maybe you're a woman and you think that he is beautiful

 

[portugal11]

Re:

Also forgot to mention that he obviously would have won the 2008 as easily, possibly more, than he did in 2009. No contest there.

LF: Yeah, probably the most pathetic GT ever. I also don't think its no coincidence that 3 of the absolute worst (Vuelta 11, Giro 12 and Tour 12) were once he was banned. There is some correlation, definitely. He may not be as good as in the past, but he is a racer.

Vuelta 2011 was good. Great battle between froome and cobo

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

Also forgot to mention that he obviously would have won the 2008 as easily, possibly more, than he did in 2009. No contest there.

LF: Yeah, probably the most pathetic GT ever. I also don't think its no coincidence that 3 of the absolute worst (Vuelta 11, Giro 12 and Tour 12) were once he was banned. There is some correlation, definitely. He may not be as good as in the past, but he is a racer.

But strangely you are a fan of quintana... and i don't know why... maybe you're a woman and you think that he is beautiful

Who you are becoming a fan of sometimes isn't logical, friend.

Its also quite a funny argument I am a boy, but Quintana isn't necessarily good looking. Contador defo looks better, so thats not the reason (if I was a laaaady)

 

[Thepirateisgood]

Re: Re:

I'm sorry, I'm new here and trying to make sense of this forum.
I know very well the results for the last decade and so on, and if I come on as trolling it's not what I intend at all.
I don't know how to rephrase that question, because for me it seems there was some "hidden" meaning behind the post I was replying to.

For the record; I'm basically a fan of most road cyclists (Contador and Pantani above all). There is no vitriol to be found in here.

Cheers, and sorry again if I came about with the wrong side or something

The general consensus, at least in this thread, is that AC should have/ has done this over the last 9 years:
2007: Won the tour, even though Rasmussen probably should have. People disagree.
2008: was easily the strongest gt rider
2009: easily strongest gt rider
2010: was slightly weaker than 2009, but still stronget gt rider
2011: was in immense shape, and could have challenged for the double wasn't it for a few crashes and bad luck
2012: doping ban and a "bad" vuelta form wise
2013: was ****
2014: was back to his best but unfortunately fell
2015: did a giro at 90% to peak for tour, but failed
2016: was in good to great shape, but as we know fell.

So in theory he should/ could have won the tour in 2011, 2012 without ban, 2014 and this year.

Well, that makes me even more confused? Seems you guys are good at wouldashoulda type of argument, but what's the point of that?

Anyway, hoping he will be at Trek next year with a strong team and which GT(s) he will target will surely be livened from his presence (I hope!)

Didn''t say I necessarily believe this
Persoanlly I think he was lucky in 07 was the best gc rider from 08-11 and then has been tier 1 gc rider, but not dominant (with the exception of 13, where he was awful). I do however believe he can win a tour again, which I guess makes me more of a fan than most people on this forum.[/quote]

Totally agree with your last sentence, he can definitely win a tour again (a young man still, if the power meter means f### all, why should his age?), so let's look forward instead of towards our behinds.
The rest seems a bit conditional, let's not get into what could have been. He's a great rider and an attacking fighter. That is enough for me, regardless of any situation or time.

Good night, and good luck! (He will win San Seb from late breakaway with 23 seconds, I see predictions are the game on this site, surely I must participate!).