Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[Pentacycle]

just like the PN thread this just goes to show how long you have been watching cycling.

My lack of experience watching cycling won't hold me down in posting here... I'm still learning about cycling every day and it's great to discuss it here, but give me a break, I don't judge you here either.

 

[skidmark]

If Cancellara had more years like 2010, there's no way Boonen would have won as much as he's done now. And stage racing are much more demanding than classics. It's much harder to win every GT you enter than classics, as there are much more opportunities to win. Boonen also has to win MSR to be a true legend, it's a large gap in his palmares. Even Cancellara has won it, while Boonen as a sprinter should perhaps have won it multiple times by now. Contador for me is a much better rider, he has overcome many difficult periods in his career, which makes him imo a true champion.

I thoroughly disagree. GTs are 3 weeks, the cream rises to the top. Sure, you have to avoid crashes and bad days, but you do in classics as well. But in a hard GT stage, if you're a top rider and have a mechanical at a key time, guys will either wait for you, or you'll lose a bit of time that you can gain back the next day. In a classic, it's just over. Plus in a GT, if your teammate made a key break on a key GC day, there isn't the same tactical 'who's going to pull him back' games there are in a classic, where everything is on the line. Favourites will still ride hard up the mountain and attack each other, and the best will be the best. There is so much more going on in classics that make it unpredictable. Impressive as Contador's GT record is (and guys like Indurain, and - yech - Armstrong winning so many in a row), I think feats like Boonen last year and Gilbert in the Ardennes in 2011 are more impressive.

 

[Netserk]

I thoroughly disagree. GTs are 3 weeks, the cream rises to the top. Sure, you have to avoid crashes and bad days, but you do in classics as well. But in a hard GT stage, if you're a top rider and have a mechanical at a key time, guys will either wait for you, or you'll lose a bit of time that you can gain back the next day. In a classic, it's just over. Plus in a GT, if your teammate made a key break on a key GC day, there isn't the same tactical 'who's going to pull him back' games there are in a classic, where everything is on the line. Favourites will still ride hard up the mountain and attack each other, and the best will be the best. There is so much more going on in classics that make it unpredictable. Impressive as Contador's GT record is (and guys like Indurain, and - yech - Armstrong winning so many in a row), I think feats like Boonen last year and Gilbert in the Ardennes in 2011 are more impressive.

Indeed. Before Gilbert in '11, Amstel was won by a new rider 15 years in a row. That would never happen in a GT.

 

[LaFlorecita]

I thoroughly disagree. GTs are 3 weeks, the cream rises to the top. Sure, you have to avoid crashes and bad days, but you do in classics as well. But in a hard GT stage, if you're a top rider and have a mechanical at a key time, guys will either wait for you, or you'll lose a bit of time that you can gain back the next day. In a classic, it's just over. Plus in a GT, if your teammate made a key break on a key GC day, there isn't the same tactical 'who's going to pull him back' games there are in a classic, where everything is on the line. Favourites will still ride hard up the mountain and attack each other, and the best will be the best. There is so much more going on in classics that make it unpredictable. Impressive as Contador's GT record is (and guys like Indurain, and - yech - Armstrong winning so many in a row), I think feats like Boonen last year and Gilbert in the Ardennes in 2011 are more impressive.

I disagree

 

[LaFlorecita]

Indeed. Before Gilbert in '11, Amstel was won by a new rider 15 years in a row. That would never happen in a GT.

Let's see

since 2006 because that's after the armstrong years

Vuelta:
2012 CONTADOR VELASCO Alberto
2011 COBO ACEBO Juan Jose
2010 NIBALI Vincenzo
2009 VALVERDE BELMONTE Alejandro
2008 CONTADOR VELASCO Alberto
2007 MENCHOV Denis
2006 VINOKOUROV Alexandre

Giro:
2012 HESJEDAL Ryder
2011 SCARPONI Michele
2010 BASSO Ivan
2009 MENCHOV Denis
2008 CONTADOR VELASCO Alberto
2007 DI LUCA Danilo
2006 BASSO Ivan

Tour:
2012 WIGGINS Bradley
2011 EVANS Cadel
2010 SCHLECK Andy
2009 CONTADOR VELASCO Alberto
2008 SASTRE CANDIL Carlos
2007 CONTADOR VELASCO Alberto
2006 PEREIRO SIO Oscar

And there is a fair chance that we get a new winner for every GT this year

Sure the amount of possible GT winners is limited compared to the amount of possible classic winners but it's not as predictable as you make it out to be.

 

[Pentacycle]

Indeed. Before Gilbert in '11, Amstel was won by a new rider 15 years in a row. That would never happen in a GT.

Indeed, classics require more luck, because there are many more possible winners than in a GT. But then again, when you have a Gilbert in his 2011 shape, or Boonen last year in the spring, there won't be many contenders left in the classics they target. Same goes for when Contador is in top shape in the Tour.

