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Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

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Re: Re:

lenric said:
LaFlorecita said:
lenric said:
LaFlorecita said:
lenric said:
At almost 34 years he's a liability.
Lol oh dear :eek:

Don't be so touchy touchy, it's just an opinion. ;)
I don't know, man, calling someone who can still finish on the podium of a GT a liability, ouch

I suppose you could call him a liability for his inability to stay on his bike, but that hasn't got much to do with his age ;)

Well, he can podium the Vuelta and he most certainly will, but right now he's in 4th place and the three riders in front of him have already ridden one GT this year. I know you are a Contador fangirl, but even you must take this important factor into account, because if both Froome and Quintana were as fresh as Contador is (or should be), then the spaniard would be way farther from them than he is right now.

Moreover, he's not getting better with age (as it is normal, since he's 33), while riders like Quintana, Yates, Bardet, Aru are. Froome and Nibali won't drop significantly their physical capacity next year, particularly Froome.

Because of all this reasons and his age (which makes him a liability, particularly since he's rocking since 2007), if he doesn't perform well in this Vuelta (and he isn't performing well, no matter how much crashes had taken a tool on him), then it is perfectly normal that Trek isn't keen on offering him a contract grating him a particularly high salary.

If a rider is older than the average GT winner, then offering him a contract for more than 1 year and with a high salary is risky. The same happens in all sports (particularly those who are very demanding, such as football). And to me this makes Contador a liability. If you disagree with my opinion, or can't understand it, that's ok, but it doesn't change the reality about older riders.
True, but in Chaves' case, it is an advantage that he's had a massive break after the Giro. Alberto, on the other hand, was peaking for the Tour and had to adapt to suddenly racing for the Vuelta instead.
 
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Doesn't add up to me that if I sign a Pele or Messi that i would not announce it immediately. Unless there are other factors like Lenric said, or I don't consider that person has the star power of a Messi or Pele anymore.
 
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Re:

jens_attacks said:
i hope alberto is just putting nairo in a false sense of security and destroys him in these last stages

sadly, movistar is uber strong...

I wish I can believe that. But problem is Contador doesn't have the fitness to drop Quintana and let alone Froome or even Chaves. So far, Chaves has matched him toe to toe, and even accelerating few times to drop him. If he does have the fitness then I have a hope that he could wreck havoc on Movistar armada...

sadly.. he didn't. So he'll get by with whatever fitness he has, and hope for the best.
 
Re: Re:

Jelantik said:
jens_attacks said:
i hope alberto is just putting nairo in a false sense of security and destroys him in these last stages

sadly, movistar is uber strong...

I wish I can believe that. But problem is Contador doesn't have the fitness to drop Quintana and let alone Froome or even Chaves. So far, Chaves has matched him toe to toe, and even accelerating few times to drop him. If he does have the fitness then I have a hope that he could wreck havoc on Movistar armada...

sadly.. he didn't. So he'll get by with whatever fitness he has, and hope for the best.

It has nothing to do with fitness. Valverde has ridden three GTs this year. Two in a row for Quintana and Froome, two for Chaves. As far as fitness goes Contador should be doing better than the other three as he is the fresher rider at the end of a season. The problem is he keeps falling off his bike and losing time at the beginning of races. You can't afford to do that against the best GT riders in the world and expect to compete on a level playing field. He is showing in the last few stages that he is finishing the race as strong as anyone as he should be. I expect him to do well on the final stages but only bad luck beats Quintana now.
 
Re: Re:

movingtarget said:
Jelantik said:
jens_attacks said:
i hope alberto is just putting nairo in a false sense of security and destroys him in these last stages

sadly, movistar is uber strong...

I wish I can believe that. But problem is Contador doesn't have the fitness to drop Quintana and let alone Froome or even Chaves. So far, Chaves has matched him toe to toe, and even accelerating few times to drop him. If he does have the fitness then I have a hope that he could wreck havoc on Movistar armada...

sadly.. he didn't. So he'll get by with whatever fitness he has, and hope for the best.

It has nothing to do with fitness. Valverde has ridden three GTs this year. Two in a row for Quintana and Froome, two for Chaves. As far as fitness goes Contador should be doing better than the other three as he is the fresher rider at the end of a season. The problem is he keeps falling off his bike and losing time at the beginning of races. You can't afford to do that against the best GT riders in the world and expect to compete on a level playing field. He is showing in the last few stages that he is finishing the race as strong as anyone as he should be. I expect him to do well on the final stages but only bad luck beats Quintana now.

It has all to do with fitness and more spesifically the stamina for high pace in ascents.

He was able to finish stage 17 with the bests because the climb was only ~4 km. That distance he does have in his legs. Even in the other short peak finishes where there was ~ 6 km to climb, he was still even dueling with Quintana with all others dropped when there where ~2 km left. And dropped like stone soon after.

The key is he does have the kick and power, but he does not have the stamina to sustain it for long enough time. We've seen that over and over again in this Vuelta.
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
LaFlorecita said:
DFA123 said:
Perhaps Mollema's and Pantano's impressive showings in the Tour have cast doubt on exactly how much value Contador would add to the team. His performance in this Vuelta is only going to compound those doubts and make Trek think twice. If it hasn't already been signed and confirmed, I imagine they will at least look to negotiate a lower basic salary.
Yeah, that would be a great start to a new partnership. "Hey, uhm, so we don't have much faith in you anymore, so, uhm, could we possibly lower your salary by a million or so?"
Well, I agree it's a bit disrespectful in a way, but it's business. Trek aren't a charity retirement home, and with Mollema looking capable of a top 5 at the Tour - Contador doesn't seem to offer a great improvement on that based on his form in this Vuelta.

Alternatively, of course, he may have already signed weeks ago. :)

Mollema is also the type of rider who might never get another top 5.

At least Contador can get a podium in a GT
 
Re: Re:

Scarponi said:
DFA123 said:
LaFlorecita said:
DFA123 said:
Perhaps Mollema's and Pantano's impressive showings in the Tour have cast doubt on exactly how much value Contador would add to the team. His performance in this Vuelta is only going to compound those doubts and make Trek think twice. If it hasn't already been signed and confirmed, I imagine they will at least look to negotiate a lower basic salary.
Yeah, that would be a great start to a new partnership. "Hey, uhm, so we don't have much faith in you anymore, so, uhm, could we possibly lower your salary by a million or so?"
Well, I agree it's a bit disrespectful in a way, but it's business. Trek aren't a charity retirement home, and with Mollema looking capable of a top 5 at the Tour - Contador doesn't seem to offer a great improvement on that based on his form in this Vuelta.

Alternatively, of course, he may have already signed weeks ago. :)

Mollema is also the type of rider who might never get another top 5.

At least Contador can get a podium in a GT
Possibly true, but the problem is that Contador now doesn't guarantee a resuls like he did in the past. In that respect he's not so different to Mollema; there is potential for a good result, but it's not a sure thing. Contador obviously has slightly more potential for a good result than Mollema, but at a significantly greater price. And that's just talking about GTs - Mollema also has the potential to win classics. It's also possible that Mollema has demanded to be leader at the Tour again next year - which, if Contador is demanding the same - would put Trek in an awkward situation. Would they be willing to sign Contador if it risked losing Mollema?

Trek have just got rid of an aging rider on a massive salary, who has not got many significant results for them in the last couple of years and had a problem staying on his bike at times. You could understand them being wary of replacing him with someone similar. Especially so now that Mollema looks like he has the condition to finally challenge for podiums in GTs.
 
Re: Re:

bambino said:
movingtarget said:
Jelantik said:
jens_attacks said:
i hope alberto is just putting nairo in a false sense of security and destroys him in these last stages

sadly, movistar is uber strong...