 

[Carols]

I disagree

Me also

IMO GTs are the pinnacle of the sport, you need to be very good for 21 days, not 1.

When Boonen adds MSR he will be a legendary classics rider.

But comparing that to a guy who has won ALL 3 GTs, is a no contest! Totally a class above a 1 day rider.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Me also

IMO GTs are the pinnacle if the sport, you need to be very good for 21 days, not 1.

When Boonen adds MSR he will be a legendary classics rider.

But comparing that to a guy who has won ALL 3 GTs, is a no contest! Totally a class above a 1 day rider.

Exactly this, well said.

 

[serfla]

Me also

IMO GTs are the pinnacle if the sport, you need to be very good for 21 days, not 1.

When Boonen adds MSR he will be a legendary classics rider.

But comparing that to a guy who has won ALL 3 GTs, is a no contest! Totally a class above a 1 day rider.

It's just your preference.
The same way Boonen can't win a GT, Contador can't win a cobbled Monument, Classic or semi-Classic. More over - he doesn't even ride them.
Yes, in a GT you have to be very good for 21 days, but in a Classic you have to be in top form as well, and everything is decided in one day. There's no tomorrow.
So, different cups of tea, but not more or less demanding or stressful.

 

[LaFlorecita]

It's just your preference.
The same way Boonen can't win a GT, Contador can't win a cobbled Monument, Classic or semi-Classic. More over - he doesn't even ride them.
Yes, in a GT you have to be very good for 21 days, but in a Classic you have to be in top form as well, and everything is decided in one day. There's no tomorrow.
So, different cups of tea, but not more or less demanding or stressful.

He's ridden classics and he could win one if he made it his goal - but he doesn't, because his goal is TDF

 

[serfla]

He's ridden classics and he could win one if he made it his goal - but he doesn't, because his goal is TDF

Cobbled Classic?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Cobbled Classic?

Oh my bad thought you meant classics in general

 

[Carols]

I realize there are people that value 1 day races as equal to GTs. But how many points/purses do you get for winning a classic vs a GT? How much prestige is attached?

It's like in horse racing. A sprinter could run the table of all their races in a season and will never be classed above a distance horse. Just the way it is, distance races have higher purses and prestige. Same with bike races

 

[Netserk]

I realize there are people that value 1 day races as equal to GTs. But how many points/purses do you get for winning a classic vs a GT? How much prestige is attached?

It's like in horse racing. A sprinter could run the table of all their races in a season and will never be classed above a distance horse. Just the way it is, distance races have higher purses and prestige. Same with bike races

I'd say that there is big prestige in having the record for most win in Roubiax, Ronde and G-W. Boonen is the most successful cobble rider in history, plus he has won the worlds.

 

[serfla]

Oh my bad thought you meant classics in general

No, my fault. I haven't underlined or marked in any way cobbled.
I think no one's questioning Contador's ability to win LBL, FW, Il Lombardia, San Sebastian or AGR, but it seems we'll never know.
So it's just belief.

The same omnipotent view of Contador you have, had Armstrong's fans of their idol. But they were even more drastic. They've believed he could take all 5 Monuments in a season... And a TDF, off course.
In Armstrong's defense - he did target some Classics while concentrating on the Tour and rode couple of times in support of his teammates.

 

[Panda Claws]

No, my fault. I haven't underlined or marked in any way cobbled.
I think no one's questioning Contador's ability to win LBL, FW, Il Lombardia, San Sebastian or AGR, but it seems we'll never know.
So it's just belief.

The same omnipotent view of Contador you have, had Armstrong's fans of their idol. But they were even more drastic. They've believed he could take all 5 Monuments in a season... And a TDF, off course.
In Armstrong's defense - he did target some Classics while concentrating on the Tour and rode couple of times in support of his teammates.

We can't really be sure if Contador could actually win LBL.

 

[serfla]

We can't really be sure if Contador could actually win LBL.

He has the ability, that's what I've said. But if he can or not - it seems well never know.

 

[El Pistolero]

Rodriguez surprisingly said he'd rather win the WC than the Tour de France.

It's not like a classics rider only has to perform at one day by the way. They need to keep their form at a high level from Milan-San Remo till Roubaix or LBL. That's a long period.

 

[Carols]

I'd say that there is big prestige in having the record for most win in Roubiax, Ronde and G-W. Boonen is the most successful cobble rider in history, plus he has won the worlds.

I'm not disputing that Boonen is a great classics rider and classics carry prestige! He is a special rider!!!

But just compare points/purses of classics to GTs and you can see the difference in class attached to each.

 

[El Pistolero]

I'm not disputing that Boonen is a great classics rider and classics carry prestige! He is a special rider!!!

But just compare points/purses of classics to GTs and you can see the difference in class attached to each.