I wish I can believe that. But problem is Contador doesn't have the fitness to drop Quintana and let alone Froome or even Chaves. So far, Chaves has matched him toe to toe, and even accelerating few times to drop him. If he does have the fitness then I have a hope that he could wreck havoc on Movistar armada...

sadly.. he didn't. So he'll get by with whatever fitness he has, and hope for the best.

It has nothing to do with fitness. Valverde has ridden three GTs this year. Two in a row for Quintana and Froome, two for Chaves. As far as fitness goes Contador should be doing better than the other three as he is the fresher rider at the end of a season. The problem is he keeps falling off his bike and losing time at the beginning of races. You can't afford to do that against the best GT riders in the world and expect to compete on a level playing field. He is showing in the last few stages that he is finishing the race as strong as anyone as he should be. I expect him to do well on the final stages but only bad luck beats Quintana now.

It has all to do with fitness and more spesifically the stamina for high pace in ascents.

He was able to finish stage 17 with the bests because the climb was only ~4 km. That distance he does have in his legs. Even in the other short peak finishes where there was ~ 6 km to climb, he was still even dueling with Quintana with all others dropped when there where ~2 km left. And dropped like stone soon after.

The key is he does have the kick and power, but he does not have the stamina to sustain it for long enough time. We've seen that over and over again in this Vuelta.

I disagree. Take out the falls in the first week and the time he lost and he is in the running. People talk about Contador as if he has more improvement left in him. We hear it every year, if it's not this it's that. Contador was prepared for the Tour and finished half the race, he had a break and straight into the Vuelta. At his age this is the best you will see now. It's the falls and maybe the effects of the falls that don't help him in his recovery. All athletes have a peak and Contador is past his but he still remains competitive. It's his attitude and commitment that are keeping him near the top but without winning. Unless he does the Giro next year which is unlikely it's hard to see him winning another grand tour. His new team will expect him to do the Tour.
 
Even a 34-year old Contador in poor form will likely finish top-5, at worst 6th or 7th in the Tour, while for Mollema that would be about as expected. A 34-year old Contador in good form will almost certainly finish in the top-5 and likely on the podium, who knows on what step. Bottom line Contador, even at 34, is a much better and safer bet for GC than Mollema.

Of course, I'd love to see him go for the Giro and afterwards the Vuelta instead, but I think it's silly to say Mollema is as good a card to play for GC as Contador. I feel Contador has the better chances of success in those races, not just because the level is lower but also because, historically, he has much better luck in the Giro and Vuelta.
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
Scarponi said:
DFA123 said:
LaFlorecita said:
DFA123 said:
Perhaps Mollema's and Pantano's impressive showings in the Tour have cast doubt on exactly how much value Contador would add to the team. His performance in this Vuelta is only going to compound those doubts and make Trek think twice. If it hasn't already been signed and confirmed, I imagine they will at least look to negotiate a lower basic salary.
Yeah, that would be a great start to a new partnership. "Hey, uhm, so we don't have much faith in you anymore, so, uhm, could we possibly lower your salary by a million or so?"
Well, I agree it's a bit disrespectful in a way, but it's business. Trek aren't a charity retirement home, and with Mollema looking capable of a top 5 at the Tour - Contador doesn't seem to offer a great improvement on that based on his form in this Vuelta.

Alternatively, of course, he may have already signed weeks ago. :)

Mollema is also the type of rider who might never get another top 5.

At least Contador can get a podium in a GT
Possibly true, but the problem is that Contador now doesn't guarantee a resuls like he did in the past. In that respect he's not so different to Mollema; there is potential for a good result, but it's not a sure thing. Contador obviously has slightly more potential for a good result than Mollema, but at a significantly greater price. And that's just talking about GTs - Mollema also has the potential to win classics. It's also possible that Mollema has demanded to be leader at the Tour again next year - which, if Contador is demanding the same - would put Trek in an awkward situation. Would they be willing to sign Contador if it risked losing Mollema?

Trek have just got rid of an aging rider on a massive salary, who has not got many significant results for them in the last couple of years and had a problem staying on his bike at times. You could understand them being wary of replacing him with someone similar. Especially so now that Mollema looks like he has the condition to finally challenge for podiums in GTs.

Precisely. That's why he is a liability, particularly with his increasing will to hit the tarmac in every GT he has entered.
 
Re:

LaFlorecita said:
Even a 34-year old Contador in poor form will likely finish top-5, at worst 6th or 7th in the Tour, while for Mollema that would be about as expected. A 34-year old Contador in good form will almost certainly finish in the top-5 and likely on the podium, who knows on what step. Bottom line Contador, even at 34, is a much better and safer bet for GC than Mollema.

Of course, I'd love to see him go for the Giro and afterwards the Vuelta instead, but I think it's silly to say Mollema is as good a card to play for GC as Contador. I feel Contador has the better chances of success in those races, not just because the level is lower but also because, historically, he has much better luck in the Giro and Vuelta.
Sure, I don't disagree with any of that. But, the issue is whether Contador is significantly better than Mollema to justify paying him several million euros for two years. Is it worth spending 5m euros or whatever on a guy who might finish two places higher in the Tour de France, but who is also pretty unlikely to win it?

If we're not talking about the Tour, and focus on Giro and Vuelta instead, the question is basically the same. Is it worth spending several million euros on a guy to lead just those races - with significantly less publicity than the Tour - and which he is certainly not guaranteed or even the favourite to win any more (unlike in the past)?
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
LaFlorecita said:
Even a 34-year old Contador in poor form will likely finish top-5, at worst 6th or 7th in the Tour, while for Mollema that would be about as expected. A 34-year old Contador in good form will almost certainly finish in the top-5 and likely on the podium, who knows on what step. Bottom line Contador, even at 34, is a much better and safer bet for GC than Mollema.

Of course, I'd love to see him go for the Giro and afterwards the Vuelta instead, but I think it's silly to say Mollema is as good a card to play for GC as Contador. I feel Contador has the better chances of success in those races, not just because the level is lower but also because, historically, he has much better luck in the Giro and Vuelta.
Sure, I don't disagree with any of that. But, the issue is whether Contador is significantly better than Mollema to justify paying him several million euros for two years. Is it worth spending 5m euros or whatever on a guy who might finish two places higher in the Tour de France, but who is also pretty unlikely to win it?

If we're not talking about the Tour, and focus on Giro and Vuelta instead, the question is basically the same. Is it worth spending several million euros on a guy to lead just those races - with significantly less publicity than the Tour - and which he is certainly not guaranteed or even the favourite to win any more (unlike in the past)?

Agree. The question is not whether he is better bet to higher GC position than Mollema in the next 2 years. Yes he definitely is. The question is whether he is so much better that it is worth to spend the amount of extra money that probably equals more than 10% of the whole teams budget.
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
Scarponi said:
DFA123 said:
LaFlorecita said:
DFA123 said:
Perhaps Mollema's and Pantano's impressive showings in the Tour have cast doubt on exactly how much value Contador would add to the team. His performance in this Vuelta is only going to compound those doubts and make Trek think twice. If it hasn't already been signed and confirmed, I imagine they will at least look to negotiate a lower basic salary.
Yeah, that would be a great start to a new partnership. "Hey, uhm, so we don't have much faith in you anymore, so, uhm, could we possibly lower your salary by a million or so?"
Well, I agree it's a bit disrespectful in a way, but it's business. Trek aren't a charity retirement home, and with Mollema looking capable of a top 5 at the Tour - Contador doesn't seem to offer a great improvement on that based on his form in this Vuelta.

Alternatively, of course, he may have already signed weeks ago. :)

Mollema is also the type of rider who might never get another top 5.