Only the Tour I might add. Vuelta doesn't have all that much prestige compared to the other big races. Giro is building up prestige again in recent years.

 

[The Hitch]

just like the PN thread this just goes to show how long you have been watching cycling.

Funny how when i made this exact same comment to another poster, you told me off.

But for you its ok.

 

[El Pistolero]

Let's see

since 2006 because that's after the armstrong years

Vuelta:
2012 CONTADOR VELASCO Alberto
2011 COBO ACEBO Juan Jose
2010 NIBALI Vincenzo
2009 VALVERDE BELMONTE Alejandro
2008 CONTADOR VELASCO Alberto
2007 MENCHOV Denis
2006 VINOKOUROV Alexandre

Giro:
2012 HESJEDAL Ryder
2011 SCARPONI Michele
2010 BASSO Ivan
2009 MENCHOV Denis
2008 CONTADOR VELASCO Alberto
2007 DI LUCA Danilo
2006 BASSO Ivan

Tour:
2012 WIGGINS Bradley
2011 EVANS Cadel
2010 SCHLECK Andy
2009 CONTADOR VELASCO Alberto
2008 SASTRE CANDIL Carlos
2007 CONTADOR VELASCO Alberto
2006 PEREIRO SIO Oscar

And there is a fair chance that we get a new winner for every GT this year

Sure the amount of possible GT winners is limited compared to the amount of possible classic winners but it's not as predictable as you make it out to be.

You do realize the defending winner of a Giro or Vuelta usually doesn't defend his title because he wants to try the Tour?

At AGR the winner of the year before starts most of the time to defend his title. You can't compare it with lesser GTs like the Vuelta and Giro. Most of the time, the best riders also start in a classic like AGR.

In 2011 we had Andy Schleck, Frank Schleck, Cancellara, Gilbert, Rodriguez, Hesjedal, Freire, Chavanel, Cunego, Vinokourov, Jurgen van den Broeck, Daniel Moreno, Robert Gesink, Simon Gerrans, Kolobnev, Samuel Sanchez, etc

 

[The Hitch]

This type of comparison is crap though because we have 3 gts but so many classics.

To prove that anyone can win a classic yall had to go and dig up what is at best the 6th biggest classic (and 8th biggest one day race).

And 1 that at the end of the day is not a monument.

By the same token I can dig up a stage race thats not a gt but one of the top ones (arguably the 4th biggest one)

And find that a new rider has won the title every year, for, not 15 but 25 years

1988 Helmut Wechselberger (AUT) Malvor-Bottecchia-Sidi
1989 Beat Breu (SUI) Domex-Weinmann
1990 Sean Kelly (IRL) PDM-Concorde
1991 Luc Roosen (BEL) Tulip Computers
1992 Giorgio Furlan (ITA) Ceramiche Ariostea
1993 Marco Saligari (ITA) Ceramiche Ariostea
1994 Pascal Richard (SUI) GB-MG Maglificio
1995 Pavel Tonkov (RUS) Lampre-Ceramiche Panaria
1996 Peter Luttenberger (AUT) Carrera Jeans-Tassoni
1997 Christophe Agnolutto (FRA) Casino
1998 Stefano Garzelli (ITA) Mercatone Uno-Bianchi
1999 Francesco Casagrande (ITA) Vini Caldirola
2000 Oscar Camenzind (SUI) Lampre-Daikin
2001 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal
2002 Alex Zülle (SUI) Team Coast
2003 Alexandre Vinokourov (KAZ) Team Telekom
2004 Jan Ullrich (GER) T-Mobile Team
2005 Aitor González (ESP) Euskaltel-Euskadi
2006 Koldo Gil (ESP) Saunier Duval-Prodir
2007 Vladimir Karpets (RUS) Caisse d'Epargne
2008 Roman Kreuziger (CZE) Liquigas
2009 Fabian Cancellara (SUI) Team Saxo Bank
2010 Fränk Schleck (LUX) Team Saxo Bank
2011 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Team RadioShack
2012 Rui Costa (POR) Movistar Team
[

 

[LaFlorecita]

No, my fault. I haven't underlined or marked in any way cobbled.
I think no one's questioning Contador's ability to win LBL, FW, Il Lombardia, San Sebastian or AGR, but it seems we'll never know.
So it's just belief.

The same omnipotent view of Contador you have, had Armstrong's fans of their idol. But they were even more drastic. They've believed he could take all 5 Monuments in a season... And a TDF, off course.
In Armstrong's defense - he did target some Classics while concentrating on the Tour and rode couple of times in support of his teammates.

What I have always been one of the most conservative on this forum about Alberto's chances in the classics. Maybe I'm misunderstanding "omnipotent view"

 

[serfla]

What I have always been one of the most conservative on this forum about Alberto's chances in the classics. Maybe I'm misunderstanding "omnipotent view"

"He can win whatever he wants", that's the view.