At least Contador can get a podium in a GT
Possibly true, but the problem is that Contador now doesn't guarantee a resuls like he did in the past. In that respect he's not so different to Mollema; there is potential for a good result, but it's not a sure thing. Contador obviously has slightly more potential for a good result than Mollema, but at a significantly greater price. And that's just talking about GTs - Mollema also has the potential to win classics. It's also possible that Mollema has demanded to be leader at the Tour again next year - which, if Contador is demanding the same - would put Trek in an awkward situation. Would they be willing to sign Contador if it risked losing Mollema?

Trek have just got rid of an aging rider on a massive salary, who has not got many significant results for them in the last couple of years and had a problem staying on his bike at times. You could understand them being wary of replacing him with someone similar. Especially so now that Mollema looks like he has the condition to finally challenge for podiums in GTs.
I think you neglect some of the great results, Alberto has had in the spring season. In my opinion Bauke is a big liability for those stage races, not always delivering, whereas Alberto always delivers on a much higher level.
Bauke lacks the flair for racing stage races - a skill that Alberto still has and uses to great advantage.
 
I doubt Mollema is on less than a mill himself, and he's typically a rider nobody but the Dutch care about. Contador is still a TdF contender in the eyes of many, no matter the truth. And he's still one of the top 5 names in cycling and has way more star power and market value than Mollema in that regard.

I don't think Contador is worth as much as he to be, but he's still worth far more than any stage racer who's barely cracked the top 5 in GTs
 
It's not just question of results and potential but also of publicity. Contador, even when not dominant, get huge interest from the media and the fans. Mollema only gets a bit of publicity in the Dutch media and a tiny little bit outside of it. IMO it is worth spending an extra 1-1.5 million euros on that (I don't know what Mollema gets) - let's be real, Contador's not getting anywhere near 5m, he was on around 3 million these last few years at Tinkoff and it's likely he will get less at Trek, considering his age. He might get some extra money from Trek (the sponsor) though, with Cancellara (great example of a rider not as dominant anymore but still a guarantee for good results and lots of publicity) retiring, Trek wanted another marquee rider to advertise their brand and Contador fits that demand perfectly so perhaps they threw in some extra money.

Edit: lol, ninja'd by Red Rick :eek:
 
Re:

Red Rick said:
I doubt Mollema is on less than a mill himself, and he's typically a rider nobody but the Dutch care about. Contador is still a TdF contender in the eyes of many, no matter the truth. And he's still one of the top 5 names in cycling and has way more star power and market value than Mollema in that regard.

I don't think Contador is worth as much as he to be, but he's still worth far more than any stage racer who's barely cracked the top 5 in GTs
I guess that depends on what they would be buying him for. If they were buying him for exposure and to get Contador's many armchair fans onboard - he might still be reasonable value for money. Although I'm not sure exactly how many extra bikes they would sell by having a star rider no longer performing to the same level as he used to do. Indeed, if his poor form continues, much of the publicity around him could be pretty negative next season.

If they were buying him predominantly for sporting reasons - investing in a potential Tour de France winner - then, based on this season, he certainly doesn't represent such good value. And you could understand why they might be having second thoughts, or perhaps are trying to re-negotiate a lower salary.
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
Red Rick said:
I doubt Mollema is on less than a mill himself, and he's typically a rider nobody but the Dutch care about. Contador is still a TdF contender in the eyes of many, no matter the truth. And he's still one of the top 5 names in cycling and has way more star power and market value than Mollema in that regard.

I don't think Contador is worth as much as he to be, but he's still worth far more than any stage racer who's barely cracked the top 5 in GTs
I guess that depends on what they would be buying him for. If they were buying him for exposure and to get Contador's many armchair fans onboard - he might still be reasonable value for money. Although I'm not sure exactly how many extra bikes they would sell by having a star rider no longer performing to the same level as he used to do. Indeed, if his poor form continues, much of the publicity around him could be pretty negative next season.

If they were buying him predominantly for sporting reasons - investing in a potential Tour de France winner - then, based on this season, he certainly doesn't represent such good value. And you could understand why they might be having second thoughts, or perhaps are trying to re-negotiate a lower salary.

Well, I'd guess there's high demand for possible Tour champions, and the amount of them is very low. Only 2 riders I'd rate higher in that regard, and they're both unavailable and more expensive most likely. Contador is also highly competitive in the spring and a lot more reliable to take wins than a guy like Mollema. And it's not just a name, it's also an association with the way that he rides.

There's definitely worse deals out there, and if you want to win the Tour, better pay 2.5 mill for a guy with a 10% shot than 1.5 mill for a guy with a 0% shot and a high chance of completely failing altogether. I'm talking about you TJVG

On the other hand, I don't think Contador is at the point in his career where he should care very much about the money. Having 2 good seasons is way more imporant, and I guess Trek could use that to negotiate a lower wage.
 
Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
DFA123 said:
Red Rick said:
I doubt Mollema is on less than a mill himself, and he's typically a rider nobody but the Dutch care about. Contador is still a TdF contender in the eyes of many, no matter the truth. And he's still one of the top 5 names in cycling and has way more star power and market value than Mollema in that regard.

I don't think Contador is worth as much as he to be, but he's still worth far more than any stage racer who's barely cracked the top 5 in GTs
I guess that depends on what they would be buying him for. If they were buying him for exposure and to get Contador's many armchair fans onboard - he might still be reasonable value for money. Although I'm not sure exactly how many extra bikes they would sell by having a star rider no longer performing to the same level as he used to do. Indeed, if his poor form continues, much of the publicity around him could be pretty negative next season.

If they were buying him predominantly for sporting reasons - investing in a potential Tour de France winner - then, based on this season, he certainly doesn't represent such good value. And you could understand why they might be having second thoughts, or perhaps are trying to re-negotiate a lower salary.

Well, I'd guess there's high demand for possible Tour champions, and the amount of them is very low. Only 2 riders I'd rate higher in that regard, and they're both unavailable and more expensive most likely. Contador is also highly competitive in the spring and a lot more reliable to take wins than a guy like Mollema. And it's not just a name, it's also an association with the way that he rides.

There's definitely worse deals out there, and if you want to win the Tour, better pay 2.5 mill for a guy with a 10% shot than 1.5 mill for a guy with a 0% shot and a high chance of completely failing altogether. I'm talking about you TJVG

On the other hand, I don't think Contador is at the point in his career where he should care very much about the money. Having 2 good seasons is way more imporant, and I guess Trek could use that to negotiate a lower wage.
Definitely agree about guys like TJVG, but I think you're being a little harsh on Mollema. Despite results perhaps not reflecting it, I think he's had a bit of a break through year in terms of perfomances and believing he can compete amongst the best. Also, it's still possible he could improve at his age; whereas Contador, at 33 and with 10 years of hard GT racing in his legs, is surely in terminal decline now.

If you gave Trek the choice of keeping Mollema possibly for four years or having Contador for two years; I'm not sure it's such an easy decision to make. Particularly not with Contador's extra salary demands. Although Contador wins stage races, don't forget Mollema has won a classic this season and has an outside shot at monuments like Lombardia or LBL. Of course, ideal would be to have them both. But if both are demanding to ride the Tour as leader next year, then it's a tough call.
 
While I think Mollema is a bit of a tit with a big ego, he didn't seem too concerned about the idea of riding with Contador, in fact he said he thought it would be "really cool".

This could actually turn out to be beneficial for Mollema, because I feel he might go to the Giro instead and he definitely has a much bigger chance at a podium there.
 
Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
Well, I'd guess there's high demand for possible Tour champions, and the amount of them is very low. Only 2 riders I'd rate higher in that regard, and they're both unavailable and more expensive most likely.
Is Quintana more expensive than Contador at this point? It's most likely moot, as I don't see him leaving Movistar, but I don't think he's currently making more than Alberto.
 
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Wow... Froome almost 30 sec quicker than Alberto at the first time check. I'm surprised, I expected Froome's legs to be heavy at this stage of the Vuelta. Thought there was a good chance Alberto could maybe pip him in the TT